Sacrifice for the good of the group

[Jarhyn]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

I'm not talking about situations where you have no power and the group forces you to do so, either by legal coercion or brute force , basically because the danger of the act of sacrifice rationally speaking has a better chance of survival than refusing the coercion into it.

Because you want individuals of the group to sacrifice for you.

When everyone in the group is willing to sacrifice in some way for the others, and forms of sacrifice are well represented across the gamut, then the group can stand up things like immune systems and such.

Coordinated response to threats involves selective labor towards sacrifice.

Want an army that protects you from the untoward advances of another culture on your means of survival?

Want folks to know that we will find those who disrupt our way of life?

Want to not get mugged in broad daylight?

Want to be able to get food while not growing it yourself?

Something must be sacrificed.

All of society is of the shape "everybody sacks little bit for 'me' directly, everyone gets a lot more than that from everyone else."

Some tend to over-value their contributions, and sacrifice little and take a lot, and to feel overly entitled, often blaming "takers" for their taking.

Some undervalue themselves and so are the opposite.

In almost all situations, economies of scale make this kind of sacrifice break zero-sum expectations, and limitations of opportunity to sacrifice even in presence of the benefit does for pretty much all the remaining zero-sum sacrifices.

The key is to contribute as much as you can after satisfying as much of your own needs as possible before taking.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

I sorta get what you're saying here.

Risking your life isn't the same as sacrificing your life. Especially not when you've got some skin in the game.

But still, taking a risk of death to protect other people is heroic. It's courageous. Of course, it depends on the context. A Russian in prison for murder risking his life on the battlefield in Ukraine isn't the same as the mayor in New Jersey risking his life running into a burning building.

It's all about context. The risks and rewards.
Tom

No--I'm not talking about risk vs sacrifice. Rather, whether the motivation is to help yourself or to help others. I'm saying it's not heroic when you would have taken the same course of action if alone. (To the extent that's meaningful--jumping the gunman when he's looking at someone else is obviously impossible if there isn't anybody else, but you could still jump him when he's distracted by an animal.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

Sure, he was in danger, but he could have tried to run instead of fighting off the gunman. Plus his actions saved the lives of others. So, to me, it's still takes a lot of courage to do what that young man did. I certainly would never have the courage to do that. I'm better at talking people out of doing a bad deed. When someone is actively shooting others, there's no opportunity to talk them down. It's either fight of flight. No?

If you're in a position to jump the gunman then running is almost certainly not a good option.

 

[Rhea]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

I'm not talking about situations where you have no power and the group forces you to do so, either by legal coercion or brute force , basically because the danger of the act of sacrifice rationally speaking has a better chance of survival than refusing the coercion into it.

I don’t think you’re obliged.
But I do think we’ve evolved to retain the impulse to do so, becuase a population that retains that impulse has better chances to pass on genes containing that impulse.

 

[Lion IRC]

To qualify as altruistic it should be voluntary.

 

[bilby]

To qualify as altruistic it should be voluntary.

So, not done at the command of a God, or with the intent of pleasing one?

I agree.

 

[Lion IRC]

God wants our altruism to be freely given.

Start a derail thread if you feel like doing a bible study on the subject.

2 Corinthians 9:7 - God Loves a Cheerful Giver

Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.

biblehub.com

 

[bilby]

God wants our altruism to be freely given.

So, if we do good things in order to please God, that's displeasing to God?

Perhaps, we should just do good things, without any input from any gods, churches, or holy texts.

It's a shame God is fictional; Apparently he would love me.

I don't give a shit what anyone thinks God wants.

 

[Lion IRC]

Nobody in this so-far secular thread mentioned God until you started the bait-and-switch goading.

Asking questions about God - look at the question marks ??? at the end of your sentences - then you disingenuously say..."I don't give a shit what anyone thinks God wants"

...not falling for it.

You would be at the front of the queue trying to get me infracted for derailing/preaching in the otherwise secular topic.

 

[Elixir]

..not falling for it.

You mean not getting it.
No, really.
Most of us (atheists) care almost as much about what you (theists) think god wants, as we do about whether you prefer fried eggs vs scrambled.

 

[Lion IRC]

..not falling for it.

You mean not getting it.
No, really.
Most of us (atheists) care almost as much about what you (theists) think god wants, as we do about whether you prefer fried eggs vs scrambled.

A person who didnt care wouldn't go out of their way to ask questions about exactly that.
You obviously didn't read the posts where I was specifically asked.

No, really. I was asked.

"So, if we do good things in order to please God, that's displeasing to God?"

So, not done at the command of a God, or with the intent of pleasing one?

Maybe you're "not getting it".

 

[Politesse]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

If you were obligated, it hardly counts as good at all. I don't you can take much credit for a moral action you only took out of a feeling of compulsion.

 

[Elixir]

Altruism in the animal kingdom has always been associated with reproductive success of a species. It should be no surprise that it should persist in an HSS population only a few tens of thousands of years removed from a tenuous survival situation.

 

[Elixir]

..not falling for it.

You mean not getting it.
No, really.
Most of us (atheists) care almost as much about what you (theists) think god wants, as we do about whether you prefer fried eggs vs scrambled.

A person who didnt care wouldn't go out of their way to ask questions about exactly that.

So … what was it, fried or scrambled?

Maybe you're "not getting it".

Perhaps you have missed the measure of my disinterest.
Altruism as a manifestation of a genetic proclivity emergent due to evolutionary pressures, is interesting.
What theists think their god wants … not so much.
That’s why my god is better than your god; it doesn’t bother people with its wants.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It highly depends on the situation, and the 'group'. If I was out in public and random shots just started flying about (a real risk in the US), I would protect any loved ones around and myself by taking cover as best as possible. I would certainly put myself over them as a body shield without hesitating.

In public, where I don't know any of the people around, it would depend more on the situation. Could I potentially save a lot of people by risking myself? I would probably try. I've had a fair amount of training (not military specifically, but years of martial arts with a lot of 'real world' scenario situations) and feel I can make the risk evaluation. If there's no chance in hell of me making a difference, but winding up dead or injured anyway, I'd just take cover as best I can.

FWIW, that's basically the gist of training we give to our students when we are talking about real world scenarios as well.

 

[Elixir]

It highly depends on the situation, and the 'group'. If I was out in public and random shots just started flying about (a real risk in the US), I would protect any loved ones around and myself by taking cover as best as possible. I would certainly put myself over them as a body shield without hesitating.

In public, where I don't know any of the people around, it would depend more on the situation. Could I potentially save a lot of people by risking myself? I would probably try. I've had a fair amount of training (not military specifically, but years of martial arts with a lot of 'real world' scenario situations) and feel I can make the risk evaluation. If there's no chance in hell of me making a difference, but winding up dead or injured anyway, I'd just take cover as best I can.

FWIW, that's basically the gist of training we give to our students when we are talking about real world scenarios as well.

A friend runs an outfit call "Learn to Return" in Alaska. It's mostly training related to wilderness survival, but the operative principle of risk evaluation and response and very much the same.
As an aside, he taught Sara Palin how to shoot a shotgun back around 2007.
"She's a nice person, but she's not allowed to be VP." made me laugh.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It highly depends on the situation, and the 'group'. If I was out in public and random shots just started flying about (a real risk in the US), I would protect any loved ones around and myself by taking cover as best as possible. I would certainly put myself over them as a body shield without hesitating.

In public, where I don't know any of the people around, it would depend more on the situation. Could I potentially save a lot of people by risking myself? I would probably try. I've had a fair amount of training (not military specifically, but years of martial arts with a lot of 'real world' scenario situations) and feel I can make the risk evaluation. If there's no chance in hell of me making a difference, but winding up dead or injured anyway, I'd just take cover as best I can.

FWIW, that's basically the gist of training we give to our students when we are talking about real world scenarios as well.

It also comes down to the risk of inaction. There are situations where acting might save others even though it does you no good. Grenade landed next to you, escape is impossible, diving on it has basically no effect on your prospects but can save others. Or hijackers storming the cockpit--the reasonable assumption is that if they gain access everyone's dead, but acting against them is very risky. I would expect the first people to act would be those with loved ones on the plane (as even success with certain death brings them benefit) but even if everyone was alone I would expect people would act.

 

[Rhea]

Yup, those re scenarios that Iwould expect people to act for the good of the group, and those are cases where we’ve seen it.