Science says Bible and Quran are equivalent

[popsthebuilder]

So you're conflating intolerance of God with those knowingly responsible for the worst atrocities of mankind with amoral traits. Got it. Tolerance and morality are not synonymous.

Nor is nonbeliever and ignorant.

So according to your "logic" tolerance is morality? And this is another reason I'm not interested in speaking with people who can't even take things seriously.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Yes. Tolerance for differing thoughts and opinions is a component of Morality. Not harming a person (especially not 'eternally') is also a component of Morality.
The speaker in those statements is expressing an immoral sentiment.

to ask if they are saying that tolerance IS morality is a childish response... childish because it belays a simplistic view of complex social constructs.

One cannot escape the fact that all of the religious writings of that age is filled with unacceptably atrocious sentiments. Just because the context of the surrounding text might have been about some kind act, or some notion of positive morality, does not excuse the evil sentiment.

I can write a story about charity and kindness to a group of people, and then include a death threat to all other groups. Would you excuse the death threat because is was shroud in kindness to a handful of people? of course you wouldn't.. .unless you are a psychopath, of course.

God is merciful and tolerant. However to be wholly tolerant of all things would be equivalent to Nt existing. I can tolerate a good bit of negativity, but witnessing harm to another turns me defensive pretty much without thought and instantly. If I defend another am I being amoral because I'm not tolerating cruelty. What is childish is saying that tolerance is equivalent to morality. If you can't see that then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to stop claiming a thing is childish as some failsafe defense from a good point such as tolerance and morality not being synonymous at all.

Tolerance is kin to indifference which is very close to chaos. None of which are moral on any level.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

God is merciful and tolerant. However to be wholly tolerant of all things would be equivalent to Nt existing. I can tolerate a good bit of negativity, but witnessing harm to another turns me defensive pretty much without thought and instantly. If I defend another am I being amoral because I'm not tolerating cruelty. What is childish is saying that tolerance is equivalent to morality. If you can't see that then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to stop claiming a thing is childish as some failsafe defense from a good point such as tolerance and morality not being synonymous at all.

Tolerance is kin to indifference which is very close to chaos. None of which are moral on any level.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I hate this theological argument. You've just created a logical structure where you can't lose. This is reducing God to a parlour game.

1) God stops evil

or

2) God is tolerant

Either way, you win. Which, logically, means that it is false. If you can't use logic to deduce anything then you haven't said anything meaningful.

 

[DBT]

God is merciful and tolerant.

That's proposition is not supported by verses that clearly show a lack of tolerance and a lack of mercy for the simple condition of not adhering to the faith, ie, not believing in the theological teachings of Islam.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God is merciful and tolerant.

That's proposition is not supported by verses that clearly show a lack of tolerance and a lack of mercy for the simple condition of not adhering to the faith, ie, not believing in the theological teachings of Islam.

There you go thinking that nonbeleiver refers to atheists again. How many times must you be told that unbeliever refers to those who know God's will, yet intentionally go against it while bringing others from it as well?

Read the book without your own Islam hates me glasses on, because regardless of how the people may or at not act, the Qur'an is clear on what that word means and it's clear about mercy among men and th mercy of GOD.
Not to be confused with blind tolerance regardless of actions. Non believer in the Qur'an is equivalent to those who knowingly blaspheme. It is the unforgiven sin. Stop acting like it refers to you, the ignorant, it a getting old, and was already played out.

Peace

Oh yeah, mercy is supported in the Qur'an at least 201 times.
Peace is supported no less than 97 times.


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God is merciful and tolerant. However to be wholly tolerant of all things would be equivalent to Nt existing. I can tolerate a good bit of negativity, but witnessing harm to another turns me defensive pretty much without thought and instantly. If I defend another am I being amoral because I'm not tolerating cruelty. What is childish is saying that tolerance is equivalent to morality. If you can't see that then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to stop claiming a thing is childish as some failsafe defense from a good point such as tolerance and morality not being synonymous at all.

Tolerance is kin to indifference which is very close to chaos. None of which are moral on any level.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I hate this theological argument. You've just created a logical structure where you can't lose. This is reducing God to a parlour game.

1) God stops evil

or

2) God is tolerant

Either way, you win. Which, logically, means that it is false. If you can't use logic to deduce anything then you haven't said anything meaningful.

Way to avoid my point by claiming I'm being illogical instead.

Let me help you out;
I didn't say God stops evil.
Pretty sure I said tolerance is NOT moral. So there you go.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I hate this theological argument. You've just created a logical structure where you can't lose. This is reducing God to a parlour game.

1) God stops evil

or

2) God is tolerant

Either way, you win. Which, logically, means that it is false. If you can't use logic to deduce anything then you haven't said anything meaningful.

Way to avoid my point by claiming I'm being illogical instead.

Let me help you out;
I didn't say God stops evil.
Pretty sure I said tolerance is NOT moral. So there you go.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

A positive statement can be expressed as a negation of the opposite. I just said the same thing as you as a negative statement. Just for clarity.


But ok fine, God doesn't stop evil = God doesn't exist. Logical problem solved.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Way to avoid my point by claiming I'm being illogical instead.

Let me help you out;
I didn't say God stops evil.
Pretty sure I said tolerance is NOT moral. So there you go.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

A positive statement can be expressed as a negation of the opposite. I just said the same thing as you as a negative statement. Just for clarity.


But ok fine, God doesn't stop evil = God doesn't exist. Logical problem solved.

How do you logically equate God allowing the freedom of creation to make its way through existence with God not existing in any way shape or form?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Malintent]

Yes. Tolerance for differing thoughts and opinions is a component of Morality. Not harming a person (especially not 'eternally') is also a component of Morality.
The speaker in those statements is expressing an immoral sentiment.

to ask if they are saying that tolerance IS morality is a childish response... childish because it belays a simplistic view of complex social constructs.

One cannot escape the fact that all of the religious writings of that age is filled with unacceptably atrocious sentiments. Just because the context of the surrounding text might have been about some kind act, or some notion of positive morality, does not excuse the evil sentiment.

I can write a story about charity and kindness to a group of people, and then include a death threat to all other groups. Would you excuse the death threat because is was shroud in kindness to a handful of people? of course you wouldn't.. .unless you are a psychopath, of course.

God is merciful and tolerant. However to be wholly tolerant of all things would be equivalent to Nt existing. I can tolerate a good bit of negativity, but witnessing harm to another turns me defensive pretty much without thought and instantly. If I defend another am I being amoral because I'm not tolerating cruelty. What is childish is saying that tolerance is equivalent to morality. If you can't see that then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to stop claiming a thing is childish as some failsafe defense from a good point such as tolerance and morality not being synonymous at all.

Tolerance is kin to indifference which is very close to chaos. None of which are moral on any level.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

What is childish is viewing things in black and white... "morality is not the same as tolerance". No. It is not "the same as" tolerance. Tolerance is a component of morality. Also, tolerance does not mean "complete and total tolerance of all things". an 'intolerant person" may tolerate some things... what makes someone insufficiently tolerant (intolerant to something) is a lack of sufficient tolerance.

The god character in all of the bibles is not sufficiently tolerant to be called morally good.

 

[skepticalbip]

That's proposition is not supported by verses that clearly show a lack of tolerance and a lack of mercy for the simple condition of not adhering to the faith, ie, not believing in the theological teachings of Islam.

There you go thinking that nonbeleiver refers to atheists again. How many times must you be told that unbeliever refers to those who know God's will, yet intentionally go against it while bringing others from it as well?

Read the book without your own Islam hates me glasses on, because regardless of how the people may or at not act, the Qur'an is clear on what that word means and it's clear about mercy among men and th mercy of GOD.
Not to be confused with blind tolerance regardless of actions. Non believer in the Qur'an is equivalent to those who knowingly blaspheme. It is the unforgiven sin. Stop acting like it refers to you, the ignorant, it a getting old, and was already played out.

Peace

Oh yeah, mercy is supported in the Qur'an at least 201 times.
Peace is supported no less than 97 times.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Indeed, the Qur'an tells us that apostates should be killed. You can see this as merciful but only if you have very different moral values than I do.

 

[Malintent]

There you go thinking that nonbeleiver refers to atheists again. How many times must you be told that unbeliever refers to those who know God's will, yet intentionally go against it while bringing others from it as well?

Read the book without your own Islam hates me glasses on, because regardless of how the people may or at not act, the Qur'an is clear on what that word means and it's clear about mercy among men and th mercy of GOD.
Not to be confused with blind tolerance regardless of actions. Non believer in the Qur'an is equivalent to those who knowingly blaspheme. It is the unforgiven sin. Stop acting like it refers to you, the ignorant, it a getting old, and was already played out.

Peace

Oh yeah, mercy is supported in the Qur'an at least 201 times.
Peace is supported no less than 97 times.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Indeed, the Qur'an tells us that apostates should be killed. You can see this as merciful but only if you have very different moral values than I do.

You are being too kind. The characters written about in the fiction that is "the" bible (whatever the name of the collection of horrific writings you wish to site) are just as petty and evil as the rulers of the authors' day.

The bible is taught similarly to how one would teach 20th century German history, if the Third Reich was the current day predominant political world leader. Revisionist, exclusionary, and painted with rosy colors that mask the most evil realities of their message and acts.

The Jews would have been fully exterminated, and today we would be convincing ourselves that the concentrations camps were merciful and good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

A positive statement can be expressed as a negation of the opposite. I just said the same thing as you as a negative statement. Just for clarity.


But ok fine, God doesn't stop evil = God doesn't exist. Logical problem solved.

How do you logically equate God allowing the freedom of creation to make its way through existence with God not existing in any way shape or form?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Aha... the life-as-a-test argument. The problem with this argument is that it's not really a fair test. People who due to geographical location end up in a religion or sect different enough from the "real" God will fail the test. It's a gimped race. Also, a lot of human behaviour is directed by instinct. Obviously... we're animals, and all animals are mostly ruled by instinct. We're not a clean slate at birth. Some of us suffer mental diseases. The latest research on paedophiles show that it's a result of a type of brain damage or brain anomaly. That isn't God giving their creation freedom. That's God directing people toward a grossly immoral life. Their choice is to give in to their urges, (and deal with that sense of shame) or be unhappy in the closet. That's not a fair choice.

There's also a purely logical problem. An omnipotent and omniscient agent has a choice about everything in the universe. An omnipotent agent can't grant freedom to anything. A universe with an omnipotent agent has only got a universe of puppets to that omnipotent being. There's lots of religious people who keep falling into this trap all the time. It's always been an unsolvable problem for Abrahamic religious people. If you want freedom for the creation you need to posit a non-ominipotent God. And I haven't even taken in the paradoxes. Omnipotence is an impossible just due to basic logic.

 

[popsthebuilder]

How do you logically equate God allowing the freedom of creation to make its way through existence with God not existing in any way shape or form?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Aha... the life-as-a-test argument. The problem with this argument is that it's not really a fair test. People who due to geographical location end up in a religion or sect different enough from the "real" God will fail the test. It's a gimped race. Also, a lot of human behaviour is directed by instinct. Obviously... we're animals, and all animals are mostly ruled by instinct. We're not a clean slate at birth. Some of us suffer mental diseases. The latest research on paedophiles show that it's a result of a type of brain damage or brain anomaly. That isn't God giving their creation freedom. That's God directing people toward a grossly immoral life. Their choice is to give in to their urges, (and deal with that sense of shame) or be unhappy in the closet. That's not a fair choice.

There's also a purely logical problem. An omnipotent and omniscient agent has a choice about everything in the universe. An omnipotent agent can't grant freedom to anything. A universe with an omnipotent agent has only got a universe of puppets to that omnipotent being. There's lots of religious people who keep falling into this trap all the time. It's always been an unsolvable problem for Abrahamic religious people. If you want freedom for the creation you need to posit a non-ominipotent God. And I haven't even taken in the paradoxes. Omnipotence is an impossible just due to basic logic.

Something with infinite power and knowledge can't be forced to use that power to your liking. That's what atheist can't seem to grasp.

You're entire argument is just a construct set up in your favor, in your mind, anyway.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Something with infinite power and knowledge can't be forced to use that power to your liking. That's what atheist can't seem to grasp.

You're entire argument is just a construct set up in your favor, in your mind, anyway.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

If there's an omnipotent agent in the world it has a choice, each time there's the merest change in a molecule to do something about it or not. Either way is a choice by the omnipotent agent. With an omnipotent agent in the world everything that happens, is by necessity by choice of that omnipotent agent. There cannot be any other free agent in such a universe. If God is omnipotent it cannot give us freedom. Which btw is a paradox. It's the same type of paradox as, can God create a stone so heavy it can't lift it.

I'm not sure how to break the logic down more. It's a pretty basic logical fuck-up of Christian theology. I suggest reading Thomas Aquinas. He took Christian theology about as far as it is possible to go. The problem is of course that his proofs are all asinine. What he does well is demonstrate how Christian theology is broken. Not that he realized that it was. But to anybody trained in logic it's pretty obvious.

Edit: Also, yes God has to use it's omnipotent power to my liking or God is evil. I will not respect an evil entity. That's not a heaven I'd aspire to get into. With a God like that I'd be aiming to get into hell where all the moral people will be.

 

[Malintent]

Aha... the life-as-a-test argument. The problem with this argument is that it's not really a fair test. People who due to geographical location end up in a religion or sect different enough from the "real" God will fail the test. It's a gimped race. Also, a lot of human behaviour is directed by instinct. Obviously... we're animals, and all animals are mostly ruled by instinct. We're not a clean slate at birth. Some of us suffer mental diseases. The latest research on paedophiles show that it's a result of a type of brain damage or brain anomaly. That isn't God giving their creation freedom. That's God directing people toward a grossly immoral life. Their choice is to give in to their urges, (and deal with that sense of shame) or be unhappy in the closet. That's not a fair choice.

There's also a purely logical problem. An omnipotent and omniscient agent has a choice about everything in the universe. An omnipotent agent can't grant freedom to anything. A universe with an omnipotent agent has only got a universe of puppets to that omnipotent being. There's lots of religious people who keep falling into this trap all the time. It's always been an unsolvable problem for Abrahamic religious people. If you want freedom for the creation you need to posit a non-ominipotent God. And I haven't even taken in the paradoxes. Omnipotence is an impossible just due to basic logic.

Something with infinite power and knowledge can't be forced to use that power to your liking. That's what atheist can't seem to grasp.

You're entire argument is just a construct set up in your favor, in your mind, anyway.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

If you are going to fall back on the "just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't good for you (or someone else), then you slide down a slippery slope of the incomprehensibility of this god, for which you also seem to know a great deal of what is demanded by him of you, which is logically flawed.

What Christians just can't seem to grasp is that the Problem of Evil is not related to the prayers of a football coach not being answered... The problem of evil makes reference to things that cannot have any good (unless starving babies with flies in their eyes are good.. are starving babies good - or only if they have flies in their eyes??)

Perhaps a parent has spanked you for being bad as a child.. and you grew up to appreciate how yoru parents handled you... what if they were still spanking you... forever and ever and ever... because you didn't finish that glass of milk? this is the kind of evil the god character is accused of in the bible.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Something with infinite power and knowledge can't be forced to use that power to your liking. That's what atheist can't seem to grasp.

You're entire argument is just a construct set up in your favor, in your mind, anyway.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

If you are going to fall back on the "just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't good for you (or someone else), then you slide down a slippery slope of the incomprehensibility of this god, for which you also seem to know a great deal of what is demanded by him of you, which is logically flawed.

What Christians just can't seem to grasp is that the Problem of Evil is not related to the prayers of a football coach not being answered... The problem of evil makes reference to things that cannot have any good (unless starving babies with flies in their eyes are good.. are starving babies good - or only if they have flies in their eyes??)

Perhaps a parent has spanked you for being bad as a child.. and you grew up to appreciate how yoru parents handled you... what if they were still spanking you... forever and ever and ever... because you didn't finish that glass of milk? this is the kind of evil the god character is accused of in the bible.

Don't know what bible you have comprehended. Or why people always want to assume someone is christian, or what football has to do with the One Creator GOD.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[DBT]

That's proposition is not supported by verses that clearly show a lack of tolerance and a lack of mercy for the simple condition of not adhering to the faith, ie, not believing in the theological teachings of Islam.

There you go thinking that nonbeleiver refers to atheists again. How many times must you be told that unbeliever refers to those who know God's will, yet intentionally go against it while bringing others from it as well?

It doesn't matter how many times you tell me, you were wrong the first time an wrong every time every time after that.

I even pointed out that it doesn't matter who it refers to, the attitude is not one of mercy or tolerance.

Plus, Many atheists do know what the Quran and the bible say about 'God's will, yet reject this on the basis of no evidence for the existence of this or that God.

Even worse, some of the verses specify that disbelief is worse than killing- hence killing an disbeliever is the lesser of two 'evils'

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

Furthermore, other verses specify that it is Allah who seals the hearts and ears of unbelievers:
“This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

Consequently the blame for disbelief lies at the feet of Allah, who hardens the hearts and minds of unbelievers (in the biblical tradition) and then punishes them for their 'transgression'

Where is this mercy?

Read the book without your own Islam hates me glasses on, because regardless of how the people may or at not act, the Qur'an is clear on what that word means and it's clear about mercy among men and th mercy of GOD.
Not to be confused with blind tolerance regardless of actions. Non believer in the Qur'an is equivalent to those who knowingly blaspheme. It is the unforgiven sin. Stop acting like it refers to you, the ignorant, it a getting old, and was already played out.

Peace

It's nothing to do with what I think or what I believe - a non existent god cannot hate me - but what the Quran actually says about unbelievers and the attitude that the Quran displays against unbelievers regardless of apostates or polytheists, or unbelievers in general ( Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing)... ....which cannot be rationalized away.

Oh yeah, mercy is supported in the Qur'an at least 201 times.
Peace is supported no less than 97 times.

Except for those who do not share the faith, or are not allied to Islam.

“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29

''To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.” Quran 2:89-2:90

“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51

 

[popsthebuilder]

There you go thinking that nonbeleiver refers to atheists again. How many times must you be told that unbeliever refers to those who know God's will, yet intentionally go against it while bringing others from it as well?

It doesn't matter how many times you tell me, you were wrong the first time an wrong every time every time after that.

I even pointed out that it doesn't matter who it refers to, the attitude is not one of mercy or tolerance.

Plus, Many atheists do know what the Quran and the bible say about 'God's will, yet reject this on the basis of no evidence for the existence of this or that God.

Even worse, some of the verses specify that disbelief is worse than killing- hence killing an disbeliever is the lesser of two 'evils'

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

Furthermore, other verses specify that it is Allah who seals the hearts and ears of unbelievers:
“This Book is not to be doubted…. As for the unbelievers, it is the same whether or not you forewarn them; they will not have faith. God has set a seal upon their hearts and ears; their sight is dimmed and grievous punishment awaits them.” Quran 2:1/2:6-2:10

Consequently the blame for disbelief lies at the feet of Allah, who hardens the hearts and minds of unbelievers (in the biblical tradition) and then punishes them for their 'transgression'

Where is this mercy?

Read the book without your own Islam hates me glasses on, because regardless of how the people may or at not act, the Qur'an is clear on what that word means and it's clear about mercy among men and th mercy of GOD.
Not to be confused with blind tolerance regardless of actions. Non believer in the Qur'an is equivalent to those who knowingly blaspheme. It is the unforgiven sin. Stop acting like it refers to you, the ignorant, it a getting old, and was already played out.

Peace

It's nothing to do with what I think or what I believe - a non existent god cannot hate me - but what the Quran actually says about unbelievers and the attitude that the Quran displays against unbelievers regardless of apostates or polytheists, or unbelievers in general ( Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing)... ....which cannot be rationalized away.

Oh yeah, mercy is supported in the Qur'an at least 201 times.
Peace is supported no less than 97 times.

Except for those who do not share the faith, or are not allied to Islam.

“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29

''To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the unbelievers.” Quran 2:89-2:90

“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51

Evidently you have no interest in understanding the Qur'an. That's fine. It's your right. I could go through again and show you what those texts mean within context, but I really am tired of wasting my time.

Just no that everything you quoted is again taken way out of context.

As far as your heart being hardened; yes all is of GOD, but to condemn yourself is not his will. You may be atheist for the majority of your life, all of it, or not for much longer. All is of GOD, and you are free.

I sincerely hope that you find whatever it is you are searching for. Your conscience will lead you to the truth.

With humility and compassion,
Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[iolo]

As far as I know 'science' has made no pronouncement on either of these texts, not do I at all understand in what way they are meant to be 'equivalent'.

 

[DrZoidberg]

As far as I know 'science' has made no pronouncement on either of these texts, not do I at all understand in what way they are meant to be 'equivalent'.

Quite correctly. "Science" isn't a person and can't talk for anybody. It's an expression. "An academic paper does textual analysis of the Bible and Quran and finds them equivalent" didn't fit into the little title box, nor does it have the punch to it that "Science says Bible and Quran are equivalent" has. But well spotted. Points to you.

 

[Malintent]

If you are going to fall back on the "just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean it isn't good for you (or someone else), then you slide down a slippery slope of the incomprehensibility of this god, for which you also seem to know a great deal of what is demanded by him of you, which is logically flawed.

What Christians just can't seem to grasp is that the Problem of Evil is not related to the prayers of a football coach not being answered... The problem of evil makes reference to things that cannot have any good (unless starving babies with flies in their eyes are good.. are starving babies good - or only if they have flies in their eyes??)

Perhaps a parent has spanked you for being bad as a child.. and you grew up to appreciate how yoru parents handled you... what if they were still spanking you... forever and ever and ever... because you didn't finish that glass of milk? this is the kind of evil the god character is accused of in the bible.

Don't know what bible you have comprehended. Or why people always want to assume someone is christian, or what football has to do with the One Creator GOD.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Excuse me, then.. I meant to say "Judeo-Christian god"... the god of the Abrahamic religious... the topic of this discussion.

What football has to do with this particular god is that coaches always pray to win... so 50% of all those prayers go rejected. however this is dismissed as trivial, because it is just a game. The problem of evil, however, is no game. theists confuse unanswered trivial prayers with the problem of evil, and disregard the pure evil that does exist.
The problem of evil is relevant only to gods that are created both omnipotent and omniscient... which all versions of the j-c god are. That evil exists at all is a problem for the 'goodness' of that type of god character.