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Serena Williams controversy

So ? It's certainly entertaining but does that happen these days ?

You rarely see it today because John McEnroe is retired. Even when McEnroe played very few male tennis players acted like that. When one did it was very rare and they usually apologized afterward. McEnroe never apologized. And that's why even today a lot of men still admire him.

Interesting story bro, but what does that have to do with Serena's complaints about the game now ?
 
So ? It's certainly entertaining but does that happen these days ?

You rarely see it today because John McEnroe is retired. Even when McEnroe played very few male tennis players acted like that. When one did it was very rare and they usually apologized afterward. McEnroe never apologized. And that's why even today a lot of men still admire him.

Interesting story bro, but what does that have to do with Serena's complaints about the game now ?

John McEnroe's outbursts = "entertaining"
Serena Williams' outbursts = "scary"

You see the double standard?
 
Women’s Tennis Association Slams Umpire for Unfair Treatment of Serena Williams at U.S. Open

It's gathering momentum. I reckon that umpire has seen his last match at high level.

The Women’s Tennis Association issued a statement Sunday in defense of Serena Williams, the tennis superstar who lost the U.S. Open after a contentious, controversial spat with the match’s umpire, Carlos Ramos. After Ramos issued three penalties against Williams in the second set, many argued that his decisions were sexist and unfair. WTA CEO Steve Simon agreed in the organization’s statement on the matter, which was posted to Twitter Sunday night. “The WTA believes that there should be no difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men vs. women and is committed to working with the sport to ensure that all players are treated the same,” the organization wrote. “We do not believe that this was done last night.” The International Tennis Foundation—which governs tennis’ rules—will not issue a statement on Ramos because he was not working on behalf of their organization when refereeing that match, according to a tweet from BBC sports editor Dan Roan.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/women...atment-of-serena-williams-at-us-open?ref=home
 
Interesting story bro, but what does that have to do with Serena's complaints about the game now ?

John McEnroe's outbursts = "entertaining"
Serena Williams' outbursts = "scary"

You see the double standard?

No I fucking don't.

Those are two words used in this very thread to describe the outbursts of both. And one of them was yours. The only time that "entertaining" is no different than "scary" is when I'm watching a horror movie, not when I'm watching a tennis match.
 
Men would have stopped badgering poor umpire long before she did (she actually did not)

John McEnroe?
He never was as bad as Serena here. She was hysterical and frankly scary and unpredictable. With men I think it's pretty simple and predictable and more often than not they don't really mean it, it's part of the game.
That's a difference.

Ah, the "H" word. What a surprise.

I watched many of McEnroe's "performances"; even though I admired his skill as a tennis player, I would gladly have reached through the screen and strangled him on many occasions. Instead, I had to sit and wonder why the officials didn't penalize or even disqualify him. What Williams did isn't anywhere close to what McEnroe got away with on a regular basis.

The penalties were "correct", in that they followed the letter of the law. However, they were not fair, because the law is routinely bent or ignored for the male players.

BTW, Jimmy Connors was McEnroe's precursor; bad, but not quite as bad. Before Connors was Ilie Nastase, whose nickname "Nasty" was quite accurate. He accumulated a number of penalties and bans, having played before the era where disruptive behavior became almost a normal part of the game. He was the pioneer. Based on his recent behavior and comments, he hasn't changed a bit.
 
I think using the list of 13 worst outbursts is a good idea to understand where we are with this. Serena has two on the list. McEnroe also has two on the list. McEnroe's highest is greater than Serena's worst outburst. McEnroe's second highest is worse than Serena's second highest. So, there you go, McEnroe worse outbursts...at the very least it cannot be said that Serena is worse than McEnroe. That's absurd. Now, as far as gender, one can look at the list and see a lot of men's names. So this gender stuff is also a bunch of malarkey (whatever that means).
 
Wow...the row deepens. I feel so sorry for Naomi Osaka......forgotten in all the noise....

Would a male player have been treated the same way? Not likely. The Women’s Tennis Association and the U.S. Tennis Association both released statements supporting Williams. (TheGuardian notesthat while Ramos is a stickler for rules, he has “never penalized a player a game in such a high-stakes match” before.) WTA president Steve Simon noted the “difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men versus women” and USTA president Katrina Adams called out the “double standard” in treatment in an interview with ESPN. “I know what Serena did and her behavior was not welcome,” she said. “It’s a judgment call to give that last penalty because she called him a thief. They’ve been called a lot more.”
Adams’s comment speaks to a culture in which women who act out are punished while men are written off as “bad boys” who are just doing what boys do. There is plenty to back up her claim: Male tennis pros James Blake and Andy Roddick both admitted on Twitter to having said far worse to umpires and having no real repercussions. In the interest of keeping the discussion alive, we rounded up a few more examples here:

  • Novak Djokovic got into an argument with the same umpire, Ramos, at the French Open, and called him “crap”. While he received multiple warnings, he did not have any points or games docked.
  • Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos at the 2017 French Open. He got two verbal warnings, but did not have a point or game docked.
  • Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity at the U.S. Open and then called the umpire a “son of a bitch.” Play went on.
  • Marcos Baghdatis smashed four rackets during the 2012 Australian Open, but didn’t lose a point or a game. He did have to pay a $1,250 fine.
  • Nick Kyrgios got in a yelling match with Ramos at the 2018 Australian Open, but no code violations were issued.
  • Andy Murray got a code violation for allegedly calling the same umpire, Ramos, “stupid” at the Rio Olympics. Murray claims he called the umpiring stupid.
  • Novak Djokovic screamed at Ramos during the 2018 Wimbledon tournament, threw his racket, and even pretended to throw the ball at the umpire, but never lost a point or a game.
  • Andy Murray kicked a ball at an umpire’s head during a 2016 match, but did not get a code or point penalty.
To be fair, it’s not just men: Coco Vanderweghe was issued several warningsand a code violation for yelling at the umpire because there were no bananas on the court, and then calling her opponent a “fucking bitch.” She did not lose points or a game.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9023435...-ask-these-tennis-bad-boys-who-did-much-worse
 
The "sexism" claims are heavily relying upon comparisons what McEnroe and Conners et al, did 30 years ago. The comparisons and claims are invalid for multiple reasons.

First of all, claims that these male players got away with it are completely false. The very first video I just searched for "McEnroe Outburst" and the first youtube video that came up youtube showed him getting a point penalty for calling the Ump a "jerk" then a game penalty for hitting his own water cup with his racket. The second video showed him getting a point penalty simply for cursing in reaction to an objectively incorrect call that cost him a match point. Then the third video was his disqualification from the Australian Open again for merely cursing after being given a point penalty for racket abuse. These are just the penalties that happened to come up randomly in the first 3 youtube videos I watch of "McEnroe Outburts", which means there are tons more. He was regularly penalized and often more harshly and for doing less than Serena did on Saturday.

Second, Serenas verbal abuse was notably worse than most of what these men did, and I cannot find a single instance where a man engaged in comparable abuse and was not penalized. As seen in the above videos, mostly what McEnroe did was use curse words while telling the Ump they were wrong (e.g., "Bullshit, that ball was fucking out!"). That isn't even abuse toward the Umpire or an insult, it is merely crude language. Telling an Umpire that they are a liar and a thief is to insult their honesty and integrity at the very heart of their job. It is about the worst thing you can imply about a referee or umpire in the context of sports. That is why the Official Grand Slam Rule Book lists accusations of dishonesty and is the only specific type of insult listed in it's definition of "verbal abuse":

[P]" verbal abuse is defined as a statement about an
official, opponent, sponsor, spectator or other person that implies dishonesty or is
derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive."[/P]


Not to mention, Serena directly threatened Ramos's job and livelihood by saying "You will never ever ever be on another court of mine as long as you live." Beyond any violation of abuse rules, that is obviously going to get a strong reaction from an Umpire.
So, those claiming sexism need to show a male not getting penalized after directly accusing an umpire of deliberate dishonesty and threatening their job. I doubt there is such an instance or anything comparable without any penalty given.


A third factor that makes comparisons to McEnroe, Conners, etc. is that tennis generally is less tolerant today of abuse towards officials. In fact, it began to change at the end of McEnroes career. Most of his penalties seem to have come in the second half of his career and his first Grand Slam disqualification was at the end in 1990, even though his actions were not any worse than earlier.

Plus, Ramos in particular is well known for being more strict, touchy, and inconsistent with penalties against male players too, including Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic who accused Ramos of "double standards" in giving him but not his opponent a racket abuse violation.

A fourth factor that makes the comparisons invalid is that Serenas attack on the Umpire was unlike most of McEnroe's or other players outbursts who were reacting to either objectively wrong calls or calls they sincerely thought were wrong. Serena attacked Ramos for noticing the objective fact that her coach was giving her coaching signals, which she clearly saw (she described her coaches hand gestures during her tirade) and then falsely accusing Ramos of calling her a cheater which he never did nor implied (as the announcers accurately noted, the rule is about the coach coaching and not whether the player is trying to get coaching). Umpires know that they sometimes miss a call and thus are going to allow some venting over it. But when a player goes on a repeated tirade like that for getting warned for such an objectively clear code violation, it is going to shorten their fuse on subsequent violations. Plus, whether the ump got a call wrong is going to impact how fans react to the player outburst.

Most of these factors not only make comparisons to McEnroe but even to other more recent player outbursts invalid. What Serena said to get a game penalty was worse, more abusive and insulting, and less triggered in understandable anger a line-call than what other players (male and female) have said that did not get a similar penalty, and even worse than some that got worse penalties like disqualification.
 
So ? It's certainly entertaining but does that happen these days ?

You rarely see it today because John McEnroe is retired. Even when McEnroe played very few male tennis players acted like that. When one did it was very rare and they usually apologized afterward. McEnroe never apologized. And that's why even today a lot of men still admire him.
So are you claiming it doesn’t happen or just that the better tennis players don’t do that?
 
Already, there is a video of various white male tennis players engaging in the self-same behavior.

Evidently, such behavior is far more common than I suspected, as I'd never heard of the incidents so clearly shown. One guy bashed one racket up and then calmly took out a second and bashed it up....

So....It seems that the only reason that this incident gets any more press than others is that she is female and non-white. Is that right?

Isn't y'all getting excited over this rather typical incident more racist than the incident itself?

FFS, people.

When you get used to winning all the time, it is exceedingly frustrating when it is demonstrated to you that you are no longer at the top of your game.

Yes, it was unprofessional. But it was hardly unusual.
 
Wow...the row deepens. I feel so sorry for Naomi Osaka......forgotten in all the noise....

Would a male player have been treated the same way? Not likely. The Women’s Tennis Association and the U.S. Tennis Association both released statements supporting Williams. (TheGuardian notesthat while Ramos is a stickler for rules, he has “never penalized a player a game in such a high-stakes match” before.) WTA president Steve Simon noted the “difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men versus women” and USTA president Katrina Adams called out the “double standard” in treatment in an interview with ESPN. “I know what Serena did and her behavior was not welcome,” she said. “It’s a judgment call to give that last penalty because she called him a thief. They’ve been called a lot more.”
Adams’s comment speaks to a culture in which women who act out are punished while men are written off as “bad boys” who are just doing what boys do. There is plenty to back up her claim: Male tennis pros James Blake and Andy Roddick both admitted on Twitter to having said far worse to umpires and having no real repercussions. In the interest of keeping the discussion alive, we rounded up a few more examples here:

  • Novak Djokovic got into an argument with the same umpire, Ramos, at the French Open, and called him “crap”. While he received multiple warnings, he did not have any points or games docked.
  • Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos at the 2017 French Open. He got two verbal warnings, but did not have a point or game docked.
  • Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity at the U.S. Open and then called the umpire a “son of a bitch.” Play went on.
  • Marcos Baghdatis smashed four rackets during the 2012 Australian Open, but didn’t lose a point or a game. He did have to pay a $1,250 fine.
  • Nick Kyrgios got in a yelling match with Ramos at the 2018 Australian Open, but no code violations were issued.
  • Andy Murray got a code violation for allegedly calling the same umpire, Ramos, “stupid” at the Rio Olympics. Murray claims he called the umpiring stupid.
  • Novak Djokovic screamed at Ramos during the 2018 Wimbledon tournament, threw his racket, and even pretended to throw the ball at the umpire, but never lost a point or a game.
  • Andy Murray kicked a ball at an umpire’s head during a 2016 match, but did not get a code or point penalty.
To be fair, it’s not just men: Coco Vanderweghe was issued several warningsand a code violation for yelling at the umpire because there were no bananas on the court, and then calling her opponent a “fucking bitch.” She did not lose points or a game.

https://www.fastcompany.com/9023435...-ask-these-tennis-bad-boys-who-did-much-worse

All of these are invalid comparisons for the reasons stated in my above post, especially that cursing is not nearly the level of insult that calling an umpire a liar and a thief is. And many of the listed violations were the players first violation, whereas Serena had already gotten a coaching violation warning and was allowed to berate the Umpire for minutes about getting this valid warning prior to getting her first actual point violation for racket abuse. In addition, other instances on the list are just made up lies and yellow journalism. Nadal never threatened Ramos, which is why that clickbait site does not quote anything he said that would qualify as any kind of violation, in contrast to Serena's direct and repeated accusation of dishonesty which is the most clearly listed type of verbal abuse in the rule book.

Oh, and I don't think any players on that list have a history of making direct in their face violent threats to linesperson's. An act for which she is still claiming to be the real victim of bias against her.

The numerous instances of point and game penalties, and even match disqualifications of men, including McEnroe for offenses that were less than what Serena said prove the conclusion of the article wrong. Men have and would get treated the same for comparable offenses.
The fact that neither men nor women always get the same penalty for the same action (especially when the contexts are widely different) only shows that umpires are not all the same and are not internally consistent. It doesn't at all imply that Serena's gender played any role and her completely warranted penalty. In fact, Serena herself has not gotten penalized for similar actions in the past, so how does that jive with the "sexism" theory?
 
Yes, that was one thing which bothered me. The first violation was to the coach (not Serena) for signalling. As far as I'm aware, the coach has since admitted that he was coaching from the stands, which is not allowed. And yes, during the tirade that followed this (apparently valid) warning, Serena acknowledged that she had seen the signals.

At that point, what was she complaining about? Because that's what got the ball rolling.

It seems odd if the coach admits he's giving coaching signals, the player acknowledges that she saw them, but goes off on one claiming explicitly that it wasn't coaching (she said 'you need to make an announcement that I didn't get coaching')? Does not add up. She even said something like, 'when he gives me the thumbs up, he's just ...(something something I couldn't quite make out). But he wasn't just giving a thumbs up, in the footage he was doing something where both his palms faced each other and he was moving them. Was Serena not being honest, at the outset of the controversy?
 
I haven't read that article, but if BJK has evidence that, for example, men or their coaches are less likely to be penalised for equivalent infractions then she might have a point. Without such evidence it's hard to know.

The general idea that women and women of colour are treated differently (in a non-benign way) is not too hard to agree with, but how much if at all is it relevant here?

I certainly recall John McEnroe for example getting almost routinely penalised for such behaviour. Noting that the rules and codes may have changed since then also.

You're not very good at this outrage thing. You're not supposed to apply logic and reason.

The part I don't get is that Serena was playing a "woman of colour". It's not like the call benefited some white dude.

Doesn't have to benefit a white dude directly.

White people are benefited whenever persons of color are penalized because of the color of their skin. It doesn't have to be direct nor sought after. I know that I have never even one time been questioned as to whether I belonged in a certain place, or in a certain class or whether I was looking at a home in the 'right' neighborhood. I'm white and white is the de facto best to be.

Men are benefited whenever women are penalized because of their gender. I have been told to my face that I did not 'need' as much money as a male would need. As though bread and rent and gas cost less for women than for men. For one thing. I have been told that I didn't 'need' or 'belong' in a certain field because I am female. I've been told that women aren't interested in STEM right here on this board--although all of my sisters and I all work in STEM fields as well as at least half of my co-workers are female.

Persons of color are judged more harshly in the US and most of the world because of the color of their skin. They're perceived as being more of a threat, more likely to be criminal, their pain and other medical symptoms are overlooked or under examined because of the color of their skin. When they achieve the highest levels in their fields (athletics for men aside), it is assumed and widely attributed to affirmative action rather than their own talent, hard work and sacrifice. Just for starters.
 
As though bread and rent and gas cost less for women than for men. For one thing.
That's actually a medical fact than women on average need 20-30% less calories than men with the same weight. Why do you make a controversy out of it?
I have been told that I didn't 'need' or 'belong' in a certain field because I am female. I've been told that women aren't interested in STEM right here on this board
Yes, that was me, this is also a simple fact, an observation, accepted by most women actually. Does not mean that no women are interested in STEM. You should understand statistics, you claim to be into STEM.
--although all of my sisters and I all work in STEM fields as well as at least half of my co-workers are female.
You must have a lot of sisters to make it statistically significant. You are denying accepted statistical facts. Women are underrepresented in STEM, period.
 
Yes, that was one thing which bothered me. The first violation was to the coach (not Serena) for signalling. As far as I'm aware, the coach has since admitted that he was coaching from the stands, which is not allowed. And yes, during the tirade that followed this (apparently valid) warning, Serena acknowledged that she had seen the signals.

At that point, what was she complaining about? Because that's what got the ball rolling.

It seems odd if the coach admits he's giving coaching signals, the player acknowledges that she saw them, but goes off on one claiming explicitly that it wasn't coaching (she said 'you need to make an announcement that I didn't get coaching')? Does not add up. She even said something like, 'when he gives me the thumbs up, he's just ...(something something I couldn't quite make out). But he wasn't just giving a thumbs up, in the footage he was doing something where both his palms faced each other and he was moving them. Was Serena not being honest, at the outset of the controversy?
So you admit there is a difference. Most of the men players in these youtubes have short outbursts then after official explains them they realize they were wrong. Here we have Serena doubling down after each episode, this is what is called being hysterical, she simply does not listen and all your good explanations have an opposite effect - make it worse.
 
Yes, that was one thing which bothered me. The first violation was to the coach (not Serena) for signalling. As far as I'm aware, the coach has since admitted that he was coaching from the stands, which is not allowed. And yes, during the tirade that followed this (apparently valid) warning, Serena acknowledged that she had seen the signals.

At that point, what was she complaining about? Because that's what got the ball rolling.

It seems odd if the coach admits he's giving coaching signals, the player acknowledges that she saw them, but goes off on one claiming explicitly that it wasn't coaching (she said 'you need to make an announcement that I didn't get coaching')? Does not add up. She even said something like, 'when he gives me the thumbs up, he's just ...(something something I couldn't quite make out). But he wasn't just giving a thumbs up, in the footage he was doing something where both his palms faced each other and he was moving them. Was Serena not being honest, at the outset of the controversy?
So you admit there is a difference. Most of the men players in these youtubes have short outbursts then after official explains them they realize they were wrong. Here we have Serena doubling down after each episode, this is what is called being hysterical, she simply does not listen and all your good explanations have an opposite effect - make it worse.

So, how would one be able to objectively evaluate your assertion? Who is bias free enough to do it?

I have seen peoplle who attack/defend verbally and just think that by not stopping they will win the argument. Some blacks do it in a very particular way ("what did I do, what did I do, what did I do?") and I see them say it in police arrest videos. But there are also whites doing this too.

It must work sometimes, or else no one would do it.

Best example is from Sexy Beast



Basically it is badgering or buying time and distraction.
 
It has been my experience both males and females pf any skin color and ethnicity can be jerks, assholes, tempermental, and petty.

She was loosing and lost control. I am tired of hearing every time a woman or a minority fouls up it has to be bias.


McEnroe was notorious for tirades and was a draw for tennis, he was sanctioned a number of times. Some men were not, others were not. We'd need to see the history of female sanctions.

https://people.com/sports/male-on-court-meltdowns-tennis-history/
 
So ? It's certainly entertaining but does that happen these days ?

You rarely see it today because John McEnroe is retired. Even when McEnroe played very few male tennis players acted like that. When one did it was very rare and they usually apologized afterward. McEnroe never apologized. And that's why even today a lot of men still admire him.
So are you claiming it doesn’t happen or just that the better tennis players don’t do that?

Allow me to let Mr. McEnroe explain for himself from an interview he did with New York Times as recently as 2015:

"Ironically what people come up to me about the most now is people missing the personality and sort of the confrontation.”

McEnroe says that when he takes on players in matches now, he can hear the fans yelling his signature phrase, “You cannot be serious”; and can sense the frustration in the stands if he does not deliver an outburst.


“They’re disappointed,” he said. “And so that’s sort of a weird dynamic, to put it mildly — that I’m actually getting paid extra for things I used to get fined for.”

So John McEnroe himself admits that he is loved more even today for his court antics and not for the fact that he actually was a really great player. And as to why players today no longer follow his antics? He has an explanation that has nothing to do with a change of attitude but with electronic video review technology:

He also believes today’s technology would have helped him and rejects the theory that the benefits of his conflict-driven approach in terms of self-motivation or distraction to opponents were outweighed by the negative in terms of the energy wasted and the resentment generated. “I think there’s no question I would have been a better player with it,” he said.

Loopholes and the potential for conflict still exist: See Serena Williams’s threatening a lineswoman at the 2009 United States Open after being called for a foot fault, one facet of the rules that is still not covered by electronic surveillance. And temperamental players still exist: the Australian Nick Kyrgios was fined for racket abuse and an audible obscenity during his first-round victory at this Australian Open.

I actually feel sorry for McEnroe in a way. Loved for his court antics that distracted from the fact that he was a really great player. Serena on the other hand will be hated for her antics despite being a great player.
 
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