Should the House begin impeachment hearings?

[ZiprHead]

Agreed.

Impeachment will put the GOP's hypocrisy on full display. Not only helpful in the presidential race, but senate races too.

 

[JohnG]

I am astounded he is still in office.

 

[Terrell]

No. Use the information against him in the 2020 election. I highly doubt that there will be the votes to remove Trump from office.

Why can't they do both?

It's possible, if not probable, that a failed attempt to remove him from office may actually make him stronger. I think we've got a better chance of getting rid of Trump via the election. The Republicans are likely to be unified in the Senate, and the solid Republican or Republican leaning voters motivated to keep him in office if that occurs (an F you to the Dems). I don't see the Senate being willing to remove him unless their own political futures, due to their constituents being outraged, are put in peril.

 

[ZiprHead]

No. Use the information against him in the 2020 election. I highly doubt that there will be the votes to remove Trump from office.

Why can't they do both?

It's possible, if not probable, that a failed attempt to remove him from office may actually make him stronger. I think we've got a better chance of getting rid of Trump via the election. The Republicans are likely to be unified in the Senate, and the solid Republican or Republican leaning voters motivated to keep him in office if that occurs (an F you to the Dems). I don't see the Senate being willing to remove him unless their own political futures, due to their constituents being outraged, are put in peril.

I addressed that in post number 7 above. You are welcome to address those points.

 

[ZiprHead]

Speaking of Republican hypocrisy...

Twitter thread with a clip each of Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, and Chuck Grassley talking about how a president lying or obstructing justice while in office is a big deal

 

[Terrell]

It's possible, if not probable, that a failed attempt to remove him from office may actually make him stronger. I think we've got a better chance of getting rid of Trump via the election. The Republicans are likely to be unified in the Senate, and the solid Republican or Republican leaning voters motivated to keep him in office if that occurs (an F you to the Dems). I don't see the Senate being willing to remove him unless their own political futures, due to their constituents being outraged, are put in peril.

I addressed that in post number 7 above. You are welcome to address those points.

See I don't think it will matter. Remember this is a guy that carried Utah, even though his lifestyle as known to the public, would be against what conservative Mormons would approve of. There was a 3rd party conservative candidate that was on the ballot that they could have voted for if it were really about values & not about winning. If you don't win, you don't get to install your policies. You still might not if the other party is successful at thwarting your plans.

I don't think that the Republicans will be in a position that they will be losing their seats, absent far more than this. I think that the country is too polarized to hold said Senators accountable by tossing them out on their behinds in a heavily Red state. Perhaps if they are challenged, from the right, by a primary opponent.

I do think that drip, drip, drip, of that information may persuade enough voters in swing states to put Trump out of office. I simply think that the best odds of removing Trump is in the 2020 election.

As to Fox, who says that they cover it at all? What's their incentive to deviate from the Trump line, especially if the other Republicans fall in line behind Trump.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Yes, they should. If the actions outlined in the Mueller Report aren’t impeachable, then what the hell is?

This is exactly my position, too. I understand that the Republican-controlled Senate will likely never remove Trump. Republican Senators would be committing political suicide to do so. It is also going to be difficult to muster enough votes in the House to send impeachment articles to the Senate. Nevertheless, impeachment is the only remedy afforded by the Constitution to stop a tyrannical president who abuses his powers. That is exactly why there is an impeachment option in the Constitution in the first place. Never has there been a president who deserved impeachment more than Donald Trump.

What is the consequence of not impeaching Trump? It is the precedent that it sets for future presidents. They will be able to ride roughshod over the law, because they will have a textbook example of how to do it. Even if impeachment fails, we need the precedent to be that it is still a viable option in the future. And it won't be, if future lawmakers use this precedent to say that impeachment hearings are pointless and bound to hurt those who challenge a sitting president. What will stop future presidents from taking bribes, blocking investigations, shifting money around to pay for projects not authorized, and going after anyone who stands in their way? Trump is a phony and an incompetent, but he is actually getting away with pretty much anything he wants. An impeachment hearing, even if it fails ultimately, still needs to remain as a credible threat to misconduct in office.

Both of theses ^^

Plus, the key to actually removing him from office is not about his core supporters; it's about the swing, which, right now, is upwards of 41% potential (i.e., he only has 59% of Republicans who "strongly approve", and that's not counting the Independents, who are even less in his camp, with only 15% who "strongly approve").

And the reason that's key is because of the vulnerable Republicans in the Senate who are up for re-election. The more Trump's criminal actions are detailed and revealed, the larger that Republican swing will become and that's the ballgame in regard to Republican Senators who have their seats to lose (just as we saw in the midterms).

That isn't going to go away with a deeper dig into Trump's criminality, unless it were to vindicate him. Which clearly it will not, as Mueller pointed out. That's the whole purpose of his so-called "road map" for Congress in the conclusion section of the report. Mueller has literally spelled it out to the House, this is the way you'll get him.

As to the idea that it would only drive the Republican swing back toward supporting Trump, how? Sympathy for the devil? The whole reason they are among the swing is that they do not approve of his Presidency.

How would revealing even more details about his criminal and unethical actions have the reverse effect that already drove them away to begin with?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't waste their time on futility. Forcing a vote won't help anything.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Don't waste their time on futility. Forcing a vote won't help anything.

No, but airing Trump's dirty laundry in yet another venue should drive him mega squirrelly... could be fun to see what happens.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Don't waste their time on futility. Forcing a vote won't help anything.

That's simply not a legitimate argument to make, regardless of your personal feelings. It's like saying, "Well, the jury probably won't vote to convict a white murderer, so why even bother forcing a trial?"

A Special Prosecutor has stated he cannot exonerate the President of wrongdoing; that only Congress can exonerate him. Which means that, technically, right now, there is a criminal in the WH. Iow, he stands guilty due to a finding of "no exoneration."

It seems to me, that, legally, there is no other option but to impeach. If the House does not, then they have jettisoned their mandate, not taken a legitimate or defendable position regardless of what may be said.

See what I'm getting at? The rule of law--as articulated brilliantly by Mueller for no other reason but this very one, imo--demands that the next step be impeachment proceedings. So if the House refuses, they would be in breach of one of their foundational mandates.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Don't waste their time on futility. Forcing a vote won't help anything.

No, but airing Trump's dirty laundry in yet another venue should drive him mega squirrelly... could be fun to see what happens.

As long as Trump's dirt laundry is aired - Trump wins. He gets incredible free media exposure and some on the left are trying to get him even more! He won't be impeached. But all this "fun" could get him another term in office.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The GOP needs to be the source of impeachment. Trump clearly is not up to the job, in addition to his abuse of power, and clearly not working in America's best interest. I'd say throwing The Libyan Government to the wolves effectively ended any last shreds of trust lots of people would have with the US.

But it is down to the soulless GOP. Who won't convict, so impeachment is a bad idea politically.

 

[funinspace]

The GOP needs to be the source of impeachment. Trump clearly is not up to the job, in addition to his abuse of power, and clearly not working in America's best interest. I'd say throwing The Libyan Government to the wolves effectively ended any last shreds of trust lots of people would have with the US.

The US has thrown lots of governments to the wolves, even ones that control the large majority of said country. To say "The Libyan Government" is pretty funny:

But it is down to the soulless GOP. Who won't convict, so impeachment is a bad idea politically.

That is pretty much where I am at...

 

[Elixir]

No. Use the information against him in the 2020 election. I highly doubt that there will be the votes to remove Trump from office.

Why can't they do both?

Right.
IMHO the House should absolutely"begin impeachment proceedings". What they should NOT do, is actually impeach the shitgibbon before the 2020 election. Just keep the pot simmering, and let it boil over around 10/2020.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It would be futile but they should do it, that's their job.

Yes, I agree with this.

The information that has come out has absolutely risen to the level of ivestigation. To fail to do so would be a violation of our principles. Some have said, “don’t because Pence is worse,” but if he is worse ideologically but still law-abiding, that would not be worse.

I'm not so sure it would be futile.

I know the dems are somewhat apprehensive of impeachment. When the reps impeached Clinton, it only made him stronger. I don't see that happening in this case.

With Clinton, they impeached him over a land deal that he had lost money on ten years prior. Then they tried to drag Hillary in it and could find no wrongdoing on her part also. They finally had to settle on lying about a personal extra-marital affair, something almost half the nations adults have participated in at one or more times in their lives. All this while the guy pushing this, Newt Gingrich, is found out to be getting blow jobs from his mistress in the senate garage. It made the Clintons quite sympathetic figures.

I don't think that will happen with Trump. This would put his extremely shady past front and center for all to see and Fox News would be hard pressed to cover it up as they've been doing so in the past. All his mob ties, his dirty real estate deals, bribery, corruption. All the things that have been his stock in trade his entire life will be exposed on National TV. He will certainly not become a sympathetic figure. And they will still have the presidency of Pence, lame duck though he will surely be.

Republicans will have to decide what is more important to them. The Trump presidency or retaining some sort of political power after 2020. If they choose Trump, they are choosing the trash bin of history for themselves.

I agree. The spectacle of putting the shitgibbon on the stand, under oath, and assuming the dems could get some real hardball questions and really grill him, would probably be enough to undo his popularity even among a lot of his 'base' (not all of them, but there's naught to be done about them, really). Every time he answers "I don't remember", follow up with one of the many clips of him saying he has the 'best memory'. Every time he says anything, play a clip of him saying the opposite (really, it wouldn't be that hard, they could hire the Daily Show guys to do it for them on the fly) and ask if he was lying then, or lying now. He would lose it in under an hour, guaranteed.

I think it would trivial to actually impeach based on what is in Mueller report alone, but that's not all there is.

When the senate votes, even if they do not convict, make them own it. Find every single quote by a republican about what (Bill) Clinton did and how they voted then. Find every quote by the GOP that says how bad they think trump is, and then ask why they didn't convict. Just keep hammering on that through the election and make them fucking own it.

We know it won't affect a significant chunk of the base, but fuck those deplorables, it's the rest of the country that matters.

 

[Gun Nut]

Speaking of Republican hypocrisy...

Twitter thread with a clip each of Mitch McConnell, Lindsay Graham, and Chuck Grassley talking about how a president lying or obstructing justice while in office is a big deal

I had been telling the libs/dems for a year now that the winning strategy is to take those "old" videos of reps saying those types of relevant things they had been saying about the "other side", and play them 24/7 as if they are all new... present them in a way that makes it look current. Don't lie, just omit that it was from 2008 or whatever. Trump said this, McConnell said that...
The byline is "McConnell votes for Impeachment" or whatever... and just put the onus on Mitch to come out and try to say, "no, no, no, I was saying that about the other side... not this exact thing on this side!!"

 

[Gun Nut]

I'm not so sure it would be futile.

I know the dems are somewhat apprehensive of impeachment. When the reps impeached Clinton, it only made him stronger. I don't see that happening in this case.

With Clinton, they impeached him over a land deal that he had lost money on ten years prior. Then they tried to drag Hillary in it and could find no wrongdoing on her part also. They finally had to settle on lying about a personal extra-marital affair, something almost half the nations adults have participated in at one or more times in their lives. All this while the guy pushing this, Newt Gingrich, is found out to be getting blow jobs from his mistress in the senate garage. It made the Clintons quite sympathetic figures.

I don't think that will happen with Trump. This would put his extremely shady past front and center for all to see and Fox News would be hard pressed to cover it up as they've been doing so in the past. All his mob ties, his dirty real estate deals, bribery, corruption. All the things that have been his stock in trade his entire life will be exposed on National TV. He will certainly not become a sympathetic figure. And they will still have the presidency of Pence, lame duck though he will surely be.

Republicans will have to decide what is more important to them. The Trump presidency or retaining some sort of political power after 2020. If they choose Trump, they are choosing the trash bin of history for themselves.

I agree. The spectacle of putting the shitgibbon on the stand, under oath, and assuming the dems could get some real hardball questions and really grill him, would probably be enough to undo his popularity even among a lot of his 'base' (not all of them, but there's naught to be done about them, really). Every time he answers "I don't remember", follow up with one of the many clips of him saying he has the 'best memory'. Every time he says anything, play a clip of him saying the opposite (really, it wouldn't be that hard, they could hire the Daily Show guys to do it for them on the fly) and ask if he was lying then, or lying now. He would lose it in under an hour, guaranteed.

I think it would trivial to actually impeach based on what is in Mueller report alone, but that's not all there is.

When the senate votes, even if they do not convict, make them own it. Find every single quote by a republican about what (Bill) Clinton did and how they voted then. Find every quote by the GOP that says how bad they think trump is, and then ask why they didn't convict. Just keep hammering on that through the election and make them fucking own it.

We know it won't affect a significant chunk of the base, but fuck those deplorables, it's the rest of the country that matters.

This is my take as well.

 

[Elixir]

I'm not so sure it would be futile.

I know the dems are somewhat apprehensive of impeachment. When the reps impeached Clinton, it only made him stronger. I don't see that happening in this case.

With Clinton, they impeached him over a land deal that he had lost money on ten years prior. Then they tried to drag Hillary in it and could find no wrongdoing on her part also. They finally had to settle on lying about a personal extra-marital affair, something almost half the nations adults have participated in at one or more times in their lives. All this while the guy pushing this, Newt Gingrich, is found out to be getting blow jobs from his mistress in the senate garage. It made the Clintons quite sympathetic figures.

I don't think that will happen with Trump. This would put his extremely shady past front and center for all to see and Fox News would be hard pressed to cover it up as they've been doing so in the past. All his mob ties, his dirty real estate deals, bribery, corruption. All the things that have been his stock in trade his entire life will be exposed on National TV. He will certainly not become a sympathetic figure. And they will still have the presidency of Pence, lame duck though he will surely be.

Republicans will have to decide what is more important to them. The Trump presidency or retaining some sort of political power after 2020. If they choose Trump, they are choosing the trash bin of history for themselves.

I agree. The spectacle of putting the shitgibbon on the stand, under oath, and assuming the dems could get some real hardball questions and really grill him, would probably be enough to undo his popularity even among a lot of his 'base' (not all of them, but there's naught to be done about them, really). Every time he answers "I don't remember", follow up with one of the many clips of him saying he has the 'best memory'. Every time he says anything, play a clip of him saying the opposite (really, it wouldn't be that hard, they could hire the Daily Show guys to do it for them on the fly) and ask if he was lying then, or lying now. He would lose it in under an hour, guaranteed.

I think it would trivial to actually impeach based on what is in Mueller report alone, but that's not all there is.

When the senate votes, even if they do not convict, make them own it. Find every single quote by a republican about what (Bill) Clinton did and how they voted then. Find every quote by the GOP that says how bad they think trump is, and then ask why they didn't convict. Just keep hammering on that through the election and make them fucking own it.

We know it won't affect a significant chunk of the base, but fuck those deplorables, it's the rest of the country that matters.

This is my take as well.

I agree. And while more rocks are being turned over, why not begin impeachment hearings? Not only will that serve to keep Trump's scumbaggery in public view, it will avoid souring dems who will see the failure to do so as an abrogation of responsibility. It's hard to overestimate the impact of airing the shitgibbon's dirty laundry - his approval is down 6 points from post-Barr Report to post redacted Mueller Report. That's 14% of his supporters turning on him within a few weeks. And who are those 6% who approved of him after Barr told them how innocent Trump was, and then disapproved of him when the actual report (diluted as it was) came out? Bet your bottom dollar they were people who voted for him in 2016.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The GOP needs to be the source of impeachment. Trump clearly is not up to the job, in addition to his abuse of power, and clearly not working in America's best interest. I'd say throwing The Libyan Government to the wolves effectively ended any last shreds of trust lots of people would have with the US.

The US has thrown lots of governments to the wolves, even ones that control the large majority of said country. To say "The Libyan Government" is pretty funny:

As I wrote that I was thinking, just because the US even supports it, doesn't mean they are good people or in that much control of Libya. The key part though was that we did at least support them, and all of a sudden switching sides to a General who is heading towards the capital with his army, is certainly going to make it hard to win any hearts of minds of people or politicians in the region of approximately Anyfuckingwhere.

- - - Updated - - -

This is my take as well.

I agree. And while more rocks are being turned over, why not begin impeachment hearings? Not only will that serve to keep Trump's scumbaggery in public view, it will avoid souring dems who will see the failure to do so as an abrogation of responsibility. It's hard to overestimate the impact of airing the shitgibbon's dirty laundry - his approval is down 6 points from post-Barr Report to post redacted Mueller Report. That's 14% of his supporters turning on him within a few weeks. And who are those 6% who approved of him after Barr told them how innocent Trump was, and then disapproved of him when the actual report (diluted as it was) came out? Bet your bottom dollar they were people who voted for him in 2016.

The Democrats can investigate Trump without impeachment. Why give Trump that target to rally he troops against?

 

[Worldtraveller]

As I wrote that I was thinking, just because the US even supports it, doesn't mean they are good people or in that much control of Libya. The key part though was that we did at least support them, and all of a sudden switching sides to a General who is heading towards the capital with his army, is certainly going to make it hard to win any hearts of minds of people or politicians in the region of approximately Anyfuckingwhere.

- - - Updated - - -

This is my take as well.

I agree. And while more rocks are being turned over, why not begin impeachment hearings? Not only will that serve to keep Trump's scumbaggery in public view, it will avoid souring dems who will see the failure to do so as an abrogation of responsibility. It's hard to overestimate the impact of airing the shitgibbon's dirty laundry - his approval is down 6 points from post-Barr Report to post redacted Mueller Report. That's 14% of his supporters turning on him within a few weeks. And who are those 6% who approved of him after Barr told them how innocent Trump was, and then disapproved of him when the actual report (diluted as it was) came out? Bet your bottom dollar they were people who voted for him in 2016.

The Democrats can investigate Trump without impeachment. Why give Trump that target to rally he troops against?

As a political strategy, I'm ok with dragging it out so the timing of the actual impeachment happens between the actual election, and Jan 21. It should be used to maximum effect to hurt his chance of ever getting anywhere close to re-elected. Although I would like for the the senate to be put on the spot before the election as well, which would indicate that the timing should happen before the election. Those are several different issues, though.