Skeptic's Challenge

[bigfield]

In your OP you said you would 'successfully' refute claims of scientific inaccuracy in the Bible.

Now you are saying it such claims don't mean anything to you.

Are you willing to defend the scientific accuracy of Genesis 1, or not?

I asked the skeptic to present any problems they have with the Bible. Spurious scriptures, copyist errors and contradictions mostly having to do with the numerical exist. That I have already stated. Just because I challenge you to do this doesn't mean it can't be done.

I did also mention historical and scientific inaccuracies, and I stand by that, but that isn't to say that I think that the Bible and science always agree,

If the Bible disagrees with science then the Bible contains at least one scientific inaccuracy. Therefore your claim that you will 'successfully refute' any scientific inaccuracies provided is quite obviously not something you can achieve.

it is that when they do I trust the Bible over science.

Said just like a fundamentalist.

But you have to keep a couple things in mind. 1. Science and history are not always accurate.

Duh.

For example, you can argue the historical existence of Jesus because there are only a few well known historical references to him and these are spurious. What does that say about Jesus. Almost nothing, but what does it say about historical accuracy itself?

And, there are also a couple not so well known historical references of Jesus Christ that are accepted by scholars as authentic. Again. Because the scholars agree they are authentic are they? Maybe. Maybe not. These things are only for consideration.

Historical source analysis is totally irrelevant to the scientific inaccuracy of Genesis 1.

My strength in this thread is that most skeptics don't know a fraction of what they think they do that is anywhere near accurate.

Your humble opinion is noted.

Give my your criticism of Genesis 1 and I will refute it. One at a time, though, you are not the only one. I am only one.

I'll get to it in a couple of hours.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Matthew 27:5

Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. Acts 1:18

How did Judas die, and what did he do with the money?

 

[Rilx]

I don't know whether this is a challenge for skeptics but most Christians seem to believe that God is the creator of everything. According to Genesis it is not true:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

It is quite common in creation mythologies that in the beginning there was water, the sea, and the earth was created in the middle of the sea sea and heavenly bodies above it. As it is in the Bible too.

In my local mythology earth and heaven were born of a pochard's ("the bird of the air") egg which fell on the sea, breaking. A part of the yolk became earth, another part became sun and pieces of the shell became other heavenly bodies. If we don't mind literal explanations, both myths are practically equal. Genesis seems to assume the air too.

 

[Sajara]

Do you answer a fool?

PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


I know I Pity Da Fool. BAM!

 

[bigfield]

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is scientifically inaccurate. Cosmologists estimate the universe to be approximately 13.8 billion years old (Source) while Earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old (Source). Therefore the earth was not created in the beginning.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Produce any alleged contradictions, imperfections, historical or scientific inaccuracies you perceive in the Bible and I will successfully refute them.

Isn't that backwards?
I don't accept the Books as authoritative because I don't believe it's the word of a god I don't believe in.

Shouldn't the effort be to prove that gods exist at all, then that a specific god exists, that he/she/it/they have given us their testimony, then that it's been recorded accurately and presented to us as The Books?

Proving that you can either
1) jimmy up an explanation to make the Books appear internally consistent or
2) blame the reader for erroneous assumptions

or blaming the transcribers for introducing errors from a mythical, and curiously unavailable, perfect scripture is not going to prove that any gods exist. Nor even that there's perfect scripture, somewhere.

Especially if the best the 'skeptic' can hope for is for the thumper to say, 'yes, that's an error, but I do not confess a touch because it's an unimportant error.'

Big whoop.

 

[Bronzeage]

Does the Bible indicate the age of Planet Earth?

Good question. No. It doesn't. For a thorough explanation read my Skeptic's Study Bible | Genesis Chapter 1 including the Academic's Annotated Bible and Skeptic's FAQ. It isn't as lengthy a read as it sounds.

Many theologists have used the genealogy between Adam and Christ, given in various Scripture to determine the Earth is somewhere between 5 and 7 thousand years old. Is this accurate?

 

[NobleSavage]

Why bother with quibbles about minor details? The bible revolves around the existence of a deity that we have no reason to believe actually exists.

I'm trying to think . . . what scientific paper was that conclusion drawn in? What reason do you have not to believe he actually exists? What is he, in fact?

Where was that scientific paper that refutes the existence of a teapot in orbit around the sun?

 

[KeepTalking]

The skeptic's challenge is this. Produce any alleged contradictions, imperfections, historical or scientific inaccuracies you perceive in the Bible and I will successfully refute them. The only rule is that you can give only one at a time per person. When I answer your first then you can provide a second if you wish.

The gospels of Matthew and Luke both present genealogies for Jesus, both of which agree at first, but diverge completely at David. How can both genealogies be correct?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Why bother with quibbles about minor details? The bible revolves around the existence of a deity that we have no reason to believe actually exists.

I'm trying to think . . . what scientific paper was that conclusion drawn in?

Fascinating.
You think we need a scientific paper to NOT be persuaded that something exists?

How quaint.

What reason do you have not to believe he actually exists?

It's the lack of compelling evidence that he, or any other gods, exist that leaves us as atheists.

What is he, in fact?

That would be a question for those who claim gods exist.

 

[Sarpedon]

I think that was intentional, to demonstrate his insignificance. Later Pharaoh's were mentioned by name, like Shishak, So, Tirhakah, Nechoh, and Hophra. But many prior to those were not named.

I'm interested in the Pharaoh issue. Even if I accept your rather absurd claim that Exodus' Pharaoh is 'insignificant' while other Pharaohs aren't, surely in your 'studies' you must have a good idea of which Pharaoh it was. Also, please give the proper egyptian name and dynasty for all of these other Pharaohs you mention.

 

[NobleSavage]

Is seems that Christians have a different meaning for "in order to believe it". Belief for me is based on my life experiences and the things I've learned. I don't chose what I want to believe. For example, do I believe that this chair will not break when I sit on it? Yes, I do, because every chair I've ever taken a seat in has not broken. They odds are highly in my favor that I'm right.

Now when Christians say is, "if you believe in Jesus -- with all your might -- you don't have to be tortured in Hell for eternity and you get a a free pass to eternal happiness." Well, that is a great deal, unless you can't believe that story for 10,000 legitimate reasons.

That would depend upon the legitimacy of the 10,000 reasons. For starters, the Bible doesn't teach hell. Or literal torture for eternity. And some who are resurrected to eternal happiness were [ETA will have] never so much as [been] introduced to the historical Jesus Christ.

Let me guess, you are one of the few Christians that is a True Christian and you have finally -- and for once, and for all -- deciphered the bible in such a brilliant way that it makes perfect sense; never mind all the complex twists of logic and ingenious feats of mental gymnastics that preceded you: theologians have been toiling, for over 1000 years, to explain away (never quite satisfactorily), the simple fact that the emperor has no clothes.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, let's start with Chapter 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

So, it begins by stating that the Earth existed as a place with water before the sun existed. This is scientifically inaccurate. In the second sentence of the book.

Then, we have light on the Earth before the sun or any other stars are around. What was this light and how did we get night and day without a planet's rotation around a star?

Then, we have water above the sky instead of space. This is just plain wrong as well.

Then, we have plants around producing seeds, which they do by absorbing energy from the sun, but this happens before there's a sun around for them to get energy from.

Finally, we have the sun coming along. This happens after we already have a fully formed Earth complete with plant life, as opposed to this happening billions of years previously. Also, all the other stars come along at this point as opposed to having been around for billions of years. This is just plain wrong and totally scientifically inaccurate.

Then flying creatures come along at the same time as creatures in the water and are there before land animals, which the flying creatures evolved from. Once they're all fully formed, then the land animals which developed into them finally arrive. This is scientifically inaccurate as well.

That's just the first chapter. Everything in it is a mistake scientifically.

 

[NobleSavage]

Well, let's start with Chapter 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

So, it begins by stating that the Earth existed as a place with water before the sun existed. This is scientifically inaccurate. In the second sentence of the book.

Then, we have light on the Earth before the sun or any other stars are around. What was this light and how did we get night and day without a planet's rotation around a star?

Then, we have water above the sky instead of space. This is just plain wrong as well.

Then, we have plants around producing seeds, which they do by absorbing energy from the sun, but this happens before there's a sun around for them to get energy from.

Finally, we have the sun coming along. This happens after we already have a fully formed Earth complete with plant life, as opposed to this happening billions of years previously. Also, all the other stars come along at this point as opposed to having been around for billions of years. This is just plain wrong and totally scientifically inaccurate.

Then flying creatures come along at the same time as creatures in the water and are there before land animals, which the flying creatures evolved from. Once they're all fully formed, then the land animals which developed into them finally arrive. This is scientifically inaccurate as well.

That's just the first chapter. Everything in it is a mistake scientifically.

I do believe in talking snakes though!

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I do believe in talking snakes though!

Well, obviously the talking snake is fine. To question talking animals is to question Disney and I will throw the fuck down against anyone who tries that shit.

 

[bigfield]

I do believe in talking snakes though!

Well, obviously the talking snake is fine. To question talking animals is to question Disney and I will throw the fuck down against anyone who tries that shit.

Dude, just let it go.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I want to know why Pharaoh doesn't have a name.

I think that was intentional, to demonstrate his insignificance. Later Pharaoh's were mentioned by name, like Shishak, So, Tirhakah, Nechoh, and Hophra. But many prior to those were not named.

Sounds like a cop out. The later Pharaohs were significant? Seems odd that one of the most epic events in the Bible via Joesph to Moses would lead to no name for the main Protagonist.

Can you come up with a better reason?

 

[DLH]

What a intricate hyper-textual cluster fuck!

If St Paul tells Christians not to use swear words (Col. 3:8, Eph. 4:29), then why do you keep using the F-word?

You, I see from your profile, are an unbeliever, which means your objection to . . . objectionable language is either based upon an intellectual pedantic disposition or a perceived hypocrisy on my part. First of all, I should point out that I'm not a Christian. I was an atheist for the first 27 years of my life. My parents were atheists and I was raised, even as a small child, to believe that there are no obscene (dirty, filthy etc.) words. This is how I talk. I always have. In rare cases when I post on a forum which has an intellectual or religious prohibition on using certain words that are, incorrectly in my opinion, "obscene" out of respect and practical adherence to the general rule, I abstain from using those words.

 

[Keith&Co.]

My parents were atheists and I was raised, even as a small child, to believe that there are no obscene (dirty, filthy etc.) words.

So, you believe in the Books. And the Books says not to use unwholesome, vulgar, filthy language. But your atheist upbringing means you don't think there are any unwholesome, vulgar, filthy words that shouldn't be used.
This explains your use of the words, but doesn't explain how you follow the Books while using the words.

Do you think the verses Col. 3:8, Eph. 4:29 are artifacts of fallible transcribers/translators, and not of divine authority, so you can ignore them?
Or do you think the verses are of divine origin but do not apply to English words like shit, piss, cunt, fuck, cocksucker, motherfucker, tits, because they're not really unwholesome, vulgar, filthy words? If these verses are applicable, what words do you think they apply to?

 

[DLH]

Why did it take the Israelites 40 years to cross the desert to Canaan, when this journey would only have taken a few weeks on foot even back then?

They were sentenced to roam in the wilderness for their lack of faith. Hebrews 3:7–4:11; Numbers 13:25–14:38.

Also, and this is breaking the rules of your OP a little, but deal with it; why does the bible mention them passing near the land of the Phillistines... even though the Phillistines didn't yet exist and wouldn't exist for hundreds of years? That's a pretty big historical fuckup that can't be explained in the bible's favor except by desperately insisting the archeologists must've gotten it wrong.

Although some object to the references to Philistine there is no solid basis for doing so. The New Bible Dictionary edited by J.*Douglas (1985, p. 933): "Since the Philistines are not named in extra-biblical inscriptions until the 12th*century BC, and the archaeological remains associated with them do not appear before this time, many commentators reject references to them in the patriarchal period as anachronistic. . . . There is no reason why small groups of Philistines could not have been among the early Aegean traders, not prominent enough to be noticed by the larger states."

The evidence of a major expansion of Aegean trade going back to about the 20th century B.C.E. is no reason to assume that smaller groups not being prominent enough to be included in inscriptions of larger nations certainly isn't proof that the smaller group didn't exist.