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Slingshot versus handgun

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Philos

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Folks,

Having recently taken up the slingshot I am interested in the ballistics of said apparatus. Below is a vid of a German slingshot enthusiast going head to head with a variety of handguns. The result is impressive and not a little surprising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLxnNP-ycVQ

My own experience bears this out. I invited a friend to a solitary spot and demonstrated my wrist rocket (using 9mm lead balls) over a wide area of open water. She was amazed, having expected a weak plop into a pond. Instead she saw a ranged shot of 60 yds, with very little declination and a powerful 'thwack' of the ball into the water. It would be a definite kill shot on small game.

My next plan is to increase the power of the rubbers, the calibre of the lead balls, and use a trigger release aid on the pouch. Of course I will never be a Joerge Sprave, but this is a fun endeavour.

What's not to like?

Alex.
 
Used one all the time as a kid. Made a lot too. Those wrist rockets are awesome. They're called "Flips" where I lived down south.

You can drop half a dozen BBs in that leather pouch and with just the right release they'll sail downrange in a perfect tight pattern. Left many a cat with a sore ass in my wake and killed too many birds to remember. Not proud of that.

If you live along a RR Track where they ship iron ore you can collect tons of serious ammunition by picking up those iron ore balls. Shot a ton as a kid.
 
That's not a slingshot, it's a catapult (except in America, where they don't talk proper). A slingshot has no elastic components, and relies for it's power on extending the effective length of the thrower's arm.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDjL5uOs-8A[/YOUTUBE]

Both can be very powerful; The problem with ancient weapons is not that they lack power compared with modern firearms; but that they require far more skill and training to be effective.

Guns are 'better' because any moron can learn to be effective with one with very little training - both physical training to build muscle strength, and training for accuracy, are far less important with guns than with bows, catapults or slings.
 
While cool, their slingshot vs handgun ballistic pendulum test isn't great in terms of determining actual performance. I would not want to get hit with either, but a bullet is generally much worse than that slingshot ball.

bilby said:
That's not a slingshot, it's a catapult (except in America, where they don't talk proper). A slingshot has no elastic components, and relies for it's power on extending the effective length of the thrower's arm.

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDjL5uOs-8A[/YOUTUBE]

Both can be very powerful; The problem with ancient weapons is not that they lack power compared with modern firearms; but that they require far more skill and training to be effective.

Guns are 'better' because any moron can learn to be effective with one with very little training - both physical training to build muscle strength, and training for accuracy, are far less important with guns than with bows, catapults or slings.
Click to expand...

 Sling vs  Slingshot. I don't think I've ever heard the phrase 'hand catapult' before, but it certainly is descriptive. :thumbsup:
 
Darnit Philos. You just made me waste an hour watching Youtube videos of a crazy bald German playing with his toys!

Philos said:
What's not to like?
Alex.
Click to expand...
What's not to like is the lead. It's environmentally toxic, plus it kills wildlife. In many places lead shot is illegal.
Why not switch to steel balls? They'd be cheaper and what you'd loose in energy/speed you'd make up for in velocity.

Sling vs slingshot? I've always understood "slingshot" to refer to an elastic powered weapon, and "sling" to refer to the traditional human powered devices.
 
seyorni said:
Darnit Philos. You just made me waste an hour watching Youtube videos of a crazy bald German playing with his toys!

Philos said:
What's not to like?
Alex.
Click to expand...
What's not to like is the lead. It's environmentally toxic, plus it kills wildlife. In many places lead shot is illegal.
Why not switch to steel balls? They'd be cheaper and what you'd loose in energy/speed you'd make up for in velocity.

Sling vs slingshot? I've always understood "slingshot" to refer to an elastic powered weapon, and "sling" to refer to the traditional human powered devices.
Click to expand...

seyorni,

The lead v steel thing was important for me. First off, steel has a nasty tendency to ricochet, and I don't want a steel ball coming back on a close shot!:eek: Learned this with my air rifles and new fangled lead free ammo. Second is that the lead is not so slippy so it sits nicely in the leather pouch and I get a good grip. Lastly, for some reason, I have a weird desire to pop a shiny ballbearing into my mouth.

Agreed about the pollution though, and lead is more expensive.

Alex.
 
seyorni said:
Darnit Philos. You just made me waste an hour watching Youtube videos of a crazy bald German playing with his toys!

Philos said:
What's not to like?
Alex.
Click to expand...
What's not to like is the lead. It's environmentally toxic, plus it kills wildlife. In many places lead shot is illegal.
Why not switch to steel balls? They'd be cheaper and what you'd loose in energy/speed you'd make up for in velocity.

Sling vs slingshot? I've always understood "slingshot" to refer to an elastic powered weapon, and "sling" to refer to the traditional human powered devices.
Click to expand...

Steel is a HORRIBLE choice for projectiles.

When I worked as a gunsmith, half our business was re-boring or replacing shotgun barrels ruined by farmers who used steel ball-bearings, because they assumed that they were better than lead shot.

Lead is soft; it doesn't scour grooves in your gun barrels.

Much more importantly, it flattens against hard surfaces. Steel doesn't flatten; it bounces back.

You seriously do NOT want any projectile you send downrange to come back with most of its energy undiminished, just because it happened to encounter a wall.

I know of a number of former customers who have ended up in hospital because they shot at a fox using steel ball-bearing rounds, and caught some of it on its way back up range.

Lead is used for bullets, shot, and even non-firearm projectiles for a reason.

Whatever your choice of projectile, it needs to be soft enough not to bounce.

To be effective, it also needs to dump it's energy in the target; if the shot goes through, and comes out the other side at reasonable speed (which is velocity in an unspecified direction) then the energy is wasted.
 
bilby said:
That's not a slingshot, it's a catapult (except in America, where they don't talk proper). A slingshot has no elastic components, and relies for it's power on extending the effective length of the thrower's arm.

Both can be very powerful; The problem with ancient weapons is not that they lack power compared with modern firearms; but that they require far more skill and training to be effective.

Guns are 'better' because any moron can learn to be effective with one with very little training - both physical training to build muscle strength, and training for accuracy, are far less important with guns than with bows, catapults or slings.
Click to expand...

bilby,

You may have guessed that I tend to cater for our American cousins, hence 'slingshot', 'guys' and 'folks' in my posts. Apart from that I agree with your nomenclature.

The training thing also applies to bow v crossbow. I have also become an arbalist recently, with a Man Kung 130lb crossbow which is a little scary to shoot. You definitely cannot grip it like a rifle or fingers and thumb will be removed by the flying string! Also cocking it is backbreaking. However, medieval footsoldiers were quickly trained on the xbow, whereas a long bow took much practise and skill.

Accuracy with the catapult is improving, thanks to many redneck youtube instructors giving of their time. :smile:

Alex.

PS - Agreed on your later post. There are now some non lead airgun pellets using split materials, plastic or alloy skirts and hard points. I have tried all kinds of these and the accuracy just isn't there. The penetration is obviously better but what good is that if you miss at any range?

I'm not a hunter myself, but loads of Brits use air rifles for small game, relying on the accuracy of the headshot even out to 50 yds. This is good going for a sub 12ft lbs unlicensed airgun.

Catapults can be used for small game as the heavier impact is a kill on the body as well as the head. Much practise required for the use of this traditional 'poacher's' tool.

Alex.
 
beero1000 said:
While cool, their slingshot vs handgun ballistic pendulum test isn't great in terms of determining actual performance. I would not want to get hit with either, but a bullet is generally much worse than that slingshot ball.
Click to expand...

beer,

A gunshot victim will have a better chance if there is a clean exit wound. In that case small calibre penetration is an advantage in such a grim situation. A large catapult ball will be lower velocity and more like a blunt, tearing, instrument.

What I would advise is not youtubing the search term 'terrible crossbow accidents'. I have an 18" deep poly rubber backstop on my xbow range and the bolts go all the way through it! In fact it has been very difficult to find an archery range that will allow me in to compete with the crossbow. I'm having to travel 40 miles for the experience. Lethal.

Alex.
 
Philos said:
The training thing also applies to bow v crossbow. I have also become an arbalist recently, with a Man Kung 130lb crossbow which is a little scary to shoot. You definitely cannot grip it like a rifle or fingers and thumb will be removed by the flying string! Also cocking it is backbreaking. However, medieval footsoldiers were quickly trained on the xbow, whereas a long bow took much practise and skill.
Click to expand...
Did you see this video of a powerful crossbow with a really simple, cranking mechanism? A child could cock it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo55U3SiFKQ

PS - Agreed on your later post. There are now some non lead airgun pellets using split materials, plastic or alloy skirts and hard points. I have tried all kinds of these and the accuracy just isn't there. The penetration is obviously better but what good is that if you miss at any range?
Alex.
Click to expand...
Here in the states standard BBs have always been copper or zinc plated steel. I've never heard of lead ball ammo.
 
Spherical lead ball ammunition was the norm until the 'Minié ball' was developed in the early 19th century.

The muzzle loading of rifles with spherical ball rounds was slow and difficult, as the round has to be wider than the calibre defined by the lands if it is to be spun up correctly; but such balls required a hammer to drive them home, and/or a leather 'patch' to make a tight fit.

The Minié ball resolves that problem by being a cylinder of slightly less than the diameter of the barrel, with a concave base that is pushed outwards by the expanding propellant to grip the rifling.

Once breach loading became the norm, the conical shape was retained for its aerodynamic properties.

Shotguns, with their smooth bores, remained suited to spherical ball ammunition, until the adoption of the 'choke' barrel, which dramatically improves shot grouping, but prevents the use of full calibre solid rounds as the barrel is not a uniform diameter - the muzzle is narrower than the breech, so trying to fire a solid shot would be a very bad thing indeed.

Spherical ammunition of full calibre is almost unheard of today. It's only redeeming feature was that it was cheap to make, but economies of scale mean that even that is no longer the case.
 
Huh. Years and years ago, when my dad was a kid, too young for my grandfather to turn loose with a real firearm, he used to hunt rabbits (successfully) with a slingshot. He used small rocks or glass marbles, when he could get them. I can remember going out into a meadow near our house with my dad and his home made sling shot and watching him target practice with marbles.
 
bilby said:
Shotguns, with their smooth bores, remained suited to spherical ball ammunition, until the adoption of the 'choke' barrel, which dramatically improves shot grouping, but prevents the use of full calibre solid rounds as the barrel is not a uniform diameter - the muzzle is narrower than the breech, so trying to fire a solid shot would be a very bad thing indeed.
Click to expand...

bilby,

As kids we did have access to a 410 Westley Richards takedown shotgun. It was weedy with regular cartridges but we did a dangerous thing.

We would use a razor blade to slit around the cartridge at the base. The shot would then come out as a 'wad' compressed by the cartridge material. This made a very different kind of weapon, but we knew nothing of choked barrels in those days.

Alex.
 
DBT said:
Some BB guns can shoot BB's or lead pellets, while not 'lead balls' pellets may have semi spherical tips.
Click to expand...

Folks,

Yes, the Spanish company GAMO supply lead BBs. This allows for a rifled barrel but the accuracy is still dreadful in the air pistols that I have. The only positive thing is the ability to have a repeating action and large magazine.

Alex.

PS - I'm not advertising the company, just stating the fact.
 
bilby said:
Spherical lead ball ammunition was the norm until the 'Minié ball' was developed in the early 19th century.

The muzzle loading of rifles with spherical ball rounds was slow and difficult, as the round has to be wider than the calibre defined by the lands if it is to be spun up correctly; but such balls required a hammer to drive them home, and/or a leather 'patch' to make a tight fit.

The Minié ball resolves that problem by being a cylinder of slightly less than the diameter of the barrel, with a concave base that is pushed outwards by the expanding propellant to grip the rifling.

Once breach loading became the norm, the conical shape was retained for its aerodynamic properties.

Shotguns, with their smooth bores, remained suited to spherical ball ammunition, until the adoption of the 'choke' barrel, which dramatically improves shot grouping, but prevents the use of full calibre solid rounds as the barrel is not a uniform diameter - the muzzle is narrower than the breech, so trying to fire a solid shot would be a very bad thing indeed.

Spherical ammunition of full calibre is almost unheard of today. It's only redeeming feature was that it was cheap to make, but economies of scale mean that even that is no longer the case.
Click to expand...

Many modern shotguns have removable chokes. You can have a choke suited for shot for duck hunting season, skeet shooting, or even in some cases to change out to accommodate slugs in deer hunting season.

Slugs are also good for zombies
 
I don't think a slug from a flip could take down a zombie, not even point blank. Likely it would stagger him if well placed, maybe knock him down but I don't think it would cause enough head damage to score a kill.
 
joedad said:
I don't think a slug from a flip could take down a zombie, not even point blank. Likely it would stagger him if well placed, maybe knock him down but I don't think it would cause enough head damage to score a kill.
Click to expand...

joedad,

I used to think of slingshots as small calibre, but trying out 25mm lead balls has been a revelation. With decent power bands there is a lot of force there, even at the lower velocity. Maybe an accurate hit on the brain stem would do it; but how will we ever know?

Alex.
 
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