Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[Jimmy Higgins]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

You're redefining the word.

Yes, there is a lingering cultural effect.

Lingering cultural effect. Lingering? As in the consequences resulted in an avalanche? They are covered in 50 ft of snow at the bottom and you are saying there might be "lingering" impacts.

Regardless, also a "lingering" financial effect. Perhaps the largest issue remains access to housing. Blacks weren't in the same position to own real estate as the suburbs boomed. It was restricted to them. This created a generational problem regarding access to homes that'd gain notable value, better schools, less crime.

We are talking several generations of this. It is a massive avalanche that buried them and greatly restricted progress. You want to blame culture, but the truth is, this was all done INTENTIONALLY against them, and we are seeing the results of this intentional action. It isn't culture, it was sabotage.

That doesn't make the cultural effect racism and it doesn't make anti-discrimination efforts do anything about it.

The anti-discrimination efforts again aren't pulling them up and out... it is just pulling them up a couple feet.

Loren: Sorry bout all that bullshit between 1700 and 1970, boy. Here are some boot straps.

 

[Elixir]

We are talking several generations of this.

Yeah. Like, about TWENTY of them.
Your avalanche analogy is quite apt.

 

[Gospel]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Where do you get the impression Asians brought over for railroad work etc started out the same as ex-slaves blacks? To my knowledge, an Asian slave for example one that was taken by the Portuguese and ended up in California to build railroads for the gold rush was seen as cheap labor & not property in America. Asians were not on America's law books as slaves. Put it this way, an Asian slave laborer that escaped can actually start a new life in America where Asians were treated better. Like, haul ass to another state and set up shop and legally be able to open a business. Black slaves weren't seen as people, period, full stop.

 

[Elixir]

Black slaves weren't seen as people, period, full stop

Zackly. Even when there was a fixed fifty cent fine for killing a Chinaman, there WAS a penalty. The only “penalty” for killing a slave was the property loss (slaves cost money!) itself.
Loren apparently believes that treating black people as property or the offspring of the offspring of offspring of property, isn’t racism. I’m sure he has a good supply of more polite terms for it. But to me it remains plain, simple, undeniable racism. That it is largely unconscious on the part of the racists doesn’t change it at all.

Black Americans ARE the offspring of property so Loren’s sense that their treatment is just an outcome of their nature is understandable, even as perverse as I think it is.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Asians had to deal with racism, a good deal of it. There is no doubt about it.

The same as ex-slave blacks? Is there an Asian Plessy v Ferguson?

United States v. Ju Toy

Definitely legally discriminatory, but not the width in scope of a Plessy v Ferguson which legalized racial segregation, as long as it was separate but equal *wink wink*.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We are talking several generations of this.

Yeah. Like, about TWENTY of them.
Your avalanche analogy is quite apt.

I'm more talking about post Civil War to 1970 (and even more to the WWI to 1960s), where blacks are free*, where there is access in theory to the American Dream, but it was restricted to even the likes of Jesse Owens.

 

[Elixir]

We are talking several generations of this.

Yeah. Like, about TWENTY of them.
Your avalanche analogy is quite apt.

I'm more talking about post Civil War to 1970 (and even more to the WWI to 1960s), where blacks are free*, where there is access in theory to the American Dream, but it was restricted to even the likes of Jesse Owens.

That raises a question in my mind. Lee surrendered in April 1865.
I don't think Loren would say that by May 1865, the economic plight of black Americans wasn't in any way related to racism.
Sixteen months or so later, slavery actually ended when Texas finally caved in. I don't think Loren would even make the argument he's making now at that point.
So, for Loren ...
Just exactly when did racism stop having anything to do with the economic disparities from which black Americans still suffer?

 

[Gospel]

It's curious that today anyone can say there's White Privilege, or systemic racism favoring White people, when no one wants to be White.

Welcome to 2022 where Culture =/= Genetics. Btw, we're working on removing skin color as a factor when deciding how to treat/identify people. I hope you can join us. While I do understand you don't believe white privilege exists I must bring to light that posting a bunch of (apparently) white people that have the privilege of identifying as another race doesn't help your cause.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We are talking several generations of this.

Yeah. Like, about TWENTY of them.
Your avalanche analogy is quite apt.

I'm more talking about post Civil War to 1970 (and even more to the WWI to 1960s), where blacks are free*, where there is access in theory to the American Dream, but it was restricted to even the likes of Jesse Owens.

That raises a question in my mind. Lee surrendered in April 1865.
I don't think Loren would say that by May 1865, the economic plight of black Americans wasn't in any way related to racism.
Sixteen months or so later, slavery actually ended when Texas finally caved in. I don't think Loren would even make the argument he's making now at that point.
So, for Loren ...
Just exactly when did racism stop having anything to do with the economic disparities from which black Americans still suffer?

From my research way the heck back when, it was when Reconstruction ended the small benefits gained by blacks dissipated.

I just tire of hearing how wrong it is to provide minimalistic opportunities to African Americans, when that doesn't even scratch the surface of the harm done to them intentional over the period of 100 or so years. And then on top of that, to blame African American "culture" for the issues today? WTF?! The African American condition is a self-fulfilling prophecy of decades of intentional neglect and interference.

 

[Gospel]

And then on top of that, to blame African American "culture"

The culture that they created and African Americans are making do with.

Edit: By they I mean America.

 

[jab]

Unsurprisingly, you have no clue what I think about conservatives. Most of my family and in-laws are conservative. Some conservatives are thoughtful, considerate and generous people. Others are not. Some are villains, some are misguided, some are right about some matters and wrong about others (like most people of all ideological stripes).

I do have a clue what you tend to think of right-wingers, and a lot more than a clue, because I have your posts, in which you describe what you think about them. Okay, so you know that some conservatives are thoughtful, considerate and generous people. Great! But on the basis of your regular posting here, you still got the vast majority of them wrong (and yes, some are villains; some left-wingers are as well).

I am sorry you cannot parse simple English. Plainly stated, it means for you to adopt your own suggestion and wait a couple of years before posting again in this thread.

I can understand English reasonably well; as you should know, misunderstandings on this boards are ubiquitous, even among native English speakers, and your suggestion was not clear.

That said, my suggestion was not to stop posting now, but to come back in a couple of years regardless of when the ongoing discussion in this thread stops. But if I remember and I'm still posting on this website, I will come back and to see what happened with the predictions that teachers would stop teaching.

Of course it is idiotic. No one remotely familiar with the USA or its history knows it would be idiotic to teach US history without slavery.

Of course that it would be idiotic to do so. But what you called 'idiotic' was not "to teach US history without slavery". Rather, what you called an "idiotic strawman" is the point I was making. Which was not at all a strawman, or an idiotic reply. Remember that our exchange on the matter began when you replied to my reply to Jimmy Higgins. Look at his reply when I asked for an example of what teachers would stop teaching:

Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

LOL. Mass homicide spike because of murder hornets. Makes as much sense as pinning it on George Floyd's murder. I’m trying to figure out if Trausti is saying that police departments refused to adequately do their jobs if they were going to be scrutinized for the occasional murder of unarmed...

iidb.org

Also, for further context, he was replying to a question I asked Loren Pechtel; later he replied that they would stop teaching whatever a nebulous "the right" doesn't want taught.

The issue is how to approach the issue of slavery. I will use two movies about the pre-Civil War South to provide a simple example. The first is Song_of_the_South which presents slavery as a relatively benign institution, and 12_Years_a_Slave_(film) which does not. Both are hypothetical examples of a presentation of slice of "history" of the slavery in the USA.

I did not watch "Song_of_the_South". I did watch "12 Years a Slave". But iirc, while based on a true story, that was fiction. I would expect that teachers would teach history, rather than movies. Still, let me ask you: are you claiming that teachers today teach history by showing children "12 Years a Slave" or similar movies, and that due to SB148, they'll stop doing so?

History and movies are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Bomb#20]

Asians had to deal with racism, a good deal of it. There is no doubt about it.

The same as ex-slave blacks? Is there an Asian Plessy v Ferguson?

United States v. Ju Toy

Definitely legally discriminatory, but not the width in scope of a Plessy v Ferguson which legalized racial segregation, as long as it was separate but equal *wink wink*.

Sorry, I was going for depth, not width. Plessy v Ferguson was a ruthless attack on African Americans, but it didn't go so far as to allow African Americans to be legally exiled from their own country without even the due process of going before a judge in a court of law, just on the say-so of a local administrative official.

If you want width of scope, the Asian Plessy v Ferguson was Plessy v Ferguson. The separate but equal *wink wink* schools, bathrooms and drinking fountains weren't white and black; they were white and "colored". (The case where the SCOTUS ruled that Chinese Americans were legally "colored" for purposes of segregation was Lum v. Rice, if you want to call that the Asian Plessy v Ferguson.)

 

[jab]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

 

[Gospel]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

It's like this part of African American History (which is really America's shit sandwich that African Americans are still nibbling on today) doesn't exist to people. Maybe we do need Critical Race Theory in the schools because it seems white folks be ignorant yo.

Edit: Some

 

[jab]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

You're redefining the word.

Yes, there is a lingering cultural effect. That doesn't make the cultural effect racism and it doesn't make anti-discrimination efforts do anything about it.

The problem is that the lingering effect on the black community's culture is reinforced by the lingering effect of centuries of anti-black racism used to justify the enslavement of Africans and only Africans as chattels in America, the lingering effect of that racist in many whites and in areas of American white culture. Gotta love them Confederate flags and statues of white supremacists. Manifestations of the lingering effects of racism in American white culture and white individuals in the 21st century reinforce and prolong the lingering of the effects in the black community.

 

[Elixir]

Nice looking lady, eh?



It’d be a shame if any good old boy mistook her for sumpin respeckible.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because the cultural effect resonates with a strongly correlated morphology, it remains racist to starve the culture of the tools it needs to develop into something positive.

Never mind that the people of that culture, regardless of their skin color or heritage, have been failed on account of 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.

Who is trying to starve them?

There's a problem. I'd like to see some solutions for it, but it's not a discrimination problem, anti-discrimination efforts will not work. Any more than taking bigger and bigger doses of invermectin will cure your Covid.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Black slaves weren't seen as people, period, full stop

Zackly. Even when there was a fixed fifty cent fine for killing a Chinaman, there WAS a penalty. The only “penalty” for killing a slave was the property loss (slaves cost money!) itself.
Loren apparently believes that treating black people as property or the offspring of the offspring of offspring of property, isn’t racism. I’m sure he has a good supply of more polite terms for it. But to me it remains plain, simple, undeniable racism. That it is largely unconscious on the part of the racists doesn’t change it at all.

Black Americans ARE the offspring of property so Loren’s sense that their treatment is just an outcome of their nature is understandable, even as perverse as I think it is.

You're still not getting it.

What happened back then was most certainly very wrong. What I'm saying is that on economic terms it's impossible to reduce the children to below zero. Thus you have a large number of people all starting at the same point: zero. This group includes both the descendants of slaves and the descendants of the Chinese immigrants. If the cause was economic they should be at the same position now. Both were discriminated against, the discrimination was lifted at the same time. Thus if the cause is discrimination they should be at the same position now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

not quite--they were not totally estranged from their roots and communities and original cultures--nor had they seen their parents have their dignity stripped away from them by racist slavery, nor had they been socialized from birth up to think of themselves as abject objects, inferior to other-skinned humans.

You're listing cultural factors. Those can't be addressed by anti-discrimination efforts.

I'm not saying the problem isn't real, I'm saying the proposed solution is utterly useless and just perpetuates the problem.

 

[Jarhyn]

Because the cultural effect resonates with a strongly correlated morphology, it remains racist to starve the culture of the tools it needs to develop into something positive.

Never mind that the people of that culture, regardless of their skin color or heritage, have been failed on account of 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.

Who is trying to starve them?

There's a problem. I'd like to see some solutions for it, but it's not a discrimination problem, anti-discrimination efforts will not work. Any more than taking bigger and bigger doses of invermectin will cure your Covid.

I don't know why, or who would make evil decisions like the ones that cause the starvation, but not knowing who they are or why they are doing it doesn't change the fact of what is being done with respect to the neighborhoods in Minneapolis where lots of black people live, which consistently damage property values and fuck up area accessibility.

And I don't think it's a "discrimination" problem entirely or even mostly. It started off as a discrimination problem, but now it's a "fiscal and educational and political momentum problem" which, fortunately, can be addressed by some of the same tools as the past discrimination problems