So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."

[Loren Pechtel]

I automatically disbelieve bullshit once I realize it's bullshit. If that's all you have (and it usually is) then you're right to think I'm not likely to be convinced by something you find compelling.

That doesn't mean you don't have to support your claims.

You still haven't looked at that book.

I read the whole thing, researched the author, and found a more recent article that substantiated one of his claims.

What did you do? Did you look for another source to back Hollingsworth?

So now do you understand the "coexistence" the Arabs envision?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course any plan not conceived by Arab Palestinians is as you say half arsed! Exactly why there can never be peace in Palestine or anywhere else in the Middle East governed by Hamas and the PA unless Israel is willing to commit Hari Kari..
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/06/mahmoud-abbas-angrily-rejects-50-billion-dollar-aid-package

Doesn't mean Kushner's plan isn't also garbage.

 

[Arctish]

I automatically disbelieve bullshit once I realize it's bullshit. If that's all you have (and it usually is) then you're right to think I'm not likely to be convinced by something you find compelling.

That doesn't mean you don't have to support your claims.

You still haven't looked at that book.

I read the whole thing, researched the author, and found a more recent article that substantiated one of his claims.

What did you do? Did you look for another source to back Hollingsworth?

So now do you understand the "coexistence" the Arabs envision?

Better than you, apparently.

I called you out on your apparent failure to read the book in the other thread. Don't even try to bullshit about its contents. Either you can post knowledgably about the author's arguments, proposals, and conclusions, or you can't. And right now it's pretty obvious you can't.

In fact, I don't think you remember it well enough to even find it again without the ginormous hint I gave you.

 

[angelo]

Of course any plan not conceived by Arab Palestinians is as you say half arsed! Exactly why there can never be peace in Palestine or anywhere else in the Middle East governed by Hamas and the PA unless Israel is willing to commit Hari Kari..
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/06/mahmoud-abbas-angrily-rejects-50-billion-dollar-aid-package

Did you read that article? All of it? And did you read the Kushner plan?

You would think that A people who crave peace would clutch at any straw in order to achieve it, don't you think?

https://worldisraelnews.com/palesti...tanyahu+Cancel+Elections?+Palestinians+'Not+H

 

[Arctish]

Of course any plan not conceived by Arab Palestinians is as you say half arsed! Exactly why there can never be peace in Palestine or anywhere else in the Middle East governed by Hamas and the PA unless Israel is willing to commit Hari Kari..
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/06/mahmoud-abbas-angrily-rejects-50-billion-dollar-aid-package

Did you read that article? All of it? And did you read the Kushner plan?

You would think that A people who crave peace would clutch at any straw in order to achieve it, don't you think?

https://worldisraelnews.com/palesti...tanyahu+Cancel+Elections?+Palestinians+'Not+H

I would think that anyone with an interest in this topic would read the links provided in this thread.

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So now do you understand the "coexistence" the Arabs envision?

Better than you, apparently.

I called you out on your apparent failure to read the book in the other thread. Don't even try to bullshit about its contents. Either you can post knowledgably about the author's arguments, proposals, and conclusions, or you can't. And right now it's pretty obvious you can't.

In fact, I don't think you remember it well enough to even find it again without the ginormous hint I gave you.

You still are ignoring how they were treated by the Arabs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

They haven't seized the stuff in the past, why would they seize it in the future?

What you're referring to is deliberate setups where the Palestinians build where they don't have permission, often where they don't even own the land. It's all Pallywood, meant to fool those who fall for soundbites and don't look carefully.

 

[ZiprHead]

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

They haven't seized the stuff in the past, why would they seize it in the future?

Huh???

 

[Arctish]

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

They haven't seized the stuff in the past, why would they seize it in the future?

Huh???

Loren just played the It Never Happened card.

From this point on, he will use the card to trump any evidence you offer, like this:

Israeli authorities decided to seize hundreds of dunams of Palestinian land in the Jordan Valley

*plays card* It Never Happened.

Israeli bulldozers have razed a Palestinian property on the outskirts of the occupied Old City of East Jerusalem al-Quds, and seized Palestinian-owned vehicles

*plays card* It Never Happened.

The Bedouin village of Khan al-Ahmar in occupied Palestine will be demolished while the illegal Israeli settlements on either side will be protected

*plays card* It Never Happened.

If you trump his trump and force Loren to confront the fact that seizing Palestinian land and resources is actual Israeli policy, he'll revert to reciting dogma about Hamas and anti-Semitism. What he won't do is acknowledge how Israel gained control of so much of Palestine or how those West Bank settlements got so big. Heck, he won't even acknowledge how it got control of land inside the 1947 borders despite being fully aware of Plan Dalet and other pre-meditated land grabs.

Whatever that $50bn in donations in the Kushner plan buys, Israel will seize and utilize itself or auction for cash like those donated classrooms. And all the while Loren will claim It Never Happened and peddle alternate facts.

It's very Trumpy.

 

[Arctish]

So now do you understand the "coexistence" the Arabs envision?

Better than you, apparently.

I called you out on your apparent failure to read the book in the other thread. Don't even try to bullshit about its contents. Either you can post knowledgably about the author's arguments, proposals, and conclusions, or you can't. And right now it's pretty obvious you can't.

In fact, I don't think you remember it well enough to even find it again without the ginormous hint I gave you.

You still are ignoring how they were treated by the Arabs.

I'm not.

I'm more than willing to discuss it with you. We can start with the information presented in that book you found. Let me know when you've finished reading it.

 

[angelo]

You would think that A people who crave peace would clutch at any straw in order to achieve it, don't you think?

https://worldisraelnews.com/palesti...tanyahu+Cancel+Elections?+Palestinians+'Not+H

I would think that anyone with an interest in this topic would read the links provided in this thread.

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

You've got that all arse about. It's the israelis who need the giant wall to be protected from Arab terrorist attacks as they seem to be doing all the attacking including with incenderdery balloons. Sarcasm noted!

 

[Arctish]

You would think that A people who crave peace would clutch at any straw in order to achieve it, don't you think?

https://worldisraelnews.com/palesti...tanyahu+Cancel+Elections?+Palestinians+'Not+H

I would think that anyone with an interest in this topic would read the links provided in this thread.

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

You've got that all arse about. It's the israelis who need the giant wall to be protected from Arab terrorist attacks as they seem to be doing all the attacking including with incenderdery balloons. Sarcasm noted!

So a giant wall on the 1967 borders would be beneficial to both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Israelis can imprison anyone who enters their portion illegally, and the Palestinians can do the same. Win-win!!

Sounds like you and I just came up with a plan we both can agree on, and I'm pretty sure Abbas and the PA will like it too. So that just leaves the Israelis (the Gazans already have a wall, they just need more soldiers to man it). What are the odds Bibi and his political allies will go along?

 

[angelo]

You've got that all arse about. It's the israelis who need the giant wall to be protected from Arab terrorist attacks as they seem to be doing all the attacking including with incenderdery balloons. Sarcasm noted!

So a giant wall on the 1967 borders would be beneficial to both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Israelis can imprison anyone who enters their portion illegally, and the Palestinians can do the same. Win-win!!

Sounds like you and I just came up with a plan we both can agree on, and I'm pretty sure Abbas and the PA will like it too. So that just leaves the Israelis (the Gazans already have a wall, they just need more soldiers to man it). What are the odds Bibi and his political allies will go along?

As you would know if you had any sense of fairness in you is the fact that the 67 borders are not defensible. Israel, [what would be left of it] would be sitting ducks to the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA.

 

[Arctish]

You've got that all arse about. It's the israelis who need the giant wall to be protected from Arab terrorist attacks as they seem to be doing all the attacking including with incenderdery balloons. Sarcasm noted!

So a giant wall on the 1967 borders would be beneficial to both the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Israelis can imprison anyone who enters their portion illegally, and the Palestinians can do the same. Win-win!!

Sounds like you and I just came up with a plan we both can agree on, and I'm pretty sure Abbas and the PA will like it too. So that just leaves the Israelis (the Gazans already have a wall, they just need more soldiers to man it). What are the odds Bibi and his political allies will go along?

As you would know if you had any sense of fairness in you is the fact that the 67 borders are not defensible. Israel, [what would be left of it] would be sitting ducks to the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA.

I disagree. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps Israel should withdraw to the 1947 borders. Those proved to be quite defensible. The area between them and the 1967 lines can be a neutral zone. The Israelis and Palestinians can each have their own walls to defend and they won't be so close together that some stupid prank might start another war.

I think this plan is really coming together!

Anyway, the point is that Israel takes whatever it wants from the Palestinians in the West Bank - land, water, infrastructure, oxygen machines, playground equipment, etc., a fact you don't dispute. Without a political solution in place, its damn near guaranteed Israel will either take what that $50bn in investments buys for its own use, or will seize and sell like it sold those donated classrooms. I can see why Netanyahu likes Kushner's proposal, but I can't see anything about it that would appeal to Abbas and the Palestinians.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Suppose the Palestinians accept the Kushner plan. What do you think happens next? If past performance is indicative of future behavior (and it usually is), Israel will seize everything that $50 billion in investments builds. Every road, every water distribution system, every solar array, every factory, everything. Netanyahu already said all of 'Judea and Samaria' belongs to Israel. And the "Israelis" refuse to acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to claim any part of Palestine. So really, without a deal on Israel's borders, Kushner's plan is just another giveaway for the Jewish State.

What the Palestinians need is a giant wall on their border to keep the illegal immigrants out, and to detain the border crossers in concentration camps internment centers *ahem* detention facilities until they can be deported. Now that's a plan we can all get behind, amiright?

They haven't seized the stuff in the past, why would they seize it in the future?

Huh???

You're taking a few staged examples where stuff was seized as evidence everything get seized.

 

[angelo]

As you would know if you had any sense of fairness in you is the fact that the 67 borders are not defensible. Israel, [what would be left of it] would be sitting ducks to the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA.

I disagree. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps Israel should withdraw to the 1947 borders. Those proved to be quite defensible. The area between them and the 1967 lines can be a neutral zone. The Israelis and Palestinians can each have their own walls to defend and they won't be so close together that some stupid prank might start another war.

I think this plan is really coming together!

Anyway, the point is that Israel takes whatever it wants from the Palestinians in the West Bank - land, water, infrastructure, oxygen machines, playground equipment, etc., a fact you don't dispute. Without a political solution in place, its damn near guaranteed Israel will either take what that $50bn in investments buys for its own use, or will seize and sell like it sold those donated classrooms. I can see why Netanyahu likes Kushner's proposal, but I can't see anything about it that would appeal to Abbas and the Palestinians.

Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placade the Arabs. Even if that were to eventuate, [which it won't without the Israelis taking 90% of the Arabs with them] the victorious Arabs would withing weeks start murdering each other!

 

[Arctish]

As you would know if you had any sense of fairness in you is the fact that the 67 borders are not defensible. Israel, [what would be left of it] would be sitting ducks to the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA.

I disagree. But perhaps you're right. Perhaps Israel should withdraw to the 1947 borders. Those proved to be quite defensible. The area between them and the 1967 lines can be a neutral zone. The Israelis and Palestinians can each have their own walls to defend and they won't be so close together that some stupid prank might start another war.

I think this plan is really coming together!

Anyway, the point is that Israel takes whatever it wants from the Palestinians in the West Bank - land, water, infrastructure, oxygen machines, playground equipment, etc., a fact you don't dispute. Without a political solution in place, its damn near guaranteed Israel will either take what that $50bn in investments buys for its own use, or will seize and sell like it sold those donated classrooms. I can see why Netanyahu likes Kushner's proposal, but I can't see anything about it that would appeal to Abbas and the Palestinians.

Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placade the Arabs. Even if that were to eventuate, [which it won't without the Israelis taking 90% of the Arabs with them] the victorious Arabs would withing weeks start murdering each other!

So you don't think keeping illegal Jewish immigrants out of the West Bank is a good idea? Loren says it's so dangerous for Jews there it's like they're living among hungry lions, and all that keeps them safe is their walls. You seem to agree on the level of danger but use different metaphors. And you are utterly opposed to illegal immigration in other places. So why am I the only one among the three of us who believes in keeping Israeli Jews safe by keeping them inside Israel and out of harm's way?

Anyway, you haven't disputed the fact Israel takes what it wants from the Palestinians. IMO that $50bn in donations would do nothing but enrich American and Israeli contractors and whatever it built would soon become Property of Israel. And I think you know it.

 

[angelo]

Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placade the Arabs. Even if that were to eventuate, [which it won't without the Israelis taking 90% of the Arabs with them] the victorious Arabs would withing weeks start murdering each other!

So you don't think keeping illegal Jewish immigrants out of the West Bank is a good idea? Loren says it's so dangerous for Jews there it's like they're living among hungry lions, and all that keeps them safe is their walls. You seem to agree on the level of danger but use different metaphors. And you are utterly opposed to illegal immigration in other places. So why am I the only one among the three of us who believes in keeping Israeli Jews safe by keeping them inside Israel and out of harm's way?

Anyway, you haven't disputed the fact Israel takes what it wants from the Palestinians. IMO that $50bn in donations would do nothing but enrich American and Israeli contractors and whatever it built would soon become Property of Israel. And I think you know it.

Where do you see evidence that this plan will enrich American or Israeli interests? The contractors involved could negotiate joint projects, for example Arab labour. But nothing will eventuate because Arab Palestinians, as they've dome dozens of times before, reject any plan that doesn't involve the complete destruction of a Jewish state.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-but-gets-cautious-nod-in-gulf-idUSKCN1TR0YC

 

[Arctish]

Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placade the Arabs. Even if that were to eventuate, [which it won't without the Israelis taking 90% of the Arabs with them] the victorious Arabs would withing weeks start murdering each other!

So you don't think keeping illegal Jewish immigrants out of the West Bank is a good idea? Loren says it's so dangerous for Jews there it's like they're living among hungry lions, and all that keeps them safe is their walls. You seem to agree on the level of danger but use different metaphors. And you are utterly opposed to illegal immigration in other places. So why am I the only one among the three of us who believes in keeping Israeli Jews safe by keeping them inside Israel and out of harm's way?

Anyway, you haven't disputed the fact Israel takes what it wants from the Palestinians. IMO that $50bn in donations would do nothing but enrich American and Israeli contractors and whatever it built would soon become Property of Israel. And I think you know it.

Where do you see evidence that this plan will enrich American or Israeli interests? The contractors involved could negotiate joint projects, for example Arab labour. But nothing will eventuate because Arab Palestinians, as they've dome dozens of times before, reject any plan that doesn't involve the complete destruction of a Jewish state.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-but-gets-cautious-nod-in-gulf-idUSKCN1TR0YC

First sentence from your link:

MANAMA (Reuters) - Palestinians on Wednesday poured scorn on the Trump administration’s $50 billion investment plan to help achieve Middle East peace, but U.S. Gulf Arab allies said the economic initiative had promise if a political settlement is reached.

If a political settlement is reached.

Also:

“It is totally divorced from reality. The elephant in the room is the (Israeli) occupation itself,” she told a news conference in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank.
The Palestinians and many Arabs in the region have dismissed Kushner’s plan for a trade and investment boost as pointless without a political deal. Arab states, including Saudi Arabia, say any deal must be based on a two-state solution, which has underpinned every peace plan for decades.

and:

Saudi Arabia said on the eve of the conference that any peace deal should be based on a Saudi-led Arab initiative that calls for a Palestinian state drawn along borders which predate Israel’s capture of territory in the 1967 Middle East war. It envisages a capital in East Jerusalem and refugees’ right of return - points rejected by Israel.

However,

Kushner has said the plan would not adhere to the Arab initiative.

I bet $1,000,000 that Kushner's super secret political plan doesn't acknowledge the Right of Palestinians to live in Palestine, or recognize the Rights of Refugees under international law. I bet $2,000,000 it doesn't dispute Netanyahu's assertion that all of the West Bank belongs to Israel, but I do think Kushner will be rather coy about it.

IOW, I think his new plan is the same as the old one, except he's trying to co-opt the offer Arab States made years ago to invest in the State of Palestine and turn it into investments in the State of Israel.

 

[repoman]

#openbordersforisrael