So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."

[Arctish]

Three days ago you were saying "Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placate the Arabs." Now you're saying Arabs and Jews live together harmoniously in Israel. So which is it? Can Arabs and Jews live together in peace, or are Arabs all bloodthirsty Jew-haters who would murder any Jew in their communities?

If the answer is "Arabs and Jews can live together in peace", then wtf is your problem with Palestinian refugees returning to their communities inside Israel's 1967 borders or settling into new communities in the West Bank?

If the answer is "Arabs will murder all Jews but not before Jews kill 90% of them" , then wtf is your problem separating them with a giant wall built on the clearly defensible 1967 borders (Israel won the 1973 war, you know), or the even more clearly defensible 1948 borders (Israel has won every war since its victory in its War of Independence). Why aren't you denouncing the practice of moving Jewish families into West Bank settlements where innocent Jewish children live in what you describe as unconscionable danger?

And if you don't mind my asking, are you in favor of the Two State solution, where Israel remains a Jewish State and Christian and Muslim Palestinians live in their own separate Palestinian State, or are you in favor of the One State solution, where Israel encompasses all of the former kingdoms of Israel and Judea and has within its borders a Christian and Muslim population numbering in the millions?

Perhaps you're in favor of the Ethno-religious State solution, where racism and religious bigotry are enshrined as founding principles and 'undesirables' are rounded up into 'relocation centers' until the authorities decide how to permanently dispose of them. Are you?

I meant the Arab/Israelis, not the general Arabs as live in Gaza, Iraq, Iran and many other Arab states that will never accept a democracy such as Israel in their midst!

So living in Israel makes Arabs not hate Jews?

If that's your argument, you should definitely want the refugees to live there. And the Gazans.

 

[Arctish]

The people who never lived on the east side of the Jordan River, and saw no reason to leave their homes until armed Zionist thugs forced them out at gunpoint?

No, Arabs want their cake and eat it too. I repeat. Arab Palestinians already have a bigger in area than Israel in the state of Jordan!. What they really want is Jordanian Palestinian state all the way to the sea.

Inside Jordan was never their home. Their homes are on the west side of the Jordan River, and they don't want to leave.

That's not having their cake and eating it too. That's just having a home and wanting to stay in it.

 

[Jayjay]

The people who never lived on the east side of the Jordan River, and saw no reason to leave their homes until armed Zionist thugs forced them out at gunpoint?

No, Arabs want their cake and eat it too. I repeat. Arab Palestinians already have a bigger in area than Israel in the state of Jordan!. What they really want is Jordanian Palestinian state all the way to the sea.

That's like saying that the Jews already have a bigger area in Europe, US, Russia or wherever they migrated from so there is nothing wrong with forcing them to move back there. With the exception that the Palestinians in West Bank nor their families never lived on the east side of the river.

 

[angelo]

This is what was originally planed. Completely different to what eventuated!

 

[Arctish]

View attachment 22296

This is what was originally planed. Completely different to what eventuated!

Yes, I know. The original plan was to uproot the native population of the western portion of Palestine and replace it with European Jews. It was a gross violation of human rights but at that time there was no international agreement on what those were, so Great Britain and the Zionist immigrants got away with it for years.

You seem to think that as long as there is a designated area for a displaced population to go, displacing them isn't a problem. Are you by chance an Andrew Jackson fan? He forced Native Americans out of their homes and onto the Trail of Tears. Did setting aside reservations for them in the scrublands in Oklahoma make it okay?

 

[angelo]

Whole Populations, throughout human history, for one reason or other have been uprooted and displaced. in recent history, Millions of Germans were displaced. I don't hear them moaning and whining as the Arabs are!

 

[lpetrich]

Whole Populations, throughout human history, for one reason or other have been uprooted and displaced. in recent history, Millions of Germans were displaced. I don't hear them moaning and whining as the Arabs are!

In other words, might makes right.

This expulsion of several million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II is something not talked about very much. But then again, Germany lost a war of conquest, and that's kept it from being better-known, I think.

 

[angelo]

Whole Populations, throughout human history, for one reason or other have been uprooted and displaced. in recent history, Millions of Germans were displaced. I don't hear them moaning and whining as the Arabs are!

In other words, might makes right.

This expulsion of several million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II is something not talked about very much. But then again, Germany lost a war of conquest, and that's kept it from being better-known, I think.

Displaced Germans had lived in Eastern Europe for generations. Never mind that they lost a war of conquest.
Islam conquered vast tracts of the middle East by war of conquest as well.

 

[Arctish]

Whole Populations, throughout human history, for one reason or other have been uprooted and displaced. in recent history, Millions of Germans were displaced. I don't hear them moaning and whining as the Arabs are!

In other words, might makes right.

This expulsion of several million ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II is something not talked about very much. But then again, Germany lost a war of conquest, and that's kept it from being better-known, I think.

Displaced Germans had lived in Eastern Europe for generations. Never mind that they lost a war of conquest.
Islam conquered vast tracts of the middle East by war of conquest as well.

The Ottoman Turks conquered the Middle East. They did not displace the native population.

I asked if you were in favor of the One State, the Two State, or the Ethno-religious State solution. It's pretty obvious you prefer the Ethno-religious State. Your touting how nice living in Israel is for 'Arab' Israelis was just tokenism. You certainly don't want more non-Jews to live there. You're frustrated the plan to extirpate the native population from the western side of the Jordan River failed, and you're angry they continue to resist being displaced, so that now when Israel annexes the West Bank it will come with millions upon millions of non-Jews and Israelis will look like assholes when they drive them out. You're an Andrew Jackson kind of guy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I noted earlier in this thread, it's like you never actually read any of my posts these past 16 years, you just made up bullshit strawman arguments and pretended that's what I said.

If you can't read what I post with comprehension, stop quoting me.

If you are deliberately lying about what I post in order to sneak in an ad hominem attack and pretend you made an astute observation, you're not only dishonest, you're ridiculous.

Stop shipping your vile suppositions into my posts. I don't share your fear and hatred of people. That shit is all yours.

Right of return is the codeword for the destruction of Israel by demographic means so the Jews can be genocided. They make little secret of this, you just pretend they don't mean what they say. This is either major-level denial of the type usually associated with religion, or you actually want the genocide.

That's your racism and bigotry talking. I don't share it. In fact, I think it's pretty stupid to believe that human beings of one religion or ethnicity are fundamentally different from human beings of another one. And I think you'd have to be pretty damn ignorant to not realize where that sort of thinking leads.

You can call a fair, just, and peaceful multicultural, multiracial, and multireligious society "Inconceivable!" all you want. Either you can't conceive something everyone else can plainly see, or that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I call it inconceivable because the Palestinians have made it clear that they would use the ballot box to get rid of the Jews. Why won't you believe what they say they want??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Then you aren't reading my posts with comprehension, either.

I'm not the one in favor of putting Jews in danger by placing them in tiny settlements surrounded by hungry lions and people who want all Jews everywhere to die. I'm not the one proposing to incinerate people in their homes because of a political dispute, or because of their race, religion, or ethnicity. I'm not the one pushing for more war, more suffering, more oppression, and more mayhem.

I'm the one saying the Two State solution is dead, the One State solution is underway, and all that remains to be seen is how long before Palestinians living under Israeli rule get equal rights. Netanyahu and his allies will put up a fight, but I think future generations will look at them the way Americans these days look at the racist bigots who ruled the Confederacy.

Most Israeli Arabs have far more freedom and a standard of living no other Arab enjoys anywhere else in the whole Arab world. Why, there's even Arab members of the Knesset for gawds sake! It's up to the Palestinian Arabs to stop their hatred of the Jews and embrace them instead. But that's not possible in Islam as the Arabs are taught/brainwashed from a very young age to hate all all non muslims and especially Jews.

Three days ago you were saying "Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placate the Arabs." Now you're saying Arabs and Jews live together harmoniously in Israel. So which is it? Can Arabs and Jews live together in peace, or are Arabs all bloodthirsty Jew-haters who would murder any Jew in their communities?

There are two very different populations here:

The Arabs in Palestine have spent a lifetime being brainwashed into mindless hatred of Israel. The Arabs in Israel have not. Is it any wonder that the latter coexist far better than the former?

If the answer is "Arabs will murder all Jews but not before Jews kill 90% of them" , then wtf is your problem separating them with a giant wall built on the clearly defensible 1967 borders (Israel won the 1973 war, you know), or the even more clearly defensible 1948 borders (Israel has won every war since its victory in its War of Independence). Why aren't you denouncing the practice of moving Jewish families into West Bank settlements where innocent Jewish children live in what you describe as unconscionable danger?

Winning the 1973 war is utterly irrelevant to to the 1967 borders!

Besides, the only way Israel could have won the 1973 war was by going nuclear. (The actual victory was due to American resupply, not due to defensible borders.)

Besides, these days what Israel is more concerned about with defensibility is protection against terrorist rockets, not against armies. The Palestinian human shield tactics mean that counterbatterying enemy artillery is no longer acceptable.

 

[Arctish]

That's your racism and bigotry talking. I don't share it. In fact, I think it's pretty stupid to believe that human beings of one religion or ethnicity are fundamentally different from human beings of another one. And I think you'd have to be pretty damn ignorant to not realize where that sort of thinking leads.

You can call a fair, just, and peaceful multicultural, multiracial, and multireligious society "Inconceivable!" all you want. Either you can't conceive something everyone else can plainly see, or that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I call it inconceivable because the Palestinians have made it clear that they would use the ballot box to get rid of the Jews. Why won't you believe what they say they want??

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

 

[Arctish]

Three days ago you were saying "Nothing short of a complete genocide of every single Jew in Palestine would placate the Arabs." Now you're saying Arabs and Jews live together harmoniously in Israel. So which is it? Can Arabs and Jews live together in peace, or are Arabs all bloodthirsty Jew-haters who would murder any Jew in their communities?

There are two very different populations here:

The Arabs in Palestine have spent a lifetime being brainwashed into mindless hatred of Israel. The Arabs in Israel have not. Is it any wonder that the latter coexist far better than the former?

^Unsupported assertion. Frankly it looks like racist bigoted dogma, not anything you actually researched.

But supposing for a moment it's true, it means you should be in favor of the refugees returning to Israel with priority given to families with young children. All those people would have the benefit of knowing how wonderful it is to live there (if their elders who were driven out in 1948 haven't already told them), and there would be no anti-Jew brainwashing.

Oh wait, what's that I hear? It sounds like outraged howling coming from racist bigots who refuse to even consider undoing the effects of ethnic cleansing. You know, the ones who say Jews and non-Jews live together in peace in Israel one day, and that it's Inconceivable! they could ever live together in peace the next.

If the answer is "Arabs will murder all Jews but not before Jews kill 90% of them" , then wtf is your problem separating them with a giant wall built on the clearly defensible 1967 borders (Israel won the 1973 war, you know), or the even more clearly defensible 1948 borders (Israel has won every war since its victory in its War of Independence). Why aren't you denouncing the practice of moving Jewish families into West Bank settlements where innocent Jewish children live in what you describe as unconscionable danger?

Winning the 1973 war is utterly irrelevant to to the 1967 borders!

Besides, the only way Israel could have won the 1973 war was by going nuclear. (The actual victory was due to American resupply, not due to defensible borders.)

Besides, these days what Israel is more concerned about with defensibility is protection against terrorist rockets, not against armies. The Palestinian human shield tactics mean that counterbatterying enemy artillery is no longer acceptable.

The 1967 borders are as defensible as any other borders in the Middle East. Both the international community and the PA have agreed to legitimize the Zionist land grab that resulted in them. Israel refuses to respect the 1967 border, and while that's a problem for the Palestinians, it's not their fault.

 

[repoman]

good book:

https://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Better-Judgment-History/dp/149591092X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486686134&sr=8-1&keywords=against+our+better+judgment+the+hidden+history

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's your racism and bigotry talking. I don't share it. In fact, I think it's pretty stupid to believe that human beings of one religion or ethnicity are fundamentally different from human beings of another one. And I think you'd have to be pretty damn ignorant to not realize where that sort of thinking leads.

You can call a fair, just, and peaceful multicultural, multiracial, and multireligious society "Inconceivable!" all you want. Either you can't conceive something everyone else can plainly see, or that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I call it inconceivable because the Palestinians have made it clear that they would use the ballot box to get rid of the Jews. Why won't you believe what they say they want??

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

Huh? Where is this poll you are referring to? This is nothing like anything I've seen out of there.

 

[Arctish]

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

Huh? Where is this poll you are referring to? This is nothing like anything I've seen out of there.

You posted it!

I guess you only read a paragraph or two because you focused on the part where ~75% of Palestinians said they didn't trust the negotiation process would result in the Two State solution they wanted (Netanyahu was PM so of course it wouldn't) or that their rights would be respected, which you called proof they weren't serious about peace. We discussed it at length and our discussions kept referring to it for quite a while.

The PA recognized Israel, ceded the territory inside the 1967 borders to it, and are now pursuing recognition of the Palestinian State outside them among the international diplomatic community. Its support for the 1967 borders and Two State solution has been clear since the Oslo Accords were negotiated.

Honestly, if you're this clueless about the consistent, widespread, and majority-driven Palestinian support for a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders after all these years discussing it, you've gone beyond partisanship and into mindless dogmatic droning mode.

 

[angelo]

That's your racism and bigotry talking. I don't share it. In fact, I think it's pretty stupid to believe that human beings of one religion or ethnicity are fundamentally different from human beings of another one. And I think you'd have to be pretty damn ignorant to not realize where that sort of thinking leads.

You can call a fair, just, and peaceful multicultural, multiracial, and multireligious society "Inconceivable!" all you want. Either you can't conceive something everyone else can plainly see, or that word doesn't mean what you think it means.

I call it inconceivable because the Palestinians have made it clear that they would use the ballot box to get rid of the Jews. Why won't you believe what they say they want??

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

What they really want is the annihilation of any state of Israel. Muslim ideology is that whatever Islam conquers, has to remain muslim for ever.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

Huh? Where is this poll you are referring to? This is nothing like anything I've seen out of there.

You posted it!

I guess you only read a paragraph or two because you focused on the part where ~75% of Palestinians said they didn't trust the negotiation process would result in the Two State solution they wanted (Netanyahu was PM so of course it wouldn't) or that their rights would be respected, which you called proof they weren't serious about peace. We discussed it at length and our discussions kept referring to it for quite a while.

No, you changed it. Key: "that they wanted". They see a two-state "solution" as a stepping-stone to continued conquest. They want a state with no expectation of being peaceful.

The PA recognized Israel, ceded the territory inside the 1967 borders to it, and are now pursuing recognition of the Palestinian State outside them among the international diplomatic community. Its support for the 1967 borders and Two State solution has been clear since the Oslo Accords were negotiated.

ROTFL.

Honestly, if you're this clueless about the consistent, widespread, and majority-driven Palestinian support for a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders after all these years discussing it, you've gone beyond partisanship and into mindless dogmatic droning mode.

You've fallen for their propaganda.

 

[Arctish]

The overwhelming majority have said they would accept the 1967 borders, both in the PA and among ordinary citizens. They want the Jews to stay in Israel. They want the Zionist settlers out of the West Bank unless those settlers are willing to become citizens of the State of Palestine and stop being assholes. They also want their Rights under international law to be acknowledged and respected, which should happen anyway; they shouldn't have to ask.

What they really want is the annihilation of any state of Israel. Muslim ideology is that whatever Islam conquers, has to remain muslim for ever.

What I find so interesting about ^this response is that you are accusing Muslims of thinking like Zionists.

Netanyahu-type Zionists claim a Right to rule all the land that belonged to the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and never mind that those kingdoms disappeared thousands of years ago. YHWH gave the land to Jews, and once Jewish land, always Jewish land, for Jews only.

You say Muslims have the exact same mindset. You say they're all devout fundamentalists who believe that once a land has been claimed for Islam it must be ruled by Muslims forever. Jews and Christians might live there, but the land belongs to people who submit to the will of Allah, not those 'others' who defy Him.

I guess you see the conflict as a winner-take-all proposition and that's why you reject anything resembling compromise and sharing. You seem to think one version of "God wants us to have this land, not you!" must utterly vanquish the other before there can be peace, and you obviously want the Zionists to win.

 

[Arctish]

You posted it!

I guess you only read a paragraph or two because you focused on the part where ~75% of Palestinians said they didn't trust the negotiation process would result in the Two State solution they wanted (Netanyahu was PM so of course it wouldn't) or that their rights would be respected, which you called proof they weren't serious about peace. We discussed it at length and our discussions kept referring to it for quite a while.

No, you changed it. Key: "that they wanted". They see a two-state "solution" as a stepping-stone to continued conquest. They want a state with no expectation of being peaceful.

The PA recognized Israel, ceded the territory inside the 1967 borders to it, and are now pursuing recognition of the Palestinian State outside them among the international diplomatic community. Its support for the 1967 borders and Two State solution has been clear since the Oslo Accords were negotiated.

ROTFL.

Honestly, if you're this clueless about the consistent, widespread, and majority-driven Palestinian support for a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders after all these years discussing it, you've gone beyond partisanship and into mindless dogmatic droning mode.

You've fallen for their propaganda.

You don't know what's propaganda because you refuse to learn the facts.

I once started a thread on the Oslo Accords just for you. I wanted to discuss what they actually spelled out and what might be reasonably inferred from the text, but you wouldn't even read them. I wanted to discuss the popularity and practicality of the various proposals, the push back from certain factions, the assassination of Rabin and the subsequent negotiations, etc. You wouldn't read any documents, follow any links, consider any comments from participants, or anything of the sort. You just kept posting unsupported assertions, wild guesses, and bullshit.

In fact, you actually reposted something that had already been shown to be bullshit, but I guess you liked what it said so you shared it again.

You're not an authority on this topic. You don't even read your own sources, much less anyone else's.