angelo
Deleted
Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge of the Jews and their history........................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history
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Features
So Bibi Wants To Begin The "Final Solution."
- Thread starter Ford
- Start date
Perhaps you should refresh your knowledge of the Jews and their history........................................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history
Arctish
Centimillionaire
You make it sound like I haven't been quoting, referencing, and posting links to articles, books, and encyclopedia entries on the history of the region and its people. Is that because
a) you didn't follow the links and/or read them,
b) you forgot I linked to articles on the region's history, or
c) you don't care what I linked or quoted or based my arguments on, you prefer to think I don't know what I'm talking about rather than grapple with why I disagree with you?
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angelo
Deleted
You know Jack Schitt about the problems the Israelis face because you turn a blind eye to the Palestinian Arabs acts of violence and terrorism towards Jews, not just in Palestine as a whole either.
Open both eyes, you may then see, but I very much doubt it!
By choosing to hold the protests under the banner of the "Three No's," the organizers of the "Great March of Return" have again proven that the weekly demonstrations are not about improving the living conditions of Palestinians or easing restrictions imposed on the Gaza Strip. Instead, the message the organizers are sending to the Palestinians and the rest of the world is: "We don't recognize Israel's right to exist and therefore we will never make negotiate or make peace with it."
Hamas's two other "No's" – no to recognizing Israel and no to making peace with Israel – do not come as a surprise. In fact, Hamas appears to be reminding Palestinians of its true objectives as outlined in its 1988 charter: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question expect through Jihad (holy war). Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors...[Hamas] believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered."
This is all that Hamas has to offer the Palestinians 12 years after its violent takeover of the Gaza Strip? Sadly, thousands of Palestinians continue to heed Hamas's call for trying to breach the border with Israel every Friday while ignoring that it is their leaders who are mainly responsible for dragging them from one disaster to another.
On the one hand, Hamas is sending Palestinians to clash with Israeli soldiers along the Gaza-Israel border under the banner of "No to negotiations [with Israel]." On the other hand, Hamas is begging the Egyptians and the UN to help arrange a ceasefire with Israel. Pictured: Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh greets protesters in Gaza, at the border fence with Israel, on May 15, 2018. (Image source: Spencer Platt/Getty Images)
When the Palestinians launched the weekly protests along the Gaza-Israel border in March 2017, they said that their No. 1 goal was to force Israel to lift the "blockade" on the Gaza Strip. The protests, however, according to the organizers, have another goal: achieving the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees and their descendants to their former homes inside Israel.
The protests, held under the banner "The Great March of Return," have since been hijacked by Hamas and other Gaza-based Palestinian armed groups who are using them to advance their political agendas.
The weekly demonstrations are no longer aimed either at lifting the "blockade" on the Gaza Strip or paving the way for millions of refugees and their descendants to return to their former homes.
On July 12, the weekly protests along the border with Israel were held under the banner of "No to negotiations [with Israel], no to reconciliation [with Israel] and no to recognizing the [Israeli] entity."
The Three No's appear based on the Khartoum Resolution issued at the conclusion of the Arab League summit convened three months after the 1967 Six-Day War between Israel and the Arab countries: No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with it.
By choosing to hold the protests under the banner of the "Three No's," the organizers of the "Great March of Return" have again proven that the weekly demonstrations are not about improving the living conditions of Palestinians or easing restrictions imposed on the Gaza Strip. Instead, the message the organizers are sending to the Palestinians and the rest of the world is: "We don't recognize Israel's right to exist and therefore we will never make negotiate or make peace with it."
Even some Palestinians have expressed astonishment over the Gaza protests' "Three No's," calling them "unrealistic" and "absurd."
Hassan Asfour, a former Palestinian Authority (PA) cabinet minister and political analyst, scoffed at the organizers' decision to use the "Three No's" during the protests along the border with Israel. Denouncing the decision as "damaging," Asfour said that the organizers of the demonstrations "have become stranger to the public scene and are engaging in political cynicism." He added:
"Unrealistic slogans never serve the national struggle. We do not believe there is a Palestinians who would have been able to read that slogan (the "Three No's") without being ridiculed because he sees how Arab interaction with Israel has become closer than interaction with the Palestinians."
Next week's Friday protests will be held under the banner "Burning the Zionist flag." The organizers announced that the "peaceful" and "popular" protests will continue "until the Palestinians achieve their rights." The protests along the border with Israel, they said, are also aimed at foiling US President Donald Trump's plan for peace in the Middle East, also known as the "Deal of the Century," and abrogating the Oslo Accords signed in 1993 between Israel and the Palestinians.
In the eyes of Hamas and the organizers of the weekly demonstrations, burning the "Zionist flag" and foiling a peace plan to end the conflict with Israel is part of a "peaceful" and "popular" protest.
Last June, the weekly protests were held under the banner "The Friday of foiling the Bahrain conference" – reference to the recent US-led "Peace to Prosperity" economic workshop sponsored by the Trump administration. The Palestinian Authority called on Palestinians and Arabs to boycott the workshop on the pretext that it was part of Trump's scheme to "liquidate the Palestinian cause."
At the workshop, the Trump administration unveiled the economic portion of the "Deal of the Century" -- a plan that "represents the most ambitious and comprehensive international effort for the Palestinian people to date and which has the ability to fundamentally transform the West Bank and Gaza and to open a new chapter in Palestinian history."
The thousands of Palestinians who participated in the protest against the Bahrain workshop were in fact saying no to economic prosperity and improving their own living conditions. Ironically, the organizers of the weekly protests were acting against their own declared goal: ending the "blockade" and improving the economy and living conditions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.
Last April, the organizers of the weekly protests again proved that the demonstrations near the border with Israel are totally unrelated to the suffering of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. This April protests were held under the banner "Together against normalization [with Israel], " and The demonstration was directed against some Arab states that were accused by Palestinians of normalizing their relations with Israel.
Bizarrely, while the organizers of the weekly protests are voicing their opposition to negotiations with Israel, they are at the same time conducting indirect talks with Israel on ways to reach a truce between Israel and Hamas.
The indirect negotiations are being held under the auspices of Egypt and the United Nations. Last week, a senior Egyptian security delegation visited Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip as part of an effort to preserve those truce understandings.
Hamas said that under the unwritten terms, Israel agreed gradually to lift restrictions imposed on the Gaza Strip in exchange for calm. The Israeli measures include expanding the fishing zone and allowing Qatar to deliver financial aid to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. However, continued rocket and arson balloon attacks from the Gaza Strip toward Israel have hindered the implementation of the understandings.
On the one hand, Hamas is sending Palestinians to clash with Israeli soldiers along the Gaza-Israel border under the banner of "No to negotiations [with Israel]." On the other hand, Hamas is begging the Egyptians and the UN to help arrange a ceasefire with Israel. The pounding seems a way of trying to coerce the Israelis into bigger concessions, faster.
Hamas's two other "No's" -- no to recognizing Israel and no to making peace with Israel -- do not come as a surprise. In fact, Hamas appears to be reminding Palestinians of its true objectives as outlined in its 1988 charter:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question expect through Jihad (holy war). Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors...[Hamas] believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered."
Evidently Hamas, instead of seeking ways to solve the economic crisis in the Gaza Strip, is taking advantage of the weekly protests to advance its ideology.
In addition, Hamas is now seeking to take Palestinians 52 years back, to the days when the Arab countries issued their three No's.
This is all that Hamas has to offer the Palestinians 12 years after its violent takeover of the Gaza Strip? Sadly, thousands of Palestinians continue to heed Hamas's call for heading to the border with Israel every Friday while ignoring that it is their leaders who are mainly responsible for dragging them from one disaster to another. Now that Hamas has again revealed its true intentions, it should change the name of the weekly protests from the "Great March of Return" to the "March to destroy Israel" or the "March to destroy peace."
Khaled Abu Toameh, an award-winning journalist based in Jerusalem, is a Shillman Journalism Fellow at Gatestone Institute.
Derec
Contributor
More on the actual "final solution" being sought in the Middle East ...
Arctish
Centimillionaire
That was an interesting article. Thanks for posting it. I can't tell if you found it on the Gatestone Institute website or somewhere else because you forgot to provide a link.
Anyway, to get back to my questions: last month I said I would stop providing links if you weren't interested in them. Are you reading the articles and documents I link to, or are you ignoring them?
And if you don't mind, can you summarize the parts of the Gatestone article you think are pertinent to our discussion? The author is criticizing the strategy behind the weekly demonstrations in Gaza and saying they're ineffectual. I don't think he wants a Hamas-led protest to succeed, so it looks to me like he's just criticizing the protesters for protesting.
Also, the author appears to be ignoring the fact that Hamas negotiates with Israel all the time and has been circulating an offer to recognize both the State of Palestine and the State of Israel based on the 1967 borders. Why is he ignoring this new development? It seems pretty significant to me.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
That guy is an asshole.
But at least he gave the Israelis a week to lift the siege and a fair warning that patience was running out.
angelo
Deleted
Put simply, the 1967 borders are indefensible!
angelo
Deleted
Then there is this little fact Palestinian Arabs would never admit to....................................https://www.quora.com/
Can you express your opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here?
Tim Benton
Tim Benton, Journalist for www.0censor.com, politics and Middle East
Answered Nov 24, 2018
Originally Answered: What are your honest thoughts on Israel and the Israeli or Palestinian conflict?
My honest thoughts?
That is easy, you have one people, the Jews, that under the Mandate of Palestine were promised the land under the legally binding treaty known as the Mandate of Palestine, you will find this defined in the opening paragraph after the preamble:
The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people….
This was set up by the legal sovereign of the land, the League of Nations who received sovereignty from the Ottoman Empire in the Treaty of Sevres.
What else happened after this is not important legally wise, the United Nations in their own charter promise to honor the Mandates, something they violated as soon as they had a chance with UN Res. #181, a resolution by the way that was rejected by the surrounding Arab nations with war, and in so doing made it so they never legally have a right to ask this resolution to be enforced, now that is international law.
What happened after is much of the problem. In 1948 one of the invading armies was Jordan, they invaded in 1948 what then was known as Judea and Samaria, they then proceeded to expel every woman out of the area, well unless they were doctors and nurses, then they slaughtered them, all while the British, who were leading them were watching.
They then after ethnically cleansing the Jews out of the area, imprisoning the men, which they held for some time, they moved in hundreds of thousands of Arabs to consolidate their claims, these are the same Arabs that now claim to have had lived in the land for 100’s of generations, even though no one can show a shred of evidence of having done so. Jordan then in 1950 annexed the land, all while this move was rejected by their fellow Arabs, well, other than Egypt, and the British, who as I said were leading their armies.
In 1967 the Arabs said they were going to destroy Israel, Israel took them at their word, when they kicked out the UN, then in what is an act of war under international law, put in place a blockade to the Red Sea through the Straights of Tiran, Israel attacked, kicked them all out of the land they had annexed illegally or in Egypt's case occupied.
The Arabs gave up their claims to the land, no, more specifically gave it up to the so-called Palestinians, the Arabs in 1967 had a magical moment there, they all as if by magic turned into Palestinians. The land they in their 1964 charter, specifically article 24, said they had no legal claim to, now in the same magic that turned them into Palestinians, gave them rise to find their historical claim to the land.
70 years later Israel says fine, show us this historical proof, we will deal, the Arabs say they can’t, but we will lie to the world, turn public opinion against you, and lie some more until everyone believes us without checking.
That is what I think of it, if you want the proof of my claims, here you go.
The Palestine Mandate
Look into the Palestinians Historical claims, what is fact, what is fiction
Did Israel Steal The Ancestral Home of the Palestinians? Part 1
The Palestinian Claim to Jerusalem - 0Censor
The whole problem comes when you start to dig for facts, facts are the worst enemy the Arabs face, they fight with claims of Islamophobia and a host of other names to try to change the subject when you do question, but you know what they never do? Provide a shred of evidence to back up their claims.
Can you express your opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here?
Tim Benton
Tim Benton, Journalist for www.0censor.com, politics and Middle East
Answered Nov 24, 2018
Originally Answered: What are your honest thoughts on Israel and the Israeli or Palestinian conflict?
My honest thoughts?
That is easy, you have one people, the Jews, that under the Mandate of Palestine were promised the land under the legally binding treaty known as the Mandate of Palestine, you will find this defined in the opening paragraph after the preamble:
The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people….
This was set up by the legal sovereign of the land, the League of Nations who received sovereignty from the Ottoman Empire in the Treaty of Sevres.
What else happened after this is not important legally wise, the United Nations in their own charter promise to honor the Mandates, something they violated as soon as they had a chance with UN Res. #181, a resolution by the way that was rejected by the surrounding Arab nations with war, and in so doing made it so they never legally have a right to ask this resolution to be enforced, now that is international law.
What happened after is much of the problem. In 1948 one of the invading armies was Jordan, they invaded in 1948 what then was known as Judea and Samaria, they then proceeded to expel every woman out of the area, well unless they were doctors and nurses, then they slaughtered them, all while the British, who were leading them were watching.
They then after ethnically cleansing the Jews out of the area, imprisoning the men, which they held for some time, they moved in hundreds of thousands of Arabs to consolidate their claims, these are the same Arabs that now claim to have had lived in the land for 100’s of generations, even though no one can show a shred of evidence of having done so. Jordan then in 1950 annexed the land, all while this move was rejected by their fellow Arabs, well, other than Egypt, and the British, who as I said were leading their armies.
In 1967 the Arabs said they were going to destroy Israel, Israel took them at their word, when they kicked out the UN, then in what is an act of war under international law, put in place a blockade to the Red Sea through the Straights of Tiran, Israel attacked, kicked them all out of the land they had annexed illegally or in Egypt's case occupied.
The Arabs gave up their claims to the land, no, more specifically gave it up to the so-called Palestinians, the Arabs in 1967 had a magical moment there, they all as if by magic turned into Palestinians. The land they in their 1964 charter, specifically article 24, said they had no legal claim to, now in the same magic that turned them into Palestinians, gave them rise to find their historical claim to the land.
70 years later Israel says fine, show us this historical proof, we will deal, the Arabs say they can’t, but we will lie to the world, turn public opinion against you, and lie some more until everyone believes us without checking.
That is what I think of it, if you want the proof of my claims, here you go.
The Palestine Mandate
Look into the Palestinians Historical claims, what is fact, what is fiction
Did Israel Steal The Ancestral Home of the Palestinians? Part 1
The Palestinian Claim to Jerusalem - 0Censor
The whole problem comes when you start to dig for facts, facts are the worst enemy the Arabs face, they fight with claims of Islamophobia and a host of other names to try to change the subject when you do question, but you know what they never do? Provide a shred of evidence to back up their claims.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
Then Israel should withdraw to more defensible ones.
And if Israel is so concerned with defensible borders, why is it planting small colonies of Jews in the Middle of the Occupied West Bank? What are they, bait? Cannon fodder?
That whole line about Israel creating defensible borders is horseshit. Israel is expanding to encompass millions upon millions of Christian and Muslim Palestinians. They will most likely be isolated and impoverished, just as the Gazans are. And when they protest their imprisonment, people like that Gatestone article's author will bitch about it like they're ingrates or something.
That makes them even less defensible. The problem is how narrow Israel is.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
I do care. That's why I noted it.
He's an asshole but at least he's being polite. Most would-be mass murderers don't give their potential victims any warning at all, much less a way to avoid the mayhem.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
The 1948 borders have been successfully defended in every war Israel has fought.
And anyway, being narrow doesn't mean becoming fat with what remains of Palestinian lands is a fair, just, or even sensible solution, especially when the Palestinians will now be inside Israel. So unless Bibi intends to carry out a campaign of ethnic cleansing or genocide (and I wouldn't put either one past him), Israel is about to become fat with millions of Muslims and Christians.
The One State solution is underway. All that remains to be seen is how bloody the fight for Equal Rights for everyone under Israeli rule will be, and how long it takes.
angelo
Deleted
Withdraw to the 1948 borders perhaps? Arab armies attacked those too, remember? As for Israel occupying areas of the West Bank. These areas would remain israeli in any settlement with Hamas or PA in a swap of land for peace. But only an Arab apologist doesn't or won't understand that is the last thing Arab Palestinians want.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
Israel successfully defended them on multiple occasions, remember?
There's no such thing as a country so large it won't be attacked so if that's where you're going with this, don't bother. Adding what remains of Palestinian land to Israel won't make a difference wrt outside threats.
The area outside Israel's 1967 borders is not part of Israel, need not be part of Israel, and would not be part of Israel in a Two State solution.
The PLO explicitly stated it's support for a Two State solution based on the 1967 borders and Hamas is very pointedly hinting at it with their recent proposals. But IMO that ship sailed when Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a Zionist from the faction that wants it all, and that faction gained control of the country.
If you're saying the only likely solution at this point is the One State solution, I agree with you.
I still say they need a common threat. Tell them they have to find a way to get along, or we, the rest of the world, take the area away from them both and give the land to some third group who behaves better.
The PLO demanded 67 borders and the Right of Return. In other words, all of Israel.
Arctish
Centimillionaire
^This^ is bullshit. How unsurprising.
The PLO conceded the 1967 borders in order to get a Palestinian State. They didn't have to. Israel's seizure of land was illegal under international law and the UN Conventions. The Palestinian have the Right to claim all of Palestine as their ancestral homeland, but they were willing to accept less than 1/3 in order to secure recognition of their own State.
Refugees have the Right to return to the places from which they were driven by war, terrorism, institutional oppression and malice, etc. But the Palestinians made concessions there, too. They have agreed to a plan that would bring just a few thousand refugees back to their homes in Israel, not the ravening hoard you describe in your pulp fiction stories.
So, no, the PLO didn't demand all of Eretz Israel. That was Netanyahu's faction, and it looks like they will get what they want.
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Ford
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Help me out here...can you point out on a map where the '67 borders = "all of Israel?"
I'll wait.
angelo
Deleted
The PLO? You mean their leader Abbas who was elected for a four year term 14 years ago?