So why is this a bad thing?

[RavenSky]

“I don’t think it’s about me,” said Gill, the Harvard student. “I feel like I’m pretty good guy. But if I’m talking to a girl and want to gauge her interest, I’m more cautious than I used to be. I don’t want to cross the line.”

Often considered a social enhancer by students, alcohol now can cast a shadow over sex when there’s any suggestion that it may have dimmed a woman’s judgment. Oscar Sandoval, a senior at Stanford University, near Palo Alto, California, got a text message late one spring evening from a female friend. Did he feel like hanging out?

When his friend arrived from a party she was drunk, he said. Her flirting and touching made Sandoval uncomfortable. Something about the situation reminded him of educational sessions he’d had in prior years where he’d learned about sexual consent. Sandoval walked his friend back to her dorm.

“Among the people I hang out with, there’s more hesitancy to hook up with someone when there’s alcohol involved,” Sandoval, 21, said. “Something that you might have thought would be okay when you were drunk might not be okay later on. ”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...arvard-stanford-wanes-amid-assault-alarm.html

And here again is the trouble with how we talk about sex, consent and sexual violence in the United States. There are so many ways to flirt and have really enjoyable casual sex without being predatory, but we never talk about them. The importance of listening to the person you’re interested in having sex with and being alert to non-verbal cues certainly isn’t being taught in schools, and this kind of thing generally isn’t modeled in pop culture. So we have a vacuum about relationships and healthy sexuality. And that vacuum gets filled by banana brains like George Will, Caitlin Flanagan and the people on Fox News who can shout the loudest, people who believe that much of what’s called sexual assault is actually just “regretted sex,” a product of the “ambiguities of hookup culture.”

Which is why we now have young men telling Bloomberg News that they basically view their female peers as rape bombs just waiting to explode and ruin their lives. “Some men feel that too much responsibility for preventing sexual assault has been put on their shoulders,” according to one of the men interviewed for the piece.

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/21/col...ape_seriously_is_ruining_their_sex_lives/?upw

 

[Bronzeage]

I can't see the downside.

There are a few pieces of cliche advice which are intended to irritate. "If you have to ask, you can't afford it," is one. "If you have to ask, you'll never understand it," is another. The "How can I avoid being charged with rape?" question deserves just such an answer.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Just make sure you take a couple of shots. Then if she charges you with rape, send her rapist ass to jail.

 

[untermensche]

Just make sure you take a couple of shots. Then if she charges you with rape, send her rapist ass to jail.

Has that defense ever been used successfully?

What do you mean I raped her?

I was drunk, she raped me.

 

[Derec]

Just make sure you take a couple of shots. Then if she charges you with rape, send her rapist ass to jail.

Has that defense ever been used successfully?

What do you mean I raped her?

I was drunk, she raped me.

Of course not, as college "sexual assault Gestapo" is a feminist outfit and first law of feminism is "men and women are equal but women are more equal than men".

I have been posting several cases where a female student alleged "rape" because she regretted a hookup where she'd been drinking (and remained highly functional, not passed out or anything close to it) and the guy and only the guy has been inevitably expelled even though he'd been drinking as well. In other words, a disgusting double standard. Either expel both or, very preferably since it wasn't rape, neither.

As to RavenSky's OP, the "bad thing" is that it is a gross overreaction. Yes, people should not seek sex with people who can't consent due to being intoxicated. But there is a big separation between "stone cold sober" and "unable to consent due to alcohol" where booze has for millennia been a sort of social lubricant between the sexes.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Just make sure you take a couple of shots. Then if she charges you with rape, send her rapist ass to jail.

Has that defense ever been used successfully?

What do you mean I raped her?

I was drunk, she raped me.

Pretty sure the guy is going to be held reaponsible even if he was drunk and the woman was sober. Does anybody here really think otherwise?

 

[RavenSky]

As to RavenSky's OP, the "bad thing" is that it is a gross overreaction. Yes, people should not seek sex with people who can't consent due to being intoxicated. But there is a big separation between "stone cold sober" and "unable to consent due to alcohol" where booze has for millennia been a sort of social lubricant between the sexes.

And if the college boy doesn't think he can tell the difference, what is the problem with him refraining?

 

[Bronzeage]

Has that defense ever been used successfully?

What do you mean I raped her?

I was drunk, she raped me.

Of course not, as college "sexual assault Gestapo" is a feminist outfit and first law of feminism is "men and women are equal but women are more equal than men".

I have been posting several cases where a female student alleged "rape" because she regretted a hookup where she'd been drinking (and remained highly functional, not passed out or anything close to it) and the guy and only the guy has been inevitably expelled even though he'd been drinking as well. In other words, a disgusting double standard. Either expel both or, very preferably since it wasn't rape, neither.

As to RavenSky's OP, the "bad thing" is that it is a gross overreaction. Yes, people should not seek sex with people who can't consent due to being intoxicated. But there is a big separation between "stone cold sober" and "unable to consent due to alcohol" where booze has for millennia been a sort of social lubricant between the sexes.

The lesson for young men to learn from this is to seek sex where there is less friction and thus less need for social lubricant.

It's time to face facts, the days of easy sex with vulnerable women are over and the days of risk to reputation and freedom are here to stay.

 

[dismal]

So why is this a bad thing?

Feminism is supposed to make it easier to get laid not harder. That's why we invented it.

 

[HaRaAYaH]

So why is this a bad thing?

It's not.

Often considered a social enhancer by students, alcohol now can cast a shadow over sex when there’s any suggestion that it may have dimmed a woman’s judgment. Oscar Sandoval, a senior at Stanford University, near Palo Alto, California, got a text message late one spring evening from a female friend. Did he feel like hanging out? When his friend arrived from a party she was drunk, he said. Her flirting and touching made Sandoval uncomfortable. Something about the situation reminded him of educational sessions he’d had in prior years where he’d learned about sexual consent. Sandoval walked his friend back to her dorm. “Among the people I hang out with, there’s more hesitancy to hook up with someone when there’s alcohol involved,” Sandoval, 21, said. “Something that you might have thought would be okay when you were drunk might not be okay later on. ”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...arvard-stanford-wanes-amid-assault-alarm.html

A man is supposed to act like a gentleman. You might as well get a blow up doll if you are having sex with inebriated partners. Here is real minority opinion around here for which I expect I will be mercilessly flamed. Sex is not an end it's a means. It's means to create intimacy between two human beings. There is nothing more intimate than this, especially for a woman as sex for a man is an external event, not so for a woman. And why in God's name would you want to have sex when your feelings are doused by alcohol? Guys, if you need to get off that bad:

PLUS​

PLUS​

Should take care of you if you need to get off, just to get off .... no need to get someone drunk or take advantage of someone who is drunk just to get your rocks off.... Your hand will never be charged with rape this way...

 

[Under the Rose]

I am a woman and I have no problem in saying that some women send mixed messages, especially when they are drinking. One former female neighbor used to want my company for a girls night out as both of our husbands were frequently out of town with work for extended periods. I had no problem with that as my hubby trusted me to comport myself respectfully but I sure had a problem with the way my friend thought she should go out on the town, completely 'on display'. I refused to accompany her unless she put on clothing that was a bit more suitable so that she wouldn't be too revealing if she decided to play pool as she frequently was given to.

She might as well have had 'Take Me!' stenciled on her forehead, because after a few drinks, she was slutty as hell, quite inappropriate for a woman in a married relationship. On another group socializing occasion, my hubby and a neighbor were concerned that they were going to get into a fight with her admiring entourage when we had to extricate her because 'her ride was leaving now'. Not surprisingly, her marriage did not last.

Some women are nothing but trouble and I can only suggest that men be wary of those who are too forward too soon, especially if there is alcohol or other substances involved. I grow tired of the remarks that 'no woman is asking to be raped and she should be able to dress and act any way she wants to.'

Bullshit. Some broads are and always will be bitches. They do not deserve to be raped but their conduct should not be above comment or censure.

Gentlemen, be warned and govern yourselves accordingly.

 

[arkirk]

I can't see the downside.

There are a few pieces of cliche advice which are intended to irritate. "If you have to ask, you can't afford it," is one. "If you have to ask, you'll never understand it," is another. The "How can I avoid being charged with rape?" question deserves just such an answer.

Sometimes asking just isn't enough. Drunken women don't particularly sex me. I don't need to ask. I'm not interested in a sloppy drunk screw. I feel that this should be the case with most rational men. I'm not saying absolutely no alcohol, just absolutely no drunken screwing. It should not be hard to discern when sex is right and not rape. It helps a lot if you are not sloppy drunk yourself.

 

[bigfield]

The lesson for young men to learn from this is to seek sex where there is less friction and thus less need for social lubricant.

There is always friction when it comes to young adults and casual, no-strings-attached sex. They are insecure and socially clumsy.

It's easy to criticise teens for lacking the know-how required for a satisfying life of casual sex. How should schools impart that know-how on to hgih-schools students so that they can eschew the hookup culture when they get to college?

Here is real minority opinion around here for which I expect I will be mercilessly flamed. Sex is not an end it's a means. It's means to create intimacy between two human beings. There is nothing more intimate than this, especially for a woman as sex for a man is an external event, not so for a woman.

All of the women in the world who enjoy casual, no-strings-attached sex are evidence that you are wrong.

 

[arkirk]

Bigfield: I know a number of women who are nymphomaniacs who incessantly have almost unending sex. I also know their life stories. I have a lot of sympathy for these women because they are so jaded by bad upbringing they essentially have their feelings turned inside out. They have no sense of intimacy such as HaRaAYaH suggests. They are to a person, psychologically injured people living in the moment with passion this moment, the next...disappointment. Every one of them is unhappy and locked in a life of prostitution. It is sad when they become a little older, because they keep on trying to be exciting. It just doesn't appear to work for them and none of them I know has any financial security. Their lives are precarious. It comes from abuse in childhood I feel. I am not an expert, but it looks that way to me.

 

[EricK]

Some types of action are always or nearly always bad; some are always or nearly always good. For the sake of clarity, here, when I say an action is good, I mean it is good for at least one of the participants and good or neutral for the rest; and it is bad if it is bad for at least one of the participants. However, some types of action are sometimes good and sometimes bad. Drunken, casual sex probably falls into this third category.

It is a fine and noble thing to want to prevent bad things from happening, and it is also a fine and noble thing to want good things to happen. However what about the case where preventing bad things from happening also prevents some good things from happening? Or conversely where enabling some good things to happen also increases the amount of bad things? Very few things are so bad that no amount of good can compensate. And similarly few things are so good, that they are worth allowing no matter the other consequences.

So the question is, does the fun and other good things that occurs because of some instances of drunken casual sex outweigh the regret and other bad things that arises from others? If it does, then by eliminating drunken casual sex you would overall, be making the world a worse place. if it does not, then overall you would be doing a good thing.

It might be that the answer depends on the exact circumstances. eg the OP implies a scenario of a drunken woman asking a sober man for sex. And it might be the case that in this type of scenario, the good outweighs the bad, whereas in the case of a sober man asking a drunk woman, the bad outweighs the good. If that were the case (and I have no idea if it is or not), then it is a good thing to encourage men not to hit on drunk women; but it would not be right for those men to assume that it is also wrong to rebuff drunk women who hit on them.

 

[bigfield]

Bigfield: I know a number of women who are nymphomaniacs who incessantly have almost unending sex. I also know their life stories. I have a lot of sympathy for these women because they are so jaded by bad upbringing they essentially have their feelings turned inside out. They have no sense of intimacy such as HaRaAYaH suggests. They are to a person, psychologically injured people living in the moment with passion this moment, the next...disappointment. Every one of them is unhappy and locked in a life of prostitution. It is sad when they become a little older, because they keep on trying to be exciting. It just doesn't appear to work for them and none of them I know has any financial security. Their lives are precarious. It comes from abuse in childhood I feel. I am not an expert, but it looks that way to me.

Are you suggesting, based on your small sample size, that all or most women who enjoy lots of casual sex are emotionally stunted by a bad upbringing?

 

[laughing dog]

To answer the OP: Getting people to think more seriously about the possible consequences of a casual sexual liaison is a good thing.

 

[Bronzeage]

So why is this a bad thing?

Feminism is supposed to make it easier to get laid not harder. That's why we invented it.

Feminism makes getting laid infinitely easier. There was a time when a woman's question was "Will you still love me tomorrow?" This became, "Will I enjoy this tonight?" It's a lot easier to get a woman to agree to sex when she doesn't have to consult her parents, friends and dead relatives, before deciding if you are suitable husband material. She doesn't have to create elaborate love fantasies about a common future, in order to make sexual intimacy fit into a narrow moral code.

We didn't invent feminism to make it easier to have sex. That's just a happy by-product.

There is always friction when it comes to young adults and casual, no-strings-attached sex. They are insecure and socially clumsy.

It's easy to criticise teens for lacking the know-how required for a satisfying life of casual sex. How should schools impart that know-how on to hgih-schools students so that they can eschew the hookup culture when they get to college?

Here is real minority opinion around here for which I expect I will be mercilessly flamed. Sex is not an end it's a means. It's means to create intimacy between two human beings. There is nothing more intimate than this, especially for a woman as sex for a man is an external event, not so for a woman.

All of the women in the world who enjoy casual, no-strings-attached sex are evidence that you are wrong.

Of all the things necessary to make human life pleasant, casual sex is very low on the list. There is no reason for it to be easy. Even in the best circumstances, there are serious issues which must be addressed. We use alcohol to enhance social encounters, but when it becomes a necessity, something is wrong. When I was a teen, drunk girls made me uneasy. They were like all drunks, unpredictable and unreliable. Years later, as a 30-something bachelor, drunk women produced the same effect. Sex has different importance for different people. It's always been like that. For women, there has always been a greater risk of adverse consequences. This does not dampen their natural human desires, just their behavior. Perception of risk is a very subjective thing. It is a good thing for all of us, if the actual risk of sex for women is reduced, and the perception of the risk of sex for men is increased. It will bring things into better balance.

 

[bigfield]

There is always friction when it comes to young adults and casual, no-strings-attached sex. They are insecure and socially clumsy.

It's easy to criticise teens for lacking the know-how required for a satisfying life of casual sex. How should schools impart that know-how on to hgih-schools students so that they can eschew the hookup culture when they get to college?

Here is real minority opinion around here for which I expect I will be mercilessly flamed. Sex is not an end it's a means. It's means to create intimacy between two human beings. There is nothing more intimate than this, especially for a woman as sex for a man is an external event, not so for a woman.

All of the women in the world who enjoy casual, no-strings-attached sex are evidence that you are wrong.

Of all the things necessary to make human life pleasant, casual sex is very low on the list.

As you say below, "sex has different importance for different people". For someone who has gone from one monogamous relationship to another, casual sex would seem irrelevant to a satisfying lifestyle, but to others it is the preferred way to lead their sex lives.

There is no reason for it to be easy.

On the contrary: there is no reason for it to be as difficult as it is.

Even in the best circumstances, there are serious issues which must be addressed.

That's why people ought to screen potential partners.

We use alcohol to enhance social encounters, but when it becomes a necessity, something is wrong. When I was a teen, drunk girls made me uneasy. They were like all drunks, unpredictable and unreliable. Years later, as a 30-something bachelor, drunk women produced the same effect.

All the more reason to convince teens not to get blotto when they are at parties and bars.

Sex has different importance for different people. It's always been like that. For women, there has always been a greater risk of adverse consequences. This does not dampen their natural human desires, just their behavior. Perception of risk is a very subjective thing. It is a good thing for all of us, if the actual risk of sex for women is reduced, and the perception of the risk of sex for men is increased. It will bring things into better balance.

All the more reason to get teens communicating about and participating in sex on a more mature level, so that the only risks they have to deal with are biological.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If we could eradicate the stripper and hooker taboo.... I wonder if fewer rapes would happen. I bet that would be the case.