¡Socalism Success in Venezuela!

[ZiprHead]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

The 2008 crash, the biggest in a long time, isn't even in the same league with what has happened to Venezuela.

And note that the root cause of the 2008 crash was not capitalism, but rather the federal guarantee of very low quality mortgages. The government declared trash to be good stuff, as one would expect a big game of sell-trash-to-the-government developed. Eventually the mess collapsed.

Note that most of the people hurt were players in the game. Those of us who weren't trying to ride the wave up rarely lost our houses.

You've been shown what you said above is BS numerous times yet here again you trot it out.

 

[dismal]

P=MV/Q

(Where P=Price level; M=Money supply; V=Velocity of money; and Q=GDP)

If V is high enough, and Q is low, and/or rapidly falling (as is the case in Venezuela), then nothing you do to M will make much impact.

Well, let's assume your identity holds and attempt to practice a little critical thinking. Some of the available facts:

1) P is increasing rapidly. By some reports inflation is up to 1,000,000%

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/27/ven...icted-to-hit-1-million-percent-this-year.html

2) No one is suggesting GDP is declining by 1,000,000% per year. This article suggests it is down about 35% since 2013:

https://www.businessinsider.com/statistics-about-venezuelas-economic-collapse-2017-8

3) It is pretty unlikely that the velocity of money is increasing as most reports suggest that there isn't much to buy. There are long lines to buy even the basic things like food. Bolivars have so little practical value there are reports thieves don't even bother to steal them. People are converting them into artwork.

https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/venezuela-a-life-waiting-in-line/7/
https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/27/news/economy/venezuela-food-shortage/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/...ant-bolivars-but-no-one-can-spare-a-dime.html
https://www.dw.com/en/venezuelas-worthless-currency-turns-into-bags-of-money/a-43833213

4) the government recently lopped 5 zeros off the notes. This is the second major currency revaluation in the Chavez era. In the first one 3 zeroes were lopped off. A 500 bolivar note today is the equivalent of 50,000,000,000 bolivars of the currency in place when Chavez took power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_bolívar

So, what could possibly be causing the 1,000,000% inflation? It's just so hard to tell, right?

It seems reasonable to conclude people are spending money 1,000,000% faster while they're waiting in line at shops with no goods to buy.

 

[SimpleDon]

My problem with these recurring let's bash Venezuela's socialism threads is that there is nothing in them except the anticipation that we should viscerally react to the evil in socialism without any analysis of the problems that plague Venezuela, much less even a hint at a solution.

I suppose that we are to assume that the solution to socialism is capitalism. But capitalism also failed in Venezuela, because it was an oligarchy with a very few becoming extremely wealthy while leaving a large part of the population in poverty. Chavez was elected as a reaction to the oligarchy and its far-right brand of government helped in no small part by the revelation that the US was interfering in the election in support of the oligarchy.

What should they do to avoid swinging between the two extremes?

Quit pretending that the capitalism was a problem in the first place. Venezuela's problem was it's government--oligarchy. Don't blame capitalism for failings caused by it not being allowed to function.

You are correct, it is a problem with the government, in both cases, capitalism and socialism. I am a champion of capitalism over socialism, they have a better chance with capitalism. But it is easy to see that it isn't a guarantee that capitalism is better, for them either. There is little to see of an advantage that the oligarchical capitalism had over the current socialism for the citizens of Venezuela. Both had the same problem, the price of oil dropping. Both had capital flight, loss in the value of the currency, people going hungry, riots in the street, and threats that the military would take over.

To be clear, I wasn't pretending that it wasn't the government. But neither was I pretending to believe in your fantasy that there can be a capitalistic economy that is separate from the government. That, by some magic you can't explain, the economy would somehow self-organize and police itself to prevent bad behavior in the government no longer tried to organize and to police the economy as they do now. I am sorry, but this is delusional.

And when I explain the best (and only) theories that support the concept of the self-regulating free market and the theories behind mutually beneficial free trade I am accused of building a strawman so obviously ridiculous that anybody can see that they can't be true. It isn't me, the theories of marginal productivity and comparative advantage are ridiculous.

Your thinking that government causes most of the problems in an otherwise perfect system so we should remove government from the economy is the same type of thinking that the Venezuelans used to decide that the problem with the oligarchy and its crony capitalism was with capitalism, not with the oligarchy. Both are "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" thought processes.

There is no inherent mechanism in capitalism that determines the income distribution, who gets how much. We don't have a free market for labor or capital were the economy reasonably determines the greatest degree of social justice by dividing the income from the economy according to any identifiable norm of even-handed fairness. It shouldn't surprise you capitalism is biased toward the owners and the rentiers, the bankers, the financial sector, even while the industrial revolution has diminished the importance of both labor and capital and is now much more dependent on management, something that didn't even exist for the classical economists.

Your problems with me and what I post about the economy have always boiled down to this; I am telling you how the economy that we have worked and you come back with how you wish that it would work.

And you didn't answer my question of how do the Venezuelans keep from swinging between the two extremes?

 

[SimpleDon]

I read Jarhyn's post as not a defense of Maduro but an observation that we see these bash Venezuela's socialism threads when a particular segment of our discussion board tires of defending the indefensible.

For my part, the Supreme Court nomination debate is a purely partisan one without any hint of rationally on either side, so there isn't much that I can add to it. So I am staying away from it.

My problem with these recurring let's bash Venezuela's socialism threads is that there is nothing in them except the anticipation that we should viscerally react to the evil in socialism without any analysis of the problems that plague Venezuela, much less even a hint at a solution.

I suppose that we are to assume that the solution to socialism is capitalism. But capitalism also failed in Venezuela, because it was an oligarchy with a very few becoming extremely wealthy while leaving a large part of the population in poverty. Chavez was elected as a reaction to the oligarchy and its far-right brand of government helped in no small part by the revelation that the US was interfering in the election in support of the oligarchy.

What should they do to avoid swinging between the two extremes?

Should Venezuela follow the example of the US and support the oligarchy by convincing a bare majority of the voters that oligarchy and its income inequality are good and that the poor are responsible for their poverty?

Is the solution to Venezuela's problems its own Fox News and support for the oligarchy from the US interfering in Venezuela's elections yet again?

False. The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

When a government is actively fucking everything up, doing nothing helps tremendously. When your problem is hyperinflation because you are printing money out the wazoo, the solution is stop printing money out the wazoo. When the problem is dislocations in market prices because you're fixing prices at non-market levels, the solution is stop fixing prices at non market levels. When the problem is businesses not producing because of fear of nationalization, the solution is stop threatening and carrying out nationalizations. When the problem is foreign investment fleeing the country due to fear of expropriation, the solution is stop expropriating foreign business. When the problem is businesses shedding workers due to 3000% increases in minimum wage, the solution is stop dictating 3000% increases in minimum wage. When the problem is inability to import due to unrealistic foreign currency exchange rates dictated by government, the solution is stop dictating unrealistic foreign exchange rates. Etc, etc.

This government is reaping exactly the consequences an economics textbook tells you to expect when they implement the policies they have implemented. The solution is to stop, not double down.

You are correct, these are the problems with the current socialist government. Except you left out a solution for their biggest problem, what do you do if you have an economy dependent on a single export, oil, an export that funds needed and unneeded imports when that commodity drops in price by a half?

I seriously doubt that your solution of doing nothing will help with this problem. And it is a problem that bought on the others or made them much worse.

You get the prize for the longest non-answer to a rhetorical question. {a reminder, a rhetorical question is a question asked not to get an answer but to make a point} And you also win a belaboring the obvious prize. Yes, socialism is a shit economic system.

Of course, the answer to Venezuela's problems isn't to return to the right-wing, crony capitalist oligarchy, even if they do crank up a propaganda machine like Fox News to convince people that down is up and the oligarchy and its income inequality is in everyone's best interests even though it isn't.

And it just as obviously the answer isn't socialism, either.

Now direct your attention to the problems created by the right-wing oligarchy that preceded the current inept socialist government. That is the reason Venezuela swung so far to the left, a reaction to the oligarchy's inability to solve the problem of a drop in the price of their single export. Whose answer to the problem was to let people starve and to use the police and the military to put down the riots.

What is your solution to the problems of oligarchical government and its economy? Doing nothing?

 

[Jarhyn]

I read Jarhyn's post as not a defense of Maduro but an observation that we see these bash Venezuela's socialism threads when a particular segment of our discussion board tires of defending the indefensible.

For my part, the Supreme Court nomination debate is a purely partisan one without any hint of rationally on either side, so there isn't much that I can add to it. So I am staying away from it.

My problem with these recurring let's bash Venezuela's socialism threads is that there is nothing in them except the anticipation that we should viscerally react to the evil in socialism without any analysis of the problems that plague Venezuela, much less even a hint at a solution.

I suppose that we are to assume that the solution to socialism is capitalism. But capitalism also failed in Venezuela, because it was an oligarchy with a very few becoming extremely wealthy while leaving a large part of the population in poverty. Chavez was elected as a reaction to the oligarchy and its far-right brand of government helped in no small part by the revelation that the US was interfering in the election in support of the oligarchy.

What should they do to avoid swinging between the two extremes?

Should Venezuela follow the example of the US and support the oligarchy by convincing a bare majority of the voters that oligarchy and its income inequality are good and that the poor are responsible for their poverty?

Is the solution to Venezuela's problems its own Fox News and support for the oligarchy from the US interfering in Venezuela's elections yet again?

False. The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

When a government is actively fucking everything up, doing nothing helps tremendously. When your problem is hyperinflation because you are printing money out the wazoo, the solution is stop printing money out the wazoo. When the problem is dislocations in market prices because you're fixing prices at non-market levels, the solution is stop fixing prices at non market levels. When the problem is businesses not producing because of fear of nationalization, the solution is stop threatening and carrying out nationalizations. When the problem is foreign investment fleeing the country due to fear of expropriation, the solution is stop expropriating foreign business. When the problem is businesses shedding workers due to 3000% increases in minimum wage, the solution is stop dictating 3000% increases in minimum wage. When the problem is inability to import due to unrealistic foreign currency exchange rates dictated by government, the solution is stop dictating unrealistic foreign exchange rates. Etc, etc.

This government is reaping exactly the consequences an economics textbook tells you to expect when they implement the policies they have implemented. The solution is to stop, not double down.

You are correct, these are the problems with the current socialist government. Except you left out a solution for their biggest problem, what do you do if you have an economy dependent on a single export, oil, an export that funds needed and unneeded imports when that commodity drops in price by a half?

I seriously doubt that your solution of doing nothing will help with this problem. And it is a problem that bought on the others or made them much worse.

You get the prize for the longest non-answer to a rhetorical question. {a reminder, a rhetorical question is a question asked not to get an answer but to make a point} And you also win a belaboring the obvious prize. Yes, socialism is a shit economic system.

Of course, the answer to Venezuela's problems isn't to return to the right-wing, crony capitalist oligarchy, even if they do crank up a propaganda machine like Fox News to convince people that down is up and the oligarchy and its income inequality is in everyone's best interests even though it isn't.

And it just as obviously the answer isn't socialism, either.

Now direct your attention to the problems created by the right-wing oligarchy that preceded the current inept socialist government. That is the reason Venezuela swung so far to the left, a reaction to the oligarchy's inability to solve the problem of a drop in the price of their single export. Whose answer to the problem was to let people starve and to use the police and the military to put down the riots.

What is your solution to the problems of oligarchical government and its economy? Doing nothing?

I dunno. I think his position is pretty clear: just be one of the oligarchs, duh. Or barring that, suck enough Oligarch dick that the act of swallowing may sustain you through the famine.

 

[dismal]

I read Jarhyn's post as not a defense of Maduro but an observation that we see these bash Venezuela's socialism threads when a particular segment of our discussion board tires of defending the indefensible.

For my part, the Supreme Court nomination debate is a purely partisan one without any hint of rationally on either side, so there isn't much that I can add to it. So I am staying away from it.

My problem with these recurring let's bash Venezuela's socialism threads is that there is nothing in them except the anticipation that we should viscerally react to the evil in socialism without any analysis of the problems that plague Venezuela, much less even a hint at a solution.

I suppose that we are to assume that the solution to socialism is capitalism. But capitalism also failed in Venezuela, because it was an oligarchy with a very few becoming extremely wealthy while leaving a large part of the population in poverty. Chavez was elected as a reaction to the oligarchy and its far-right brand of government helped in no small part by the revelation that the US was interfering in the election in support of the oligarchy.

What should they do to avoid swinging between the two extremes?

Should Venezuela follow the example of the US and support the oligarchy by convincing a bare majority of the voters that oligarchy and its income inequality are good and that the poor are responsible for their poverty?

Is the solution to Venezuela's problems its own Fox News and support for the oligarchy from the US interfering in Venezuela's elections yet again?

False. The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

When a government is actively fucking everything up, doing nothing helps tremendously. When your problem is hyperinflation because you are printing money out the wazoo, the solution is stop printing money out the wazoo. When the problem is dislocations in market prices because you're fixing prices at non-market levels, the solution is stop fixing prices at non market levels. When the problem is businesses not producing because of fear of nationalization, the solution is stop threatening and carrying out nationalizations. When the problem is foreign investment fleeing the country due to fear of expropriation, the solution is stop expropriating foreign business. When the problem is businesses shedding workers due to 3000% increases in minimum wage, the solution is stop dictating 3000% increases in minimum wage. When the problem is inability to import due to unrealistic foreign currency exchange rates dictated by government, the solution is stop dictating unrealistic foreign exchange rates. Etc, etc.

This government is reaping exactly the consequences an economics textbook tells you to expect when they implement the policies they have implemented. The solution is to stop, not double down.

You are correct, these are the problems with the current socialist government. Except you left out a solution for their biggest problem, what do you do if you have an economy dependent on a single export, oil, an export that funds needed and unneeded imports when that commodity drops in price by a half?

I seriously doubt that your solution of doing nothing will help with this problem. And it is a problem that bought on the others or made them much worse.

You get the prize for the longest non-answer to a rhetorical question. {a reminder, a rhetorical question is a question asked not to get an answer but to make a point} And you also win a belaboring the obvious prize. Yes, socialism is a shit economic system.

Of course, the answer to Venezuela's problems isn't to return to the right-wing, crony capitalist oligarchy, even if they do crank up a propaganda machine like Fox News to convince people that down is up and the oligarchy and its income inequality is in everyone's best interests even though it isn't.

And it just as obviously the answer isn't socialism, either.

Now direct your attention to the problems created by the right-wing oligarchy that preceded the current inept socialist government. That is the reason Venezuela swung so far to the left, a reaction to the oligarchy's inability to solve the problem of a drop in the price of their single export. Whose answer to the problem was to let people starve and to use the police and the military to put down the riots.

What is your solution to the problems of oligarchical government and its economy? Doing nothing?

Tip: oil price is 3.5X higher than it was when Chavez took power.

If you want to rewrite an essay that bears some relation to that reality I may read it.

 

[Jarhyn]

You are correct, these are the problems with the current socialist government. Except you left out a solution for their biggest problem, what do you do if you have an economy dependent on a single export, oil, an export that funds needed and unneeded imports when that commodity drops in price by a half?

I seriously doubt that your solution of doing nothing will help with this problem. And it is a problem that bought on the others or made them much worse.

You get the prize for the longest non-answer to a rhetorical question. {a reminder, a rhetorical question is a question asked not to get an answer but to make a point} And you also win a belaboring the obvious prize. Yes, socialism is a shit economic system.

Of course, the answer to Venezuela's problems isn't to return to the right-wing, crony capitalist oligarchy, even if they do crank up a propaganda machine like Fox News to convince people that down is up and the oligarchy and its income inequality is in everyone's best interests even though it isn't.

And it just as obviously the answer isn't socialism, either.

Now direct your attention to the problems created by the right-wing oligarchy that preceded the current inept socialist government. That is the reason Venezuela swung so far to the left, a reaction to the oligarchy's inability to solve the problem of a drop in the price of their single export. Whose answer to the problem was to let people starve and to use the police and the military to put down the riots.

What is your solution to the problems of oligarchical government and its economy? Doing nothing?

Tip: oil price is 3.5X higher than it was when Chavez took power.

If you want to rewrite an essay that bears some relation to that reality I may read it.

Ah yes, so people can eat, seek shelter with, and drink oil now. Got it.

The reality is, oil provides enough wealth for a few people to be disgustingly rich for no reason, but it isn't enough to make a nation's worth o poor people particularly rich. A large number divided by a large number is a small number. The idiocy that happened there is in part assuming that just because that money made a few rich assholes, they could divide it more ways and make everyone a rich asshole. I mean come on, you need more than that.

Even so, it's a national resource, so it should benefit all in the nation equally. Nobody "deserves" to profit from the wealth of natural resources more than anyone else, so the decision to nationalize the oil wealth WAS correct. Just not the decision to give the money to the people; he should have spent it on education, farm technologies, and developing other resources and infrastructure, using that money to produce JOBS that made more JOBS happen.

Nobody disputes that Venezuela was mismanaged, but the rest of us who actually want to see things get better recognize that crony capitalism was part of what made this problem happen in the first place, and that the problem was not socialism but rather real, describable, and explicit bad acts

 

[dismal]

You are correct, these are the problems with the current socialist government. Except you left out a solution for their biggest problem, what do you do if you have an economy dependent on a single export, oil, an export that funds needed and unneeded imports when that commodity drops in price by a half?

I seriously doubt that your solution of doing nothing will help with this problem. And it is a problem that bought on the others or made them much worse.

You get the prize for the longest non-answer to a rhetorical question. {a reminder, a rhetorical question is a question asked not to get an answer but to make a point} And you also win a belaboring the obvious prize. Yes, socialism is a shit economic system.

Of course, the answer to Venezuela's problems isn't to return to the right-wing, crony capitalist oligarchy, even if they do crank up a propaganda machine like Fox News to convince people that down is up and the oligarchy and its income inequality is in everyone's best interests even though it isn't.

And it just as obviously the answer isn't socialism, either.

Now direct your attention to the problems created by the right-wing oligarchy that preceded the current inept socialist government. That is the reason Venezuela swung so far to the left, a reaction to the oligarchy's inability to solve the problem of a drop in the price of their single export. Whose answer to the problem was to let people starve and to use the police and the military to put down the riots.

What is your solution to the problems of oligarchical government and its economy? Doing nothing?

Tip: oil price is 3.5X higher than it was when Chavez took power.

If you want to rewrite an essay that bears some relation to that reality I may read it.

Ah yes, so people can eat, seek shelter with, and drink oil now. Got it.

The reality is, oil provides enough wealth for a few people to be disgustingly rich for no reason, but it isn't enough to make a nation's worth o poor people particularly rich. A large number divided by a large number is a small number. The idiocy that happened there is in part assuming that just because that money made a few rich assholes, they could divide it more ways and make everyone a rich asshole. I mean come on, you need more than that.

Even so, it's a national resource, so it should benefit all in the nation equally. Nobody "deserves" to profit from the wealth of natural resources more than anyone else, so the decision to nationalize the oil wealth WAS correct. Just not the decision to give the money to the people; he should have spent it on education, farm technologies, and developing other resources and infrastructure, using that money to produce JOBS that made more JOBS happen.

Nobody disputes that Venezuela was mismanaged, but the rest of us who actually want to see things get better recognize that crony capitalism was part of what made this problem happen in the first place, and that the problem was not socialism but rather real, describable, and explicit bad acts

Do you actually read what people say so you can tailor your emotional rants appropriately? I think it would help.

 

[Underseer]

Even if we grant that Venezuela is a stellar example of an implementation of socialism (which is a hell of a stretch), it still lasted a lot longer than every fascist regime to date. Fascist regimes end in literal or economic ruin much, much faster.

 

[dismal]

Even if we grant that Venezuela is a stellar example of an implementation of socialism (which is a hell of a stretch), it still lasted a lot longer than every fascist regime to date. Fascist regimes end in literal or economic ruin much, much faster.

Yes, and when some fascists show up we'll rub that in their face.

 

[untermensche]

Even if we grant that Venezuela is a stellar example of an implementation of socialism (which is a hell of a stretch), it still lasted a lot longer than every fascist regime to date. Fascist regimes end in literal or economic ruin much, much faster.

Yes, and when some fascists show up we'll rub that in their face.

Fascism is when the government and corporations combine.

It is the government supporting big business at the expense of everyone else.

It is a totally unneeded attack of Iraq to feed the military industrial complex so much it pukes.

It is all that shoddy construction in the green zone that was just abandoned.

It is the endless war Orwell told us about.

We are the midst of fascism.

With a con-man businessman as president trying to put other fascists on the Court.

 

[Trausti]

Fascism is when the government and corporations combine.

Like, for example, the Obamacare individual mandate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

The 2008 crash, the biggest in a long time, isn't even in the same league with what has happened to Venezuela.

And note that the root cause of the 2008 crash was not capitalism, but rather the federal guarantee of very low quality mortgages. The government declared trash to be good stuff, as one would expect a big game of sell-trash-to-the-government developed. Eventually the mess collapsed.

Note that most of the people hurt were players in the game. Those of us who weren't trying to ride the wave up rarely lost our houses.

You've been shown what you said above is BS numerous times yet here again you trot it out.

You've claimed to show it's BS but have not done so.

2008 was scumbags taking advantage of the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying trash as if it was grade A.

 

[untermensche]

Fascism is when the government and corporations combine.

Like, for example, the Obamacare individual mandate.

Sure.

The system is a fascist system.

Instead of decent healthcare provided through a government run non-profit program, because of American fascism, the sick grip corporations have on the government, we get Obamacare.

A Republican program that suddenly because the worst program to exist when Obama got it enacted.

In fascism you have a lot of petty politics like that.

 

[untermensche]

2008 was scumbags taking advantage of the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying trash as if it was grade A.

Total BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Total IGNORANCE!!!!

That was a tiny part of the problem. A minuscule part of the problem.

The problem was huge corporate banks ran amok. They could do this because they are all dictatorships. It only takes the greed and scheming of a few dictators to do it.

They just stopped verifying information on loans.

Nobody told them to do it.

It was insanity to do it.

It cause a massive bubble. Real Estate prices rose irrationally because there was no rational process to give loans anymore.

That combined with the fraudulent secondary products derived from the loans and insurance policies on those derivatives cause a massive collapse when enough people who's information was never checked failed to pay.

The people that did it knew it would cause a collapse some day.

And they all got very rich and skated away free as birds.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

2008 was scumbags taking advantage of the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying trash as if it was grade A.

Total BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Total IGNORANCE!!!!

That was a tiny part of the problem. A minuscule part of the problem.

The problem was huge corporate banks ran amok. They could do this because they are all dictatorships. It only takes the greed and scheming of a few dictators to do it.

They just stopped verifying information on loans.

Nobody told them to do it.

It was insanity to do it.

It cause a massive bubble. Real Estate prices rose irrationally because there was no rational process to give loans anymore.

That combined with the fraudulent secondary products derived from the loans and insurance policies on those derivatives cause a massive collapse when enough people who's information was never checked failed to pay.

The people that did it knew it would cause a collapse some day.

And they all got very rich and skated away free as birds.

Anything to pretend your beloved oppressor wasn't responsible.

True, nobody told the big banks to quit checking documentation. The government offered to buy the mortgages without the documentation, that was enough to cause the problem.

 

[untermensche]

2008 was scumbags taking advantage of the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying trash as if it was grade A.

Total BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Total IGNORANCE!!!!

That was a tiny part of the problem. A minuscule part of the problem.

The problem was huge corporate banks ran amok. They could do this because they are all dictatorships. It only takes the greed and scheming of a few dictators to do it.

They just stopped verifying information on loans.

Nobody told them to do it.

It was insanity to do it.

It cause a massive bubble. Real Estate prices rose irrationally because there was no rational process to give loans anymore.

That combined with the fraudulent secondary products derived from the loans and insurance policies on those derivatives cause a massive collapse when enough people who's information was never checked failed to pay.

The people that did it knew it would cause a collapse some day.

And they all got very rich and skated away free as birds.

Anything to pretend your beloved oppressor wasn't responsible.

True, nobody told the big banks to quit checking documentation. The government offered to buy the mortgages without the documentation, that was enough to cause the problem.

The problem was the greed and dictatorial power of corporate leaders.

They abandoned sound banking policies knowing what would happen. They knew a bubble would grow and they could escape rich while millions suffered.

Some of the most evil people in history working in an evil system.

That was the root of the whole problem.

Those roots still exist.

A smothering vine can grow as soon as the dictators find their next evil scheme.

 

[RVonse]

2008 was scumbags taking advantage of the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were buying trash as if it was grade A.

It also required (and still has not been fixed yet):

1. Lack of rule of law - Bank monopoly. No banksters went to jail and should have.
2. The FED - FED causing miss allocations of interest rate and capital. Some say $3/gal spike was caused by government manipulation as well.
3. Fiat money not based with gold, only tied loosely to oil. US government in huge deficit then as now.

The US due for another similar style crash. It is just a matter of time.

 

[Trausti]

 

[untermensche]

Do you know how many starving kids there are in capitalist Haiti?

In capitalist Guatemala and Mexico?

Capitalism is a system that is very good for some and very bad for many.

It is not close to utopia or perfection.

It is a shitty immoral system that breaks down constantly.

Capitalists have nothing to crow about. The immoral distribution of wealth is nothing to crow about.

If anybody is well off in capitalism it is sheer chance and has very little to do with ability. Mostly due to the parents one has and the location one grows up in.

Total lying scumbags that want to steal from others do very well in capitalism and they are seen all over thriving in capitalism. The president is the poster boy for American capitalism. The face of American capitalism. American capitalism in human form.

Capitalism is a system that rewards the worst traits in humanity and harms the best.

Good things happen in spite of the inequities and lack of opportunity for many in capitalism. They happen mainly because of anti-capitalist activity.