¡Socalism Success in Venezuela!

[dismal]

The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

Wow. You've just solved all of Venezuela's problems. Hopefully someone in Caracas is reading this and sees your undeniable wisdom. They'll then run to the Presidential Palace and somehow get a meeting with Maduro, and explain "you see, Mr. President, we need to stop fucking things up."

Then Maduro - as if struck by lightning - will suddenly realize "wow...we need to stop fucking things up."

Within short order, the government will issue a statement. "As of this moment, we're going to stop fucking things up." For a time, the people of Venezuela will be confused. What specifics are there? What's the plan? We've got so many problems there must be more to it than that.

Then the person who read your advice will say "I saw it on an internet forum, so it's obviously written by someone who has a deep knowledge of our history, our economy, and a full grasp of everything wrong, and when he says 'stop fucking things up' that's all the advice we need."

The people will rally behind your words, and six or eight months from now Venezuela's problems will all be fixed because it was so easy and they just didn't realize it until you told them.


How many other countries will you rescue from disaster with such wise words? When Venezuela is fixed, will you please go to Somalia and straighten them out as well?

Thanks, in advance.

Maduro's headed for a lamppost exit, most likely. It's just a question of how bad a shambles and how many millions dead or in misery he will leave behind.

You and the other apologists just help that number get bigger. Congrats!

 

[Ford]

The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

Wow. You've just solved all of Venezuela's problems. Hopefully someone in Caracas is reading this and sees your undeniable wisdom. They'll then run to the Presidential Palace and somehow get a meeting with Maduro, and explain "you see, Mr. President, we need to stop fucking things up."

Then Maduro - as if struck by lightning - will suddenly realize "wow...we need to stop fucking things up."

Within short order, the government will issue a statement. "As of this moment, we're going to stop fucking things up." For a time, the people of Venezuela will be confused. What specifics are there? What's the plan? We've got so many problems there must be more to it than that.

Then the person who read your advice will say "I saw it on an internet forum, so it's obviously written by someone who has a deep knowledge of our history, our economy, and a full grasp of everything wrong, and when he says 'stop fucking things up' that's all the advice we need."

The people will rally behind your words, and six or eight months from now Venezuela's problems will all be fixed because it was so easy and they just didn't realize it until you told them.


How many other countries will you rescue from disaster with such wise words? When Venezuela is fixed, will you please go to Somalia and straighten them out as well?

Thanks, in advance.

Maduro's headed for a lamppost exit, most likely. It's just a question of how bad a shambles and how many millions dead or in misery he will leave behind.

You and the other apologists just help that number get bigger. Congrats!

But you could save all those lives with your brilliant solution! Why not go down there and implement your "stop fucking things up" plan? You would be a hero and probably win some sort of peace prize. Maybe eve get rich too by your stellar business acumen.

Drop us a line when you arrive in Caracas to cheering crowds, okay?

 

[dismal]

Maduro's headed for a lamppost exit, most likely. It's just a question of how bad a shambles and how many millions dead or in misery he will leave behind.

You and the other apologists just help that number get bigger. Congrats!

But you could save all those lives with your brilliant solution! Why not go down there and implement your "stop fucking things up" plan? You would be a hero and probably win some sort of peace prize. Maybe eve get rich too by your stellar business acumen.

Drop us a line when you arrive in Caracas to cheering crowds, okay?

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron. And thus you sound like one.

At least you just stink up an Internet forum instead of destroying a country.

 

[ZiprHead]

Maduro's headed for a lamppost exit, most likely. It's just a question of how bad a shambles and how many millions dead or in misery he will leave behind.

You and the other apologists just help that number get bigger. Congrats!

But you could save all those lives with your brilliant solution! Why not go down there and implement your "stop fucking things up" plan? You would be a hero and probably win some sort of peace prize. Maybe eve get rich too by your stellar business acumen.

Drop us a line when you arrive in Caracas to cheering crowds, okay?

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron. And thus you sound like one.

At least you just stink up an Internet forum instead of destroying a country.

Poor dismal. Bless his heart.

 

[bilby]

I read Jarhyn's post as not a defense of Maduro but an observation that we see these bash Venezuela's socialism threads when a particular segment of our discussion board tires of defending the indefensible.

For my part, the Supreme Court nomination debate is a purely partisan one without any hint of rationally on either side, so there isn't much that I can add to it. So I am staying away from it.

My problem with these recurring let's bash Venezuela's socialism threads is that there is nothing in them except the anticipation that we should viscerally react to the evil in socialism without any analysis of the problems that plague Venezuela, much less even a hint at a solution.

I suppose that we are to assume that the solution to socialism is capitalism. But capitalism also failed in Venezuela, because it was an oligarchy with a very few becoming extremely wealthy while leaving a large part of the population in poverty. Chavez was elected as a reaction to the oligarchy and its far-right brand of government helped in no small part by the revelation that the US was interfering in the election in support of the oligarchy.

What should they do to avoid swinging between the two extremes?

Should Venezuela follow the example of the US and support the oligarchy by convincing a bare majority of the voters that oligarchy and its income inequality are good and that the poor are responsible for their poverty?

Is the solution to Venezuela's problems its own Fox News and support for the oligarchy from the US interfering in Venezuela's elections yet again?

False. The solution to Venezuela's problems is easy: stop fucking things up.

When a government is actively fucking everything up, doing nothing helps tremendously. When your problem is hyperinflation because you are printing money out the wazoo, the solution is stop printing money out the wazoo. When the problem is dislocations in market prices because you're fixing prices at non-market levels, the solution is stop fixing prices at non market levels. When the problem is businesses not producing because of fear of nationalization, the solution is stop threatening and carrying out nationalizations. When the problem is foreign investment fleeing the country due to fear of expropriation, the solution is stop expropriating foreign business. When the problem is businesses shedding workers due to 3000% increases in minimum wage, the solution is stop dictating 3000% increases in minimum wage. When the problem is inability to import due to unrealistic foreign currency exchange rates dictated by government, the solution is stop dictating unrealistic foreign exchange rates. Etc, etc.

This government is reaping exactly the consequences an economics textbook tells you to expect when they implement the policies they have implemented. The solution is to stop, not double down.

You cannot end hyperinflation by stopping printing money. Once the public expectation is of high inflation, the velocity of money goes through the roof, and no amount of restrictions on money supply will prevent inflation; If you don't print bills of sufficiently large denomination, people will either use huge numbers of smaller bills, or (if you don't even print small bills, or these become scarce) will exchange promissory notes of their own making - personal cheques and the like, or in the modern world, will use electronic transactions.

Once people realize that any money they have must be spent immediately before it loses value, hyper-inflation is self sustaining. Indeed, if GDP falls sharply, hyper-inflation can occur without any prior increase in money supply at all - as happened in Zimbabwe with the collapse of farm output (which was the largest sector of the economy) and in Post WWI Germany, where a large fraction of GDP was exported in the form of reparations, for zero return (essentially the German economy was working for the benefit of other nations and not for Germany herself).

Floating the exchange rate would worsen the inflationary situation, as money became even less valuable and getting it off you hands as fast as possible became even more desirable.

P=MV/Q

(Where P=Price level; M=Money supply; V=Velocity of money; and Q=GDP)

If V is high enough, and Q is low, and/or rapidly falling (as is the case in Venezuela), then nothing you do to M will make much impact.

The only options are to either lower V, (by restoring public confidence in the money - so that they are prepared to risk holding on to it, rather than spending it right away); Or to massively boost Q (I have no idea how you could achieve this from a hyper-inflationary starting point); Or to abandon the currency in favour of either a foreign currency; or a new local currency in which people have more confidence. Zimbabwe abandoned the Z$ in favour of the US$ and the SA Rand; Post WWI Germany abandoned the Mark for the new 'Rentenmark', which later became the basis of the Reichsmark, at a nominal value of one trillion old marks.

I am not aware of any country that has successfully halted hyperinflation without changing to a new currency base in which people can have confidence, and abandoning the old currency altogether.

 

[Axulus]

If V is high enough, and Q is low, and/or rapidly falling (as is the case in Venezuela), then nothing you do to M will make much impact.

That does not follow from your equation. V has an upper limit (there is only so fast people can immediately spend the money, and Venezuela is likely near that limit). Q is also dropping about 6-15% annually in Venezuela and thus only has limited impact on overall P in a given year. M will thus have the biggest remaining impact on the price level. Holding M constant will slow down price growth, which will also begin to restore some confidence, and thus will likely lead to an eventual slowdown in a V that is already near the upper limit.

But you are right in that other solutions would be more effective. Either ditching the currency for a stable one or implementing a currency board are the two best solutions.

 

[Ford]

Maduro's headed for a lamppost exit, most likely. It's just a question of how bad a shambles and how many millions dead or in misery he will leave behind.

You and the other apologists just help that number get bigger. Congrats!

But you could save all those lives with your brilliant solution! Why not go down there and implement your "stop fucking things up" plan? You would be a hero and probably win some sort of peace prize. Maybe eve get rich too by your stellar business acumen.

Drop us a line when you arrive in Caracas to cheering crowds, okay?

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron.

I'm not defending anything. I'm mocking someone who thinks "stop fucking things up" is a comprehensive solution.

 

[Axulus]

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron.

I'm not defending anything. I'm mocking someone who thinks "stop fucking things up" is a comprehensive solution.

The solutions proposed are necessary to get on a path to economic recovery but threaten the power of the dictator, so they will not occur until he is deposed.

 

[ZiprHead]

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron.

I'm not defending anything. I'm mocking someone who thinks "stop fucking things up" is a comprehensive solution.

The solutions proposed are necessary to get on a path to economic recovery but threaten the power of the dictator, so they will not occur until he is deposed.

I agree. Stop fucking things up is a comprehensive, all encompassing, well thought-out, and immediate solution.

Dismal, can I come to your Nobel reception after party? I hear those are off the hook.

 

[Elixir]

The solutions proposed are necessary to get on a path to economic recovery but threaten the power of the dictator, so they will not occur until he is deposed.

I agree. Stop fucking things up is a comprehensive, all encompassing, well thought-out, and immediate solution.

Dismal, can I come to your Nobel reception after party? I hear those are off the hook.

Please, all those who oppose "stop fucking things up" please line up in the corner opposite dismal's.

 

[dismal]

Do you actually think you sound intelligent? You’re defending a totalitarian economic moron.

I'm not defending anything. I'm mocking someone who thinks "stop fucking things up" is a comprehensive solution.

How is "stoop fucking things up" not a solution? Do you think people haven't cured hyperinflation before by not printing gobs of money? It works every time it's tried. Can you cite some times when price controls were lifted and shortages remained? When nationalizations and appropriations stopped and the investment climate did not improve?

Sure, some of the damage caused by Chavez/Maduro's economic idiocy would take some time to heal but better the healing starts than you keep inflicting more damage.

Seriously, are you actually arguing that they shouldn't stop inflicting economic destruction on the country because healing from all the destruction they have previously wreaked will take time? What sort of fucked up argument is that? Are you so inhuman that you do not care about the millions of people suffering under these idiots?

 

[dismal]

The solutions proposed are necessary to get on a path to economic recovery but threaten the power of the dictator, so they will not occur until he is deposed.

I agree. Stop fucking things up is a comprehensive, all encompassing, well thought-out, and immediate solution.

Dismal, can I come to your Nobel reception after party? I hear those are off the hook.

Yeah, they don't give out Nobel prizes for paying attention in Econ 101. This is pretty basic stuff.

But I'm sure Maduro appreciates your support.

Hopefully you'll get to meet some of the millions of Venezuela refugees out there and explain how great Maduro's policies are in person.

 

[dismal]

The solutions proposed are necessary to get on a path to economic recovery but threaten the power of the dictator, so they will not occur until he is deposed.

I agree. Stop fucking things up is a comprehensive, all encompassing, well thought-out, and immediate solution.

Dismal, can I come to your Nobel reception after party? I hear those are off the hook.

Please, all those who oppose "stop fucking things up" please line up in the corner opposite dismal's.

I have been specific, you know. I haven't noticed any actual arguments against anything I said needs to be done.

 

[Ford]

Seriously, are you actually arguing that they shouldn't stop inflicting economic destruction on the country because healing from all the destruction they have previously wreaked will take time? What sort of fucked up argument is that? Are you so inhuman that you do not care about the millions of people suffering under these idiots?

No. Again, I'm mocking you for your laughable assertion that "stop fucking things up" is an easy, comprehensive solution.

 

[untermensche]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

 

[Axulus]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

In a capitalist system people occasionally lose their homes (usually in which they had a massive loan on and likely little to no equity) and occasionally their jobs. In Venezuelan style socialism or in Marxist systems people lose massive weight and children get seriously malnourished from lack of food, where over half the population is in dire poverty, for years on end (no substantial recovery), from which millions of people flee to other countries. Where the government is strong authoritarian and basic freedoms of the press and of free speech are curtailed, among others. Hmmm, for some reason I can't decide which is better.

 

[untermensche]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

In a capitalist system people occasionally lose their homes (usually in which they had a massive loan on and likely little to no equity) and occasionally their jobs. In Venezuelan style socialism or in Marxist systems people lose massive weight and children get seriously malnourished from lack of food, where over half the population is in dire poverty, for years on end (no substantial recovery), from which millions of people flee to other countries. Where the government is strong authoritarian and basic freedoms of the press and of free speech are curtailed, among others. Hmmm, for some reason I can't decide which is better.

People are homeless and hungry all over the US.

One massive failure after another where millions are harmed badly is nothing to brag about.

The capitalists have a sputtering piece of shit that needs constant and massive support from the government and constantly breaks down.

Those that commit the greatest crimes, cause the greatest harm, do the greatest damage fly away on a magic carpet made of gold in capitalism.

While millions suffer and scramble to pay for it.

It is not a system fit for humans.

It is a deliberate and insane return to the jungle. A system fit for a vulture.

Trump is the poster-boy for American capitalism.

The system embodied in human form.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Since these capitalists know so much how come the capitalist systems constantly crash?

The US system had a massive crash only ten years ago.

Millions of people lost their homes and savings.

But in capitalism these people don't count.

They are not victims of an unstable system. They are invisible and you're not supposed to notice them.

Capitalism is a smiling face saying all is well with ruin all around that somehow isn't noticed.

The 2008 crash, the biggest in a long time, isn't even in the same league with what has happened to Venezuela.

And note that the root cause of the 2008 crash was not capitalism, but rather the federal guarantee of very low quality mortgages. The government declared trash to be good stuff, as one would expect a big game of sell-trash-to-the-government developed. Eventually the mess collapsed.

Note that most of the people hurt were players in the game. Those of us who weren't trying to ride the wave up rarely lost our houses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those that commit the greatest crimes, cause the greatest harm, do the greatest damage fly away on a magic carpet made of gold in capitalism.

Even more so in Venezuela. The money flow to the cronies can't stop no matter how badly it hurts the country.

 

[untermensche]

Those that commit the greatest crimes, cause the greatest harm, do the greatest damage fly away on a magic carpet made of gold in capitalism.

Even more so in Venezuela. The money flow to the cronies can't stop no matter how badly it hurts the country.

Nice deflection.

Your wilful blindness is amazing.

What is happening in Venezuela is not good but people have been suffering all over the capitalist controlled parts of the world for a long time.

Capitalist Haiti and capitalist Guatemala and capitalist Mexico and capitalist Indonesia.

Millions being crushed by the capitalist system like insects.

And that's as much as you think of them.