Soccer

[laughing dog]

Champion's League Finals today:

Atletico Madrid 1 Liverpool 0 which breaks Liverpool's winning streak, and means Liverpool must win by 2 goals in the return match or win by shootout.

Borussia Dortmund 2 PSG 1 - once again, PSG appears on the verge of under-performing in the UCL.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Champion's League Finals today:

Atletico Madrid 1 Liverpool 0 which breaks Liverpool's winning streak, and means Liverpool must win by 2 goals in the return match or win by shootout.

Borussia Dortmund 2 PSG 1 - once again, PSG appears on the verge of under-performing in the UCL.

Liverpool's winning streak is more EPL than outside EPL, as they lost to Aston Villa in the League Cup already, as well as to Napoli in the Group Stage.

 

[rousseau]

I just tuned in to watch Barcelona Messi play. Something of an uninspired game without a ton of energy, which seems to be the advantage Liverpool had last year in the Champion's League. They run.

On a slightly related note I was reading up on how the Pittsburgh Penguins have managed such a good record this year, and it turns out they took on a 'hard work' philosophy this season. Put simply they're out-muscling other teams. This would make some sense as a strategy in any sport - if you can run faster, harder, and longer than your opponent you're going to create more, and stop more scoring opportunities.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of course, as every endurance athlete can tell you, that requires substantial stamina. Klopp burned out Dortmond. You can only go with such an intensity for so long.

 

[rousseau]

Stumbled across this article tonight:

What makes good teams good?

I thought it presented a pretty good argument, which was that what differentiates good teams from poor ones is the overall technical skill of their players - basically how accurately they can make the ball do what they want it to do.

One of those things that sounds obvious when you hear it, but maybe not as obvious before hand.

 

[TSwizzle]

Good players make for a good team. But they also need a good manager and coach.

 

[rousseau]

Good players make for a good team. But they also need a good manager and coach.

That's true, and the article mentions it, but goes on to argue what specifically makes them good players. Basically superior ball control.

Basically the argument comes from the frame of reference of analytics which tries to quantify the game, but may be missing the fuzzier statistic of how well a player can control a ball. For example, analytics would measure something like a players 'completed passes' or 'controlled balls', but not quantify the degree of accuracy of those passes or controls.

The overarching conclusion is that to make a team better you can sign players with good ball control, or teach your players how to better control the ball.

 

[TSwizzle]

It is a pretty pointless article actually because that is what has been happening in modern football for decades. Most professional clubs have youth development or farm teams and they train every day to improve a player's technical skills, stamina, tactics etc. A player with a poor first touch is not going to succeed although there are a few outliers. A "football brain" is a lot more difficult to teach, some would say impossible.

 

[rousseau]

It is a pretty pointless article actually because that is what has been happening in modern football for decades. Most professional clubs have youth development or farm teams and they train every day to improve a player's technical skills, stamina, tactics etc. A player with a poor first touch is not going to succeed although there are a few outliers. A "football brain" is a lot more difficult to teach, some would say impossible.

I think the point you're missing is that, yes, football clubs realize that technical skill is important, but once you actually attempt to quantify the game and prove which skills are the most important, it becomes non-obvious. So what clubs do is a general crap-shoot of emphasizing a number of different qualities, but may or may not realize that ball control is the most productive one.

This is the point of analytics, to actually measure the game rather than relying on gut instincts and bias. For example, 50 years ago people had a pretty good idea of what made a good baseball player, but once people started analyzing the game more logically they came to a better understanding in many measurable ways.

So how do you take a sport with a huge number of variables and try to accurately quantify how to best make a team better. That's what the article is trying to identify.

 

[bilby]

Technical skills are necessary for someone to be a great player; But insufficient to make a great team.

It's useful to be able to pass with pin point accuracy, but unless your teammates know your play well enough (and you theirs) to time a run so that both ball and teammate arrive at that same point at the same time, all the accuracy in the world is useless.

A great team is made up of players who pass accurately, not to where another team member is, but to where he will be. That requires not just technical ability, but also a level of familiarity with each other's play that comes only from constantly playing and training together, under a coach who designs plays that take advantage of both the ability and style of each man on the field.

A team that does this successfully often struggles if they lose key players, not because the substitute is less skilled, but because he is less in tune with what the rest of the team is going to do next in any given situation.

 

[TSwizzle]

I think the point you're missing is that, yes, football clubs realize that technical skill is important, but once you actually attempt to quantify the game and prove which skills are the most important, it becomes non-obvious.

It just doesn't work that way in soccer. The team is a blend of skills and players may be more proficient in skills other than ball control that more than make up for any perceived deficiency in ball control.

So what clubs do is a general crap-shoot of emphasizing a number of different qualities, but may or may not realize that ball control is the most productive one.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Environment also plays a part.

This is the point of analytics, to actually measure the game rather than relying on gut instincts and bias. For example, 50 years ago people had a pretty good idea of what made a good baseball player, but once people started analyzing the game more logically they came to a better understanding in many measurable ways.

Soccer/football does not really fit in with the use of this type of analytics.

So how do you take a sport with a huge number of variables and try to accurately quantify how to best make a team better. That's what the article is trying to identify.

It will only take you so far.

In my opinion, there is no single skill, such as ball control that a team/club would emphasize to make it better. You simply wouldn't put together a team based solely on ball control. 11 men with fantastic ball control but not one of them can defend a set piece to save their life, make a tackle or head the ball.

 

[rousseau]

It just doesn't work that way in soccer. The team is a blend of skills and players may be more proficient in skills other than ball control that more than make up for any perceived deficiency in ball control.

Of course, the point of the exercise isn't to build a team that's strictly good at one skill, it's to quantify the importance of different skills.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Environment also plays a part.

Maybe, that was really just an assumption on my part.

Soccer/football does not really fit in with the use of this type of analytics.

Possibly, but nobody knows for sure if they don't try.

It will only take you so far.

In my opinion, there is no single skill, such as ball control that a team/club would emphasize to make it better. You simply wouldn't put together a team based solely on ball control. 11 men with fantastic ball control but not one of them can defend a set piece to save their life, make a tackle or head the ball.

Again, nobody would claim that ball control is the only important skill, but maybe the quantitatively most important skill. Those are two different claims. Nobody is trying to build a team that only controls balls, they're trying to define which specific qualities in a good player may be the most important

And it's this kind of gut instinct like in my opinion that analytics hope to dispel. A lot of people have opinions, but that doesn't mean those opinions are correct, it doesn't mean they're wrong either, but that's why mathematics approaches the problem. They investigate the game mathematically to see if they can model it.

Maybe you're right and they really can't, but the point is to try in the first place. Maybe a person just doesn't care for analytics in the first place - fair enough - some people just like the statistical, and mathematical side of the game.

 

[rousseau]

Liverpool's streak comes to an end, but to put it in perspective:

They had the highest points per game of any team to go over 34 unbeaten. Who knows when the premier league was at it's strongest, though.

 

[rousseau]

Could I politely ask that we save analysis and scores of Champion's league games until next day after the game? Since they're played mid-week many are often watching a replay played in the evening, vs the live game.

I had the first leg of Atletico-Liverpool spoiled before I watched it, unfortunately.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, this could be the last possible spoiler as the Olympiakos owner has tested positive after being in the tunnel at the same time with five or so Arsenal players. Football could be turned off. Arsenal and Man City was cancelled today.

 

[rousseau]

So the premier league is coming back next week. I'm a little conflicted now that we've got a third member of the family, but I'll likely try to catch a game or two while the kid naps. Not sure I'll be renewing my DAZN subscription next season.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

EPL in the Eastern Time Zone is perfect for babies!

 

[TSwizzle]

And as quick as the EPL returned, it’s almost over as the title could be decided Thursday if Citeh don’t beat Chelski. But let’s face it, it’s only delaying the inevitable it Citeh win.

Bundisliga Already decided.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Covid killed Bundesliga. There were a bunch of teams in the running and then *pause*. Bayern back. *sigh*

Meanwhile Liverpool crushed Crystal Palace and are one win away from the title. It’ll be interesting how Liverpool try to celebrate a title victory. The Reds also aren’t done as several records are still out there, so we’ll see. Hopefully City lose and Liverpool take it before any other pause. Granted it’d take a bit for another pause to be necessary.

One of the best seasons ever and it’ll be done in solitude.

 

[TSwizzle]

Liverpool are crowned EPL Champions at last. It's a shame that it was under the cloud of Covid lock down as the fans are robbed of a traditional celebration. Liverpool were so far ahead of the other teams they will be strongly fancied for retaining the title next season. They could possibly dominate for a few years yet.