Some random questions

[ideologyhunter]

An 'evil god' couldn't very well provide an afterlife characterized by eternal joy, so that entire function of religion wouldn't work for anyone who assessed their god in that way. I can't imagine believing in life after brain death, let alone eternal life, but for those to whom this is a precious belief, it requires a Heavenly Father who is described in I John as, simply, love. He's got all your dead relatives up there too, maybe sitting at a golden picnic table. Can you take your pets? Sure, why not. God, the ultimate invisible BFF.

 

[DBT]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Does the bible paint a picture of a good God, claimed to be a God of Love? What about the version of God as 'revealed' by Mohammad?

The Bible explicitly claims (by revelation at that) that God is just, merciful, and compassionate. God is perfect, God loves us (John 3;16 For God so loved the world...). And God is defined as perfect. And there are numerous verses of the Bible that tell us what is meant by merciful, just, compassionate and merciful. Which means theists cannot go on to claim that mercy or compassion means something different with God than these words mean when applied to mankind. See Isaiah 1 for examples of what is meant by merciful and good.

As for the Quran, we have Qadr, Allah's predestination. God leads who he will and leads astray who he will lead astray. I found 28 examples in the Quran that claim we are what we are due to Allah.

Nor is that to be found only in the Quran.

See also: Ezekiel 11:18-20, Ezekiel 36:25-7, Jeremiah 24:7, Jeremiah 32:38-41,
Hebrews 8:10-12, Hebrews 10:15-17

Ezekiel 11
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the
detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within
you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give
them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and
do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

And with the "Great Commission" of Mark 16 and Matthew 28, God could do this for Christians.

So much for the free will arguments that Christians offer up to explain moral evil and great horrendous suffering that follows moral evil.

Romans 11. Why did the Jews not accept jesus as the messiah? God hardened their hearts not to do so. Why not harden their hearts to believe? Why not all mankind?

 

[DBT]

The God of Love in Deed and Action.

 

[Learner]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

 

[DBT]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

 

[steve_bank]

'It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven'?


Ir is like debating cartoons as if they were real characters.

Greek ad Roman gods are more sophisticated than the simplistic bible god. They are defined as to characteristics.

 

[DBT]

Judaism has satan as an agent of God, doing God's will in order to test His Chosen People and carry out the Grand Plan.

 

[Tigers!]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

 

[DBT]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

 

[Tigers!]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

 

[Tigers!]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

I did not ignore them. I was merely responding to your assertion that there was a revolt in heaven.
Obviously Satan and his followers were dissatisfied with/about something. They would not have revolted otherwise.
The choice was theirs. They did not have to revolt. They chose to do so anyway.

 

[DBT]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

I did not ignore them. I was merely responding to your assertion that there was a revolt in heaven.
Obviously Satan and his followers were dissatisfied with/about something. They would not have revolted otherwise.
The choice was theirs. They did not have to revolt. They chose to do so anyway.

If heaven existed and there was a revolt in heaven, there is dissatisfaction in heaven. If a third of the host of heaven revolted against God, there was significant dissatisfaction with God and His Rule in Heaven simmering for some time. Instead of everyone being happy or in a state of bliss in heaven, there was widespread resentment. That is not a choice. Something made a third of the inhabitants of heaven feel that way. We don't say ''I choose to be resentful,'' Nobody says, ''I am very happy but I choose to start a revolution because I have decided to feel that way.'' For a widespread revolt to happen, something was not right in heaven.

Just to add, this is not the theology of Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Tigers!]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

I did not ignore them. I was merely responding to your assertion that there was a revolt in heaven.
Obviously Satan and his followers were dissatisfied with/about something. They would not have revolted otherwise.
The choice was theirs. They did not have to revolt. They chose to do so anyway.

If heaven existed and there was a revolt in heaven, there is dissatisfaction in heaven. If a third of the host of heaven revolted against God, there was significant dissatisfaction with God and His Rule in Heaven simmering for some time. Instead of everyone being happy or in a state of bliss in heaven, there was widespread resentment. That is not a choice. Something made a third of the inhabitants of heaven feel that way.

Perhaps they were feeling contrary. They may have felt that way because they wished too, with no reason to be dissatisfied. That is a choice.
We have all come across those beings who are never satisfied about anything. Always moaning about their lot in life. That is a choice.

We don't say ''I choose to be resentful,''

People say it all the time. Resentment is by definition is a choice. You do not have to be resentful.

Nobody says, ''I am very happy but I choose to start a revolution because I have decided to feel that way.''

If they were happy they would not have revolted.

For a widespread revolt to happen, something was not right in heaven.

Or something was thought to be not right. It does not have to have a basis in rationality.

Just to add, this is not the theology of Orthodox Judaism.

True but so what?

 

[bilby]

Perhaps they were feeling contrary. They may have felt that way because they wished too, with no reason to be dissatisfied. That is a choice.

Perhaps.

I am feeling contrary myself, so I think I shall level the Himalayas with a teaspoon.

Now, you may think that it is absurd for someone to try to level the Himalayas with a teaspoon, and that any attempt to do so would be so futile that it would be barely noticable.

But it's FAR more futile, and FAR less effective, to try to rebel against an omnipotent and omnicognisant being.

Revolutions only get attempted when those with a grievance become sufficiently powerful as to think that they might win; They need to think that their chances are really very good, because the risks are huge - and get bigger the more powerful the ruler is.

And as God knows all, and can do anything, supressing a revolution is a simple matter. No harm can be done by the revolutionaries that God does not allow. So, how is the punishment here in any way proportionate? The power imbalance is FAR greater than that between a toddler and his parents; If your three year old says "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!", do you see as a fitting punishment eternal damnation?

Wouldn't five minutes in time-out seem more reasonable?

With great power comes great responsibility. An omnicognisant and omnipotent being has no need for eternal (or even severe) punishment; Such punishments are for weak rulers who wish to appear strong. By damning the rebels to hell, God is being a total dick, applying massively disproportionate punishment to a trivial crime against his invulnerable self.

That seems like an excellent and totally valid reason to be more than a little dissatisfied.

 

[DBT]

If God loves to play with human lives on Earth, why would it be any different in heaven?

Entertaining the idea you describe above:

In simple terms.It's different because humans filter out by themselves where they want to be later on. Those that like the idea of heaven and want to be there, and those that hate the idea that naughty selfish, all-about-me things don't exist there, so to speak...
...cos in heaven, the only humans that will be there, are the ones that wouldn't need God to "play with their lives"(as you put it). They would be doing quite fine by themselves not needing to be told what to do.

Yet in Christian theology we are told that there was a revolt in Heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven rebelled against God, which implies that there was dissatisfaction with God and His Kingdom.

Yes there was.
Free will sometimes sucks

Way too simplistic. You ignore the conditions in what is supposed to be heaven, the drivers of revolt, motive, reason, etc.....

I did not ignore them. I was merely responding to your assertion that there was a revolt in heaven.
Obviously Satan and his followers were dissatisfied with/about something. They would not have revolted otherwise.
The choice was theirs. They did not have to revolt. They chose to do so anyway.

If heaven existed and there was a revolt in heaven, there is dissatisfaction in heaven. If a third of the host of heaven revolted against God, there was significant dissatisfaction with God and His Rule in Heaven simmering for some time. Instead of everyone being happy or in a state of bliss in heaven, there was widespread resentment. That is not a choice. Something made a third of the inhabitants of heaven feel that way.

Perhaps they were feeling contrary. They may have felt that way because they wished too, with no reason to be dissatisfied. That is a choice.
We have all come across those beings who are never satisfied about anything. Always moaning about their lot in life. That is a choice.

We don't say ''I choose to be resentful,''

People say it all the time. Resentment is by definition is a choice. You do not have to be resentful.

Nobody says, ''I am very happy but I choose to start a revolution because I have decided to feel that way.''

If they were happy they would not have revolted.

For a widespread revolt to happen, something was not right in heaven.

Or something was thought to be not right. It does not have to have a basis in rationality.

Just to add, this is not the theology of Orthodox Judaism.

True but so what?

People say "I choose to be resentful'' all the time? I've never heard anyone say that. Resentment is related to situation or condition that you are not satisfied with but cannot remedy without consequences. As the story goes, for some reason a third of the host of heaven must have felt dissatisfied with the rule of God, so the question, why would that happen in Heaven?

 

[Learner]

As the story goes, for some reason a third of the host of heaven must have felt dissatisfied with the rule of God, so the question, why would that happen in Heaven

Because that's how you get a perfect 'New' Heaven & Earth.

The concept is so simple but yet so genius. Even merely as a storyline - conceptually it is extraordinary writing imo.

Basically...only the satisfied will be living in the New Heaven and Earth under Jesus/God. The previously dissatisfied declare their position by their own volition - willingly excluding themselves from being under the rulership of Jesus in the New Heaven and new Earth.

 

[DBT]

As the story goes, for some reason a third of the host of heaven must have felt dissatisfied with the rule of God, so the question, why would that happen in Heaven?

Because that's how you get a perfect 'New' Heaven & Earth.

The concept is so simple but yet so genius, even merely as a storyline - conceptually it is extraordinary writing imo.
Simply...only the satisfied will be living in Heaven under Jesus/God. The previously dissatisfied declare their position by their own volition. Willingly excluding themselves from being under the rulership of Jesus in the New Heaven and new Earth.

Yet there are reasons why someone does something. The issue here is why there was dissatisfaction in paradise, why a third of the host of heaven felt the need to rebel against God.

 

[Learner]

Individual independent thinking per heart & mind!

(the old 'free will')

 

[DBT]

Individual independent thinking per heart & mind!

(the old 'free will')

Everything is interelated. Everyone thinks and acts in relation to the conditions they are in, their own environment, the world at large. The issue isn't that a third of the host of heaven could not act against the rule of God in Heaven, but why they did. It's the why of it that's the issue.