South Carolina Flag Debate

[RavenSky]

*breathes*

Okay, let's get to it. Short Version, no links.

The southern leaders were initially angry because northerners often opposed the "right" for southerners to travel to the north, find a free black person, and kidnap and enslave them. In fact, General Lee did exactly this to roughly 1000 people during the war.

They were also angry because their invasions of other countries, in the thought of creating a slave-holding empire were thwarted.

They became so angry because Lincoln was elected, that they committed treason, and waged the most proportionally costly war in US history.

Later on, this very flag was taken up by the largest terrorist group in US history, the Klu Klux Klan, a group devoted to violence against black people.

It was later used as the chosen symbol of segregation and the lie of "separate but equal" - meaning, the continued oppression of black people., which is precisely why it is flying where it now is.

And - suprise! - it was happily displayed by the 21 year old white terrorist who walked into the historical black church, sat down and read the bible with them, and then slaughtered them.

That flag represents ALL OF THAT.

I love the idea that it's about "the South". No, it's not. It's about certain white southerners. Specifically, it's about white supremacists.

The guy who used the flag of Norway used it incorrectly. The 21 year old terrorist used the confederate battle flag correctly - with hate.

But they need a flag to fly. Symbols are important. What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong? What the Confederate flag has going for it is that it´s a very strong symbol. I mean, purely semiotically. It looks good, specifically when lined up next to the Union flag. Compare it with the swastika. Also a very strong symbol. Which is why it is still one of the main symbols for Buddhism and Hinduism no matter the Nazi shenanigans.

How about South Carolina fly the South Carolina state flag? "The South" is not some homogeneous region that needs its own separate flag in addition to the individual state flags and the national flag. The northeast region doesn't have a separate flag flying at the many state capitols; neither does "the west" or "the heartland" regions.

 

[RavenSky]

Why? My grandparents were from the south, and they certainly wouldn't want to fly that flag. Probably because it was the chosen flag of the very people that forced them to flee their homes.




Exactly. And I am acknowledging it's importance.

Hmm... Sweden raped and looted half of Europe in the 17´th century and carried off all their stuff to Sweden. We still haven´t given any of it it back. So I guess now it´s our stuff. Anyhoo... Sweden was not nice.

We still fly the Swedish flag happily. It doesn´t only symbolise rape, robbery and murder. It also symbolises a bunch of positive things. Most importantly it symbolises all the stuff that sets Sweden apart from the rest of Europe.

I just want to be clear here. I´m not a patriot. I don´t like patriotism, nationalism or any national pride. I think it´s stupid and unhelpful. But I still acknowledge that lots of people have very low self esteem, and they seem to need these kinds of symbols to hang on to as a way of gaining a confidence them seem unable to muster all on their own. I think it would be a shame to rob them of this. Not everybody is as cool as you or me.

What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong?

I don't have a suggestion. They can come up with something new.

That´s not how symbols work. It´s probably got to be one of the flags the Confederacy actually used. Or a thing or symbol they used back then that can go on a flag. Symbols need to capture emotions somehow. Not all symbols can do that. It needs to be something powerful. And the more it annoys non-Southerners the more powerful the symbol becomes. That´s a thing about patriotic symbols. They´re just as much a symbol for something as against something.

The point that you are missing is that you have been comparing the flags representing nations to a flag that doesn't represent anything except racist ideals.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, there wasn't a reason for the Confederacy except slavery. It was the one reason for the Civil War. It was about the Slaveholding States wanting to kill off anybody who tried to put limits on their ability to enslave people.

It's a racist symbol of hatred and nothing else.

Also, Sweden owes me $117.53 plus 300 years of compound interest. I'll take a cheque.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Ya, there wasn't a reason for the Confederacy except slavery. It was the one reason for the Civil War. It was about the Slaveholding States wanting to kill off anybody who tried to put limits on their ability to enslave people.

It's a racist symbol of hatred and nothing else.

Also, Sweden owes me $117.53 plus 300 years of compound interest. I'll take a cheque.

You'll get it in Confederate Dollars. and learn how to spell. It makes youse Canadineese look dumber when you spells "czeck", "cheque"

 

[Horatio Parker]

(CNN)Walmart and Sears, two of the country's largest retailers, will remove all Confederate flag merchandise from their stores.

..

 

[jladam]

I´m looking at this as a complete outsider. I don´t get the tiff. The Civil War was a thing for the South. A big thing. They need to be allowed to have pride about it (and fly the symbols) without feeling shame about it. The fact that the South supported slavery and the North didn´t is irrelevant. The North weren´t fighting against slavery. They were just as racist. The guy who did the mass shootings in Norway flew the Norwegian flag. They´re not about to remove that from their parliament. That kid might as well have used a Union flag. Then this debate wouldn´t exist.

If I remember my history correctly the Union reconstruction thing was horrendously corrupt and crappy. So the southerners felt butthurt, for good reason, and decided to fly, not the Confederate flag, but the flag of general Lee. Which now has replaced the Confederate flag as a symbol completely. I don´t understand how anybody can have a problem with that. It also looks cool IMHO.

The problem is not flying the Confederate flag. It's placing it on the grounds of the State Capitol. No one else gets to put their symbols of heritage or whatever there. No one is saying that one can't fly the flag on their own private property. No one is saying that it can't be put on the bumper sticker of your car, or worn on your t-shirt or hat or tattooed on your arm. I don't get to put any symbols of my special heritage or history on the grounds of the State Capitol, so why should anyone else.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I´m looking at this as a complete outsider. I don´t get the tiff. The Civil War was a thing for the South. A big thing. They need to be allowed to have pride about it (and fly the symbols) without feeling shame about it. The fact that the South supported slavery and the North didn´t is irrelevant. The North weren´t fighting against slavery. They were just as racist. The guy who did the mass shootings in Norway flew the Norwegian flag. They´re not about to remove that from their parliament. That kid might as well have used a Union flag. Then this debate wouldn´t exist.

If I remember my history correctly the Union reconstruction thing was horrendously corrupt and crappy. So the southerners felt butthurt, for good reason, and decided to fly, not the Confederate flag, but the flag of general Lee. Which now has replaced the Confederate flag as a symbol completely. I don´t understand how anybody can have a problem with that. It also looks cool IMHO.

The problem is not flying the Confederate flag.

If it were even the Confederate Flag. It is the Battle Flag for the Confederacy. It stands as a symbol of treason. Forget the slavery and other evil aspects of it. It is a battle symbol for the insurgency against the US Constitution. It has no place in this nation, forget in a State Capital.

These assholes purport to love the Constitution, yet praise a symbol that was waved to try and defeat it.

 

[Sarpedon]

When people in Minnesota display it, it's generally racist.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

When people in Minnesota display it, it's generally racist.

That is the default. If you see someone flying a Confederate flag, it's fair to make the initial assumption that he's doing it because he's a racist - especially if he's doing it outside of the South. There are other reasons (for instance, he may just be an idiot), but odds are that the guy is a racist.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I´m looking at this as a complete outsider. I don´t get the tiff. The Civil War was a thing for the South. A big thing. They need to be allowed to have pride about it (and fly the symbols) without feeling shame about it. The fact that the South supported slavery and the North didn´t is irrelevant. The North weren´t fighting against slavery. They were just as racist. The guy who did the mass shootings in Norway flew the Norwegian flag. They´re not about to remove that from their parliament. That kid might as well have used a Union flag. Then this debate wouldn´t exist.

If I remember my history correctly the Union reconstruction thing was horrendously corrupt and crappy. So the southerners felt butthurt, for good reason, and decided to fly, not the Confederate flag, but the flag of general Lee. Which now has replaced the Confederate flag as a symbol completely. I don´t understand how anybody can have a problem with that. It also looks cool IMHO.

It's more than just the war and slavery. For a couple of generations, the south dominated US politics. The war was partly a result of their resisting the waning of their influence.

The meme of Reconstruction as a disaster is necessary to justify the Black Codes and Jim Crow era which followed. There was southern terrorist resistance to Reconstruction , and in the end the banks, who wanted to make the loans to rebuild the south but feared for their investments, got their way: give in to the segregationists. When Barack Obama was elected to the Senate, he was the second AA senator, the first having been elected during Reconstruction. The flag has become more a symbol of Jim Crow than the Confederacy IMO.

The motives for fighting the war in the North were mixed, but abolition was a big one, especially for New Englanders. The Radical Republcans, who were always unhappy with Lincoln for one reason or another, were ardent abolitionists.

Not all southerners were happy with secession. West Virginia broke away from Virginia and became a separate state. Knoxville, TN revolted against the Confederacy.

 

[Horatio Parker]

When people in Minnesota display it, it's generally racist.

When I was a teenager, a neighbor gave us, why I don't know, an authentic Nazi flag from WWII. My brother and I had a big room in the basement with a pool table, and we hung it there. We had several Jewish friends, and nobody in those days took offense, maybe it was thought of as a trophy rather than a statement. We didn't put much thought into it, we just thought it was cool. But it was just a rec room decoration. I don't know what happened to it, it would probably be worth something now.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

When people in Minnesota display it, it's generally racist.

When I was a teenager, a neighbor gave us, why I don't know, an authentic Nazi flag from WWII. My brother and I had a big room in the basement with a pool table, and we hung it there. We had several Jewish friends, and nobody in those days took offense, maybe it was thought of as a trophy rather than a statement. We didn't put much thought into it, we just thought it was cool. But it was just a rec room decoration. I don't know what happened to it, it would probably be worth something now.

Ya, if you or your ancestors fought the Nazis, then displaying the battle standards of your vanquished foes as a trophy is acceptable. Similarly, descendants of soldiers in the Northern army of the Civil War can hang up Confederate flags with a sense of pride about their forefathers' accomplishments. That's different than the descendants of Nazis or slavers wanting to display pride about the crappy things their ancestors were fighting for.

 

[Horatio Parker]

When I was a teenager, a neighbor gave us, why I don't know, an authentic Nazi flag from WWII. My brother and I had a big room in the basement with a pool table, and we hung it there. We had several Jewish friends, and nobody in those days took offense, maybe it was thought of as a trophy rather than a statement. We didn't put much thought into it, we just thought it was cool. But it was just a rec room decoration. I don't know what happened to it, it would probably be worth something now.

Ya, if you or your ancestors fought the Nazis, then displaying the battle standards of your vanquished foes as a trophy is acceptable. Similarly, descendants of soldiers in the Northern army of the Civil War can hang up Confederate flags with a sense of pride about their forefathers' accomplishments. That's different than the descendants of Nazis or slavers wanting to display pride about the crappy things their ancestors were fighting for.

Different, but also a different time which I guess is really my point. The time for Nazi flags in rec rooms and or the stars and bars is gone for good.

Pirates is an example, in the other direction. During the age of piracy, there was nothing funny or romantic about pirates. But after they were gone, and along came Robert Louis Stevenson and Robert Newton, pirates now have a fanciful image. Long John Silver, no problem, just show him you've got grit and he's all heart.

 

[ronburgundy]

Hmm... Sweden raped and looted half of Europe in the 17´th century and carried off all their stuff to Sweden. We still haven´t given any of it it back. So I guess now it´s our stuff. Anyhoo... Sweden was not nice.

Was the Swedish flag originally created specifically to represent a desire to rape and pillage people because of their race, and thus war with anyone who tried to stop from from doing that? Because the Confederate flag was. That is a world of difference. The very "Confederacy" itself existed primarily for that reason. Any honoring of the Confederacy or the South's efforts in the Civil War inherently honors those foundational racist, pro-slavery motives.

This is one time where the analogy to Nazi's is perfectly apt, and it is equal to flying a Nazi flag, and all the same bullshit excuses that racist give for flying it can be equally given for both.

A Southerner does not have to be directly trying to say "Fuck Niggers!" every time they fly it. Just like Nazi's don't have to be saying "Fuck Jews!". But both flags were essentially designed to represent that sentiment and represent opposition to anyone trying to stop them genocidal-level crimes against these groups. Since then, both flags have been used regularly to deliberately repeat this original sentiment. Thus, that is what both flags inherently convey, just as much as the words "Fuck you Nigger" convey it. A person too stupid to grasp language might claim they don't mean to convey that idea when they say those words, but it is an objective fact that they are conveying it to all those not as ignorant. Also, it is simply too implausible that any Southerner older than 10 is not aware that this is what it conveys. Thus, no matter their other supposed intentions, any one that displays it is at minimum doing so without any regard for the fact that they are endorsing and honoring racists and the symbol of pro-slavery they created. That at least requires the attitude that slavery was no big deal and a lack of any empathy for those who suffered from it. I think it is psychologically implausible that those qualities would exist who isn't a rather strong racist themselves, even if they are not intentionally declaring that racism by displaying that flag.

In sum, the flag must go, and anyone that displays it should be inferred to be a racist with an ugly and disturbing lack of concern about honoring (intentionally or otherwise) the pro-slavery history of the Confederacy and that symbol.

 

[jonatha]

We still fly the Swedish flag happily. It doesn´t only symbolise rape, robbery and murder. It also symbolises a bunch of positive things.

The Confederate flag does not symbolize anything positive, and hasn't since at least Brown v. Board of Education.

Some decades back, I and another native Kentuckian spent several months on work assignment in Toronto. Our Canadian coworkers hung a Confederate flag (adulterated with an eagle screeching in the center) in our office. It stayed there two minutes.

 

[Horatio Parker]

We still fly the Swedish flag happily. It doesn´t only symbolise rape, robbery and murder. It also symbolises a bunch of positive things.

The Confederate flag does not symbolize anything positive, and hasn't since at least Brown v. Board of Education.

Some decades back, I and another native Kentuckian spent several months on work assignment in Toronto. Our Canadian coworkers hung a Confederate flag (adulterated with an eagle screeching in the center) in our office. It stayed there two minutes.

Kentucky and Missouri were represented by stars on the Confederate flag, but they were divided. When the war was winding down, and it was obvious that the North would win, Lincoln offered compensatatIon to border state slave holders if they would embrace emancipation. They turned him down. Odd blindness.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hmm... Sweden raped and looted half of Europe in the 17´th century and carried off all their stuff to Sweden. We still haven´t given any of it it back. So I guess now it´s our stuff. Anyhoo... Sweden was not nice.

Was the Swedish flag originally created specifically to represent a desire to rape and pillage people because of their race, and thus war with anyone who tried to stop from from doing that?

Well.. not race specifically. But all flags were created out of a desire to rape and pillage some other people. Flags are about allowing mercenaries to keep track of which lord they were temporarily employed by, so they didn´t commit the immoral act of accidentally raping the wrong side. Also, so ships knew which ships that it wasn´t ok to board and plunder for no reason other than greed. All countries that are monarchies have this history to their flags. 17´th century man, and before, wasn´t particularly racist. Racism didn´t really start appearing until the Enlightenment. It was the rise of science that also brought about the rise of racism.

Romans for instance were not racist at all. They were not above xenophobia and raping and pillaging on whatever flimsy pretext they randomly pulled out of their asses. Race was never one of those pretexts. It just didn´t happen. Speaking the wrong language was a target for ridicule. But never race.

This is one time where the analogy to Nazi's is perfectly apt, and it is equal to flying a Nazi flag, and all the same bullshit excuses that racist give for flying it can be equally given for both.

A Southerner does not have to be directly trying to say "Fuck Niggers!" every time they fly it. Just like Nazi's don't have to be saying "Fuck Jews!". But both flags were essentially designed to represent that sentiment and represent opposition to anyone trying to stop them genocidal-level crimes against these groups. Since then, both flags have been used regularly to deliberately repeat this original sentiment. Thus, that is what both flags inherently convey, just as much as the words "Fuck you Nigger" convey it. A person too stupid to grasp language might claim they don't mean to convey that idea when they say those words, but it is an objective fact that they are conveying it to all those not as ignorant. Also, it is simply too implausible that any Southerner older than 10 is not aware that this is what it conveys. Thus, no matter their other supposed intentions, any one that displays it is at minimum doing so without any regard for the fact that they are endorsing and honoring racists and the symbol of pro-slavery they created. That at least requires the attitude that slavery was no big deal and a lack of any empathy for those who suffered from it. I think it is psychologically implausible that those qualities would exist who isn't a rather strong racist themselves, even if they are not intentionally declaring that racism by displaying that flag.

In sum, the flag must go, and anyone that displays it should be inferred to be a racist with an ugly and disturbing lack of concern about honoring (intentionally or otherwise) the pro-slavery history of the Confederacy and that symbol.

I´m actually all for Nazis having the right to fly their Nazi flags. In Sweden the Nazi party can´t fly the Nazi flag so they fly this one:

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/images/112/1034415_520_292.jpg?preset=article

THE-EXACT-SAME-THING

Forbidding symbols is literally to sweep a problem under the rug instead of dealing with it. I think it´s good for the public discourse that racists are allowed to use whatever racist symbols they like. A racist out in the open is a hell of a lot less dangerous than one in hiding.

 

[Mumbles]

It,s not a matter if some white supremacist wants to announce himself. But why should the state endorse it?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Forbidding symbols is literally to sweep a problem under the rug instead of dealing with it. I think it´s good for the public discourse that racists are allowed to use whatever racist symbols they like. A racist out in the open is a hell of a lot less dangerous than one in hiding.

I think you're missing the point. Do Nazi flags fly over public buildings in Sweden? Confederate flags do so in South Carolina.

I haven't noticed anyone saying they should be stringen verboten. Legal, yes, socially acceptable, no.

 

[jladam]

Forbidding symbols is literally to sweep a problem under the rug instead of dealing with it. I think it´s good for the public discourse that racists are allowed to use whatever racist symbols they like. A racist out in the open is a hell of a lot less dangerous than one in hiding.

As I stated before, nobody is forbidding anyone from flying the Confederate flag. They are just removing it from the grounds of the State Capitol. That's all.