South Carolina Flag Debate

[Tom Sawyer]

Forbidding symbols is literally to sweep a problem under the rug instead of dealing with it. I think it´s good for the public discourse that racists are allowed to use whatever racist symbols they like. A racist out in the open is a hell of a lot less dangerous than one in hiding.

As I stated before, nobody is forbidding anyone from flying the Confederate flag. They are just removing it from the grounds of the State Capitol. That's all.

Ya, the places in Europe which ban the Nazi flag entirely are in the wrong, IMO. There's a large difference, however, between a private individual displaying it and having it flown by the government.

 

[ronburgundy]

Was the Swedish flag originally created specifically to represent a desire to rape and pillage people because of their race, and thus war with anyone who tried to stop from from doing that?

Well.. not race specifically.

The race component is a very major factor in why the flag can never be displayed without it inherently endorsing racist inhumanity toward others.
People fuck each other over all the time, take each others shit, etc.. But when there is no defining biological attribute that determines who, and its just done to whomever happened to be born on one side of an imaginary border or who swears allegiance to a different leader, then it is more tied to a particular time-locked context, rather than to ethnic or racial categories that transcend narrow context and time.

But all flags were created out of a desire to rape and pillage some other people.

Sorry, but that's bullshit equivocation. The earliest basic purpose of a flag is largely irrelevant to flags created in the last few centuries. Flags are created as symbols to represent loyalty to a particular clan or group, and usually to a specific defining ideology. Was the defining ideology of the US and its flag the rape and pillage of other people? No. The same with the Swedes. Sure, they may have engaged in wars where such things happened, but those acts were not the defining acts the defined the groups nor for which the flag was created to represent.
In contrast, that was and is the case with the Nazi and Confederate flags. The flags were created to represent allegiance to racist ideology and racist political goals. That was the core and defining feature that determined who was in versus out of the group. That is a world of difference from a flag that represents a clan that was not created around racist/genocidal aims, even if at points in their history they were guilty of such acts.

This is one time where the analogy to Nazi's is perfectly apt, and it is equal to flying a Nazi flag, and all the same bullshit excuses that racist give for flying it can be equally given for both.

A Southerner does not have to be directly trying to say "Fuck Niggers!" every time they fly it. Just like Nazi's don't have to be saying "Fuck Jews!". But both flags were essentially designed to represent that sentiment and represent opposition to anyone trying to stop them genocidal-level crimes against these groups. Since then, both flags have been used regularly to deliberately repeat this original sentiment. Thus, that is what both flags inherently convey, just as much as the words "Fuck you Nigger" convey it. A person too stupid to grasp language might claim they don't mean to convey that idea when they say those words, but it is an objective fact that they are conveying it to all those not as ignorant. Also, it is simply too implausible that any Southerner older than 10 is not aware that this is what it conveys. Thus, no matter their other supposed intentions, any one that displays it is at minimum doing so without any regard for the fact that they are endorsing and honoring racists and the symbol of pro-slavery they created. That at least requires the attitude that slavery was no big deal and a lack of any empathy for those who suffered from it. I think it is psychologically implausible that those qualities would exist who isn't a rather strong racist themselves, even if they are not intentionally declaring that racism by displaying that flag.

In sum, the flag must go, and anyone that displays it should be inferred to be a racist with an ugly and disturbing lack of concern about honoring (intentionally or otherwise) the pro-slavery history of the Confederacy and that symbol.

I´m actually all for Nazis having the right to fly their Nazi flags. In Sweden the Nazi party can´t fly the Nazi flag so they fly this one:

As individuals, they should be allowed to fly the Nazi flag all they want (perhaps not so its highly visible to the general public). But the second a government starts flying it again, we should bomb them to oblivion.

Forbidding symbols is literally to sweep a problem under the rug instead of dealing with it. I think it´s good for the public discourse that racists are allowed to use whatever racist symbols they like. A racist out in the open is a hell of a lot less dangerous than one in hiding.

I am not arguing for forbidding individuals from showing whatever racism they want in words or symbols. You're right that its good to have them out in the open. I am saying that when they do so, all decent people should view and treat them like the racists that they declared themselves to be, without violating their own rights. I am also saying that no decent people should allow their government to promote racism and/or slavery by flying such flags, and our Fed Constitution should be applied or modified if needed to stop any state or local government from doing so, because of the undeniable harm that it does to the groups that the flags were intended to fuel hate against.
The symbols in question were inherently about promotion of particular actions against particular groups, and thus will always be a promotion of those actions. They are a particular type of symbol that makes the people who fly it a self-identified threat to human decency who should be watched with suspicion for actions that cross the line into criminal. And they are symbols that make any government that flies them a real and immediate threat that should be put down (whether foreign or domestic)since government is about policy and action that impacts those targeted groups, and they are declaring intent to act in accord with what those symbols represent.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It,s not a matter if some white supremacist wants to announce himself. But why should the state endorse it?

As I stated before, nobody is forbidding anyone from flying the Confederate flag. They are just removing it from the grounds of the State Capitol. That's all.

Ya, the places in Europe which ban the Nazi flag entirely are in the wrong, IMO. There's a large difference, however, between a private individual displaying it and having it flown by the government.

Plenty of people have said this, so I´ll reply to it only once. I am not ok with the government flying racist flags. Government buildings should fly the flags of whatever is they are actually representing.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Government buildings should fly the flags of whatever is they are actually representing.

Well, that's kinda the point.
The people who put the flag over the capitol wanted to make it clear which part of the citizenry they were representing.

 

[SimpleDon]

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From Little Green Footballs, here.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I love Brietbart: "Hillary is just as bad!" Not to mention anyone with a button maker can make a Hillary or whomever button.

 

[SimpleDon]

I love Brietbart: "Hillary is just as bad!" Not to mention anyone with a button maker can make a Hillary or whomever button.

Isn't Brietbart the one who sponsored that guy who trolled Acorn? He pretended to be a pimp.

Yes, anyone can make a button, especially of a public figure.They lose the rights to their name and their image.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As I stated before, nobody is forbidding anyone from flying the Confederate flag. They are just removing it from the grounds of the State Capitol. That's all.

Ya, the places in Europe which ban the Nazi flag entirely are in the wrong, IMO.

How many tens of millions died fighting against those assholes and how many were slaughtered by them? A ban was appropriate as there was a strong desire then and should still be today, to eradicate the bullshit that was Nazism.

For the Confederate Battle flag, which allegedly is cultural despite only existing for actual use during the Civil War, was only really brought forth once the Civil Rights movement came out and began gaining steam. In 1961 it became the state flag of South Carolina.

Now, when Roof has the flag in his pics, he isn't holding the South Carolina flag. He is holding a symbol. That symbol is pro-white, anti-black. There is no other interpretation. He isn't holding it as a memorial for the slain traitors of 1861 - 1865.

So we have this flag which:

• isn't cultural
• has a racial component as a symbol when used by the likes of Roof and the many many racists out there in the south
• when it was in use, was the symbol of treason against the US and its Constitution

The racial component isn't anywhere as strong these days. However, the only cultural value is its racist history. The question isn't should they get rid of it... it should be "why the fuck did it take so long?"

 

[jonatha]

Kentucky and Missouri were represented by stars on the Confederate flag, but they were divided.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there were more sympathy for the Confederate cause in Kentucky in 2015 than in 1861...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the places in Europe which ban the Nazi flag entirely are in the wrong, IMO.

How many tens of millions died fighting against those assholes and how many were slaughtered by them? A ban was appropriate as there was a strong desire then and should still be today, to eradicate the bullshit that was Nazism.

And that's a very good reason to ban government displays of the flag. If individuals don't want to care about that, that's their business and not the government's business.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How many tens of millions died fighting against those assholes and how many were slaughtered by them? A ban was appropriate as there was a strong desire then and should still be today, to eradicate the bullshit that was Nazism.

And that's a very good reason to ban government displays of the flag. If individuals don't want to care about that, that's their business and not the government's business.

Nazism was about as ugly as it could get for a society in our era. Eugenics, genocide, ethnic cleansing, war. Hitler was able to convince a lot of people his bullshit was truth. Nazism needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth. The rebellion, obviously not as bad as the Nazi's, but I find terrible hypocrisy of people waving the thing around and saying they love the Constitution. Oddly, they don't also have stickers of Julius Rosenberg and Benedict Arnold. Not certain why

 

[Nice Squirrel]

BTW. In Minnesota we refuse to hide our Confederate Flags.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/06/21/minnesota-has-a-confederate-flag-on-display/

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ya, the places in Europe which ban the Nazi flag entirely are in the wrong, IMO.

How many tens of millions died fighting against those assholes and how many were slaughtered by them? A ban was appropriate as there was a strong desire then and should still be today, to eradicate the bullshit that was Nazism.

The ban is misplaced and counter-productive. It rests upon the faulty equivocation between the expression of an opinion and the existence of the opinion. If holders of a certain belief are told to keep it to themselves they can´t be challenged and called on their idiocy. But they, of course, won´t stop expressing their opinion. They´ll just start expressing it in code. So now only the holders of the opinion understand when the opinion is being expressed. They´re talking about it just as openly as they did before, but now they can´t be called on their bullshit because either...

1) ...people who don´t agree don´t understand the code.
2) ...or they can simply deny what the code actually stands for and won´t have to defend their bullshit when called on it.

The exact same thing is happening in China. There´s tonnes of words and expressions banned by the Chinese government. The dissidents are chatting just as freely as they always have because the codes can mutate instantly without any of the discourse being lost.

Banning the Nazi flag did not stop Nazism. If anything it only lead to its survival and strengthening. Nazism is more popular now than it has ever been post-WW2.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How many tens of millions died fighting against those assholes and how many were slaughtered by them? A ban was appropriate as there was a strong desire then and should still be today, to eradicate the bullshit that was Nazism.

The ban is misplaced and counter-productive. It rests upon the faulty equivocation between the expression of an opinion and the existence of the opinion. If holders of a certain belief are told to keep it to themselves they can´t be challenged and called on their idiocy.

Yes, that worked so well in the 30s.

Nazism may exist today, but it is nothing like it was in the 20's and 30's and is most likely empowered by nations formerly under Soviet control, where racism is quite rampant.

 

[Nexus]

It stands as a symbol of treason.

The US flag is a symbol of treason to England. Treason isn't objectively good or evil.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The ban is misplaced and counter-productive. It rests upon the faulty equivocation between the expression of an opinion and the existence of the opinion. If holders of a certain belief are told to keep it to themselves they can´t be challenged and called on their idiocy.

Yes, that worked so well in the 30s.

Nazism may exist today, but it is nothing like it was in the 20's and 30's and is most likely empowered by nations formerly under Soviet control, where racism is quite rampant.

Wait, what? Did you just say that? You don´t think that the loss of popularity for Nazism was that it was an oppressive and totalitarian nightmare of a regime that lost power and the war? Before the Nazis had been in power people could claim ignorance. After the war, not so much. We gave Nazism and fascism a fair shake and it didn´t pan out.

I´d say the banning of the Nazi flag did absolutely nothing to help the loss of Nazi support after the war. The Nazis themselves did a splendid job of that, all on their own, just by being their own lovable selves, ie massive fucking cunts.

Furthermore banning a symbol for an idea in the hope that the idea will die is tought-crime and thought-policing. It´s not cool in a liberal democracy. You can´t fight fascism by turning yourself into a fascist. It´s not how this democracy thing works. The Nazi flag turns people into Nazis about as effectively as a cross turns people into Christians. It´s missing the point.

 

[Smoker]

The confederate flag used to be the flag of my high school in the suburbs of Dallas Texas, and was flown on our main flagpole out front of the school and at all sports activities. Even though we only had about twenty black students at our school when I was there, I always wondered how it felt for them to see that flag flying at the school they attended. But I've also seen black people wear the same flag symbol on their belt, and it made me think that I might be too worried about being politically correct.



But I would still vote to change that flag. The majority of the time I see that flag is on the truck of some redneck who doesn't seem to care if they offend anybody. In my opinion, despite what others may tell you, that flag is still very associated with racism in the south.

 

[Smoker]

But they need a flag to fly. Symbols are important. What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong? What the Confederate flag has going for it is that it´s a very strong symbol. I mean, purely semiotically. It looks good, specifically when lined up next to the Union flag. Compare it with the swastika. Also a very strong symbol. Which is why it is still one of the main symbols for Buddhism and Hinduism no matter the Nazi shenanigans.

In the south, most of the normal people who are proud of their heritage fly the normal American flag in their front yard. You can see at least one American flag flying on almost any residential street in Texas. You only see the confederate flag flying once or twice a year in the yard or on the truck of some jackass wearing a cowboy hat who most likely owns more guns than they can count.

 

[bilby]

But they need a flag to fly. Symbols are important. What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong? What the Confederate flag has going for it is that it´s a very strong symbol. I mean, purely semiotically. It looks good, specifically when lined up next to the Union flag. Compare it with the swastika. Also a very strong symbol. Which is why it is still one of the main symbols for Buddhism and Hinduism no matter the Nazi shenanigans.

In the south, most of the normal people who are proud of their heritage fly the normal American flag in their front yard. You can see at least one American flag flying on almost any residential street in Texas. You only see the confederate flag flying once or twice a year in the yard or on the truck of some jackass wearing a cowboy hat who most likely owns more guns than they can count.

Well, it is Texas. Owning more than three guns is quite common there.

 

[Smoker]

Well, it is Texas. Owning more than three guns is quite common there.

That is true unfortunately. I've never actually purchased a gun, but I still somehow own seven or eight of them. The main reason I hold onto them is for protection from my neighbors who also probably have just as many guns.