South Carolina Flag Debate

[AthenaAwakened]

You have to keep in mind that the USA was envisioned originally as a loose confederation of states and states rights were very important to many, especially in the shadow of having succeeded from England. This was a war over self determination as much as it was a war over slavery. And if you look into the reasons the north fought the war, you'll find it was mostly to keep the union together and to tighten central control and build towards a strong and united power this side of the Atlantic. Manifest Destiny was the buzzword. Seen from that angle, Canada had fought the same war against the same aggressor in 1812. Having failed to conquer Canada and bring the north of the continent under their power, the US now faced a threat of falling apart in the south. Manifest Destiny was crumbling, and that was a big deal and something the north fought hard over. This wasn't all about slavery.

Really now?

The meaning of the Confederate flag is best discerned in the words of those who bore it.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

In short: no union solider on the battlefield said "Look, there is the flag of those racists - go get em boys".

Not with those exact words, but here is a monument which is very explicit.

But then again these are the same folks who did this:

 

[ksen]

https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/613419998262992896

The Left's 21st century agenda: expunging every trace of respect, recognition or acknowledgment of Americans who fought for the Confederacy. - Bill Kristol

Uh, Bill, the Confederates were traitors and insurrectionists. Why should they enjoy any respect, recognition or acknowledgment?

It's kind of odd that the Right gives Confederates (the people that actually fought to split the United States) more respect than people who want universal healthcare or paid maternity leave.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/613419998262992896

The Left's 21st century agenda: expunging every trace of respect, recognition or acknowledgment of Americans who fought for the Confederacy. - Bill Kristol

Uh, Bill, the Confederates were traitors and insurrectionists.

... And the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. As most things do, this all depends on how you look at it.

It's kind of odd that the Right gives Confederates (the people that actually fought to split the United States) more respect than people who want universal healthcare or paid maternity leave.

Perhaps those who want universal healthcare and paid maternity leave should fight to split the united states so they can have such things? And when you say "fought to split", I think you will find that many in the southern US did not intend the Union to be as strong as the northerners later forced it to be.

Do any of you remember the conspiracy theories going on a while ago that the US, Canadian and Mexican governments were planning to unite and join into a single country? Some Americans were imagining "them Mexicans" (and Canadians) being equal citizens to themselves and exerting power over them without their consent, and this double whammy of xenophobia and will for self determination (paranoia really) led to some pretty convoluted conspiracy theories.

Rugged individualism and anti-government is still a strong sentiment in the southern USA. Think guys living in the woods, building their own bomb shelters, squirreling away supplies, clasping tightly to their guns and bibles, ect. That is the mentality behind the confederate flag. it is more than racism. They have their in group, and no outsider gonna tell them wut te do.

 

[laughing dog]

Which included "tolerance of slavery". So, yes, it does represent a symbol of racism. It may not be exclusively a racist symbol, but it is a symbol of a racist culture and past.

By what criteria does it represent racism? Not by distinctiveness of racism, because almost all societies were racist in the 19th century. Not by the "causes" of racism, because almost all societies were economically insecure and threatened by 'the other'.

It represents racism
because part of the culture and "romance" of the old South was its attachment to the enslavement of blacks. Blacks were not considered people but property.

What the flag was intended to symbolize was what made the South different from the North in its identity: state's rights, local rule, and the economic importance acceptance of slavery as a institution. Racism and economic insecurity did not make it distinct. (And arguably, racism is not a cause of slavery, its a rationalization to protect economic needs).

Thank you for recognizing your own argument is nonsense. If the enslavement of people was necessary for to protect economic needs, it would not have been restricted to one race. Come on, you cannot seriously believe the crapola you are selling.

In short: no union solider on the battlefield said "Look, there is the flag of those racists - go get em boys".

As a matter of fact, the records of my great-grandfather who was a Union officer who fought in the Civil War indicate there were officers and soldiers who wrote and thought that very thought.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I really don't think this is true, and think you are embarking on some revisionist history here.

No, I'm really not.

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the Constitution, was the prevailing idea at the time. The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

This is Jefferson Davis -- the PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY -- stating that the primary point of contention between the Confederacy and the Union is the Union believes the races are equal and the Confederacy knows that blacks are inferior and must be enslaved.

Understand that if the U.S. constitution had held to this same basic assumption of white supremacy, there would be no reason for the Confederacy to exist.

Slavery and racist were certainly a big part of why the south fought the civil war, but I think there was more to it than just that. They wanted independence.

No they didn't. They wanted to preserve the institution of slavery indefinitely in the southern states. They didn't really care HOW that came about and would have been just as happy remaining in the Union if Lincoln hadn't been elected.

They didn't want to be independent. They wanted to keep their slaves. And they would not accept the rule of any government that didn't allow them to do that.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

They didn't want to be independent. They wanted to keep their slaves. And they would not accept the rule of any government that didn't allow them to do that.

And I think that the prevalent attitude after the war was to rejoin the Union. Slavery was over and hence the reason to continue fighting.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/613419998262992896



Uh, Bill, the Confederates were traitors and insurrectionists.

... And the Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. As most things do, this all depends on how you look at it.

No, it depends on what side you're on.

Israel, for example, has no problem with terrorism as long as they're the ones doing it (just ask the Hagannah). They don't have a problem with terrorists per se, they have a problem with Palestinians.

The revolutionaries were traitors and insurrectionists to the Crown in the 18th century; if the British feel sore about that, that's regrettable, but the outcome -- the creation of our nation as a result of said insurrection -- is a victory for us.

The Confederate States of America, on the other hand, didn't win the war. It lost; it was crushed, disbanded, and reintegrated into the Union it rightly belonged to in the first place. There is no "the other side" to claim Confederate heritage; they lost, so they're back in the union; the insurrectionists don't get to be heroes or revolutionaries, they're just dead traitors who gambled on a despicable cause and were soundly defeated for their trouble.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

They didn't want to be independent. They wanted to keep their slaves. And they would not accept the rule of any government that didn't allow them to do that.

And I think that the prevalent attitude after the war was to rejoin the Union. Slavery was over and hence the reason to continue fighting.

Exactly. The war to preserve slavery was lost; with their "peculiar institution" brought down, the Confederacy had no reason exist and no one had any more reason to resist reintegration.

On the other hand, maintaining white supremacy and various levels of de facto slavery for black people remained a high priority for the south and violent militant groups sprang up to fight for THAT cause, behavior which continued for over a hundred years.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Another one bites the dust.
Alabama Gov. Robert Bentley Orders Confederate Flag Taken Down From Capitol

 

[ksen]

http://www.nationaljournal.com/poli...itol-lose-the-jefferson-davis-statue-20150623
"Mitch McConnell to Kentucky Capitol: Lose the Jefferson Davis Statue"

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3303410/posts?page=27#27

I think today is the day I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion I can never vote GOP again. I used to think I’d at least support some tea-party guys and whatnot, but the GOP has just become too much to stomach, with this insane parade of GOP-er’s lining up with the Leftist Nazis and spitting in my face.

FReeper greene66 is not amused.

 

[ksen]

Oh, and FReeper TangibleDisgust is disgusted that the GOP will never elect another quality candidate and will instead vote for a woman, jew, atheist, homosexual, latino or albino.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3303410/posts?page=32#32

i can tell you this much... the GOP is deathly afraid of nominating another white christian man. the next couple of election cycles, they will be vying with the democRATS to be the first to nominate a women, a jew, an atheist, a homsexual, a latino, an albino, etc.

it’s no longer about the quality of the individual first, but which “first” they can become. the GOP has bought into the “equality of outcome” balderdash hook, line, and sinker.

the GOP is truly “democRAT Lite” now. i’m still registered as a republican, but i loathe the elites that run the party. maybe even more so than those in the democRAT party because the traitors in your ranks your ranks always do worse damage than the enemy across the field of battle.

i will never vote for another Bush. fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. fool me three times... nope, notgonnadooit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Interesting arguments on the AM Radio dial.

Hannity - I don't give a fuck about the flag. Democrats put it up there in the first place. Lincoln was a Republican!
Mike Gallagher - I know I'm in the minority, but the flag should stay. Honestly, I think the nation is 50-50 on this, but I'm staying with my gut and am in the minority and think we need to keep the flag, because what do the liberals take next. The flag has many meanings.
Limbaugh - This is about hate!

I'm smelling a David Duke come back in politics once the KKK splits from the GOP. He is the odd thing, no one knows if the votes exist to change the South Carolina flag. How fucking sad is that?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

In short: no union solider on the battlefield said "Look, there is the flag of those racists - go get em boys".

Verses from the song "Lincoln and Liberty too"

Hurrah for the choice of the nation!
Our chieftain so brave and so true;
We'll go for the great Reformation—
For Lincoln and Liberty too!

We'll go for the son of Kentucky
The hero of Hoosierdom through;
The pride of the Suckers so lucky
For Lincoln and Liberty too!

Our David's good sling is unerring,
The Slaveocrats' giant he slew;
Then shout for the Freedom-preferring
For Lincoln and Liberty too!

We'll go for the son of Kentucky
The hero of Hoosierdom through;
The pride of the Suckers so lucky
For Lincoln and Liberty too!

Come all you true friends of the nation
Attend to humanity's call
Oh aid of the slaves’ liberation
And roll on the liberty ball

We’ll finish the temple of freedom
And make it capacious within
That all who seek shelter may find it
Whatever the hue of their skin.

Success to the old fashioned doctrine
That men are created all free
And down with the power of the despot
Wherever his stronghold may be

They'll find what, by felling and mauling,
Our rail-maker statesman can do;
For the people are everywhere calling
For Lincoln and Liberty too.

Then up with our banner so glorious,
The star-spangled red-white-and-blue,
We'll fight till our Cause is victorious,
For Lincoln and Liberty too!


The problem for would-be revisionists of history is that the players actually in the Civil War knew exactly what they were fighting for and against and wrote it down.

 

[ksen]

tbf the word "racist" isn't in that song

 

[Tom Sawyer]

That song loses some of its meaning when you realize that Liberty was the name of Lincoln's horse, who was very popular at the time.

 

[maxparrish]

The confederate battle flag is a symbol of traitors and enemies of the constitution. It has no business flying over any government building.

You, like many others, love to pick a fight with the 19th century. It rates with a contemporary British rants against the 'traitors' of Colonial America, or those who chose to rant over the British of 1812. It's history...get over it.

 

[ksen]

How many Betsy Ross flags fly over UK government buildings again?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The confederate battle flag is a symbol of traitors and enemies of the constitution. It has no business flying over any government building.

You, like many others, love to pick a fight with the 19th century. It rates with a contemporary British rants against the 'traitors' of Colonial America, or those who chose to rant over the British of 1812. It's history...get over it.

No it doesn't. The Rebellion was the largest act of treason against the nation in our rather short history. The flag was a banner of the military force to wage the Rebellion. Their flag of treason wasn't even a part of their heritage until the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

tbf the word "racist" isn't in that song

No the word Slaveocrats is.