Speed limits & revenue

[Loren Pechtel]

The street they were pulling this stunt on was a 45 mph street.

They were also using a crosswork that at the time I saw it was not be used at all--the only place that it served was closed.

You live in a very dangerous place. Apparently there is no concern for anyone who is not inside a car. It actually sounds more like an urban legend. Why would there be a crosswalk at a location where there is no traffic light or stop sign?

It was a mid-block crosswalk, apparently put there because people were crossing anyway--there were major hotel/casinos on both sides of the street. While the street is high speed at the time of day when people would be using it there would be enough traffic that it was basically stop and go.

However, at the time in question one of the casinos was bankrupt and shuttered--there was absolutely no place to go that was shorter using the crosswalk than walking either direction to a light. Hence nobody was using it except cops for a sting operation.

 

[Bronzeage]

You live in a very dangerous place. Apparently there is no concern for anyone who is not inside a car. It actually sounds more like an urban legend. Why would there be a crosswalk at a location where there is no traffic light or stop sign?

It was a mid-block crosswalk, apparently put there because people were crossing anyway--there were major hotel/casinos on both sides of the street. While the street is high speed at the time of day when people would be using it there would be enough traffic that it was basically stop and go.

However, at the time in question one of the casinos was bankrupt and shuttered--there was absolutely no place to go that was shorter using the crosswalk than walking either direction to a light. Hence nobody was using it except cops for a sting operation.

Seriously? An unprotected crosswalk in mid block on a street with 45 mph speed limit. It certainly makes it easier to measure how far the body was thrown.

If you weren't here to tell me you had seen this with your own eyes, I would call it a bullshit story made up to support an argument with anecdotal evidence.

The highway engineering code of most states are fairly uniform. A crosswalk is put in place to protect pedestrians. A cross walk will only be put in a place where traffic must yield to either a traffic light or a stop sign. The exception to this is a district such as a school campus, where pedestrians always have the right of way and traffic must come to a full stop. These areas must be designated with the appropriate signage.

There used to be a crosswalk at the intersection where my business is located. It was the type where the pedestrian can press a button to stop traffic in all directions. The state decided this traffic light was no longer needed because the intersection did not have enough cross traffic. Before the light was taken down, a crew came out with a large grinder and removed all traces of the crosswalk.

 

[Metaphor]

Doesn't the article indicate that they want traffic to move from local to Expressway to reduce local congestion?

Don't you love the 100% ass-backwards inducement structure?

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doesn't the article indicate that they want traffic to move from local to Expressway to reduce local congestion?

Don't you love the 100% ass-backwards inducement structure?

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

Yeah--as I said, it's about revenue, not about safety.

 

[Nexus]

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

They don't want to move people off the local road they want the money from the toll.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

They don't want to move people off the local road they want the money from the toll.

The toll road was probably sold with very rosy income predictions and they're not showing up.

 

[Tigers!]

Sounds like something that occurred in Melbourne. The Westgate freeway from the top of Westgate bridge to Millers rd, Altona is about 10km long. It is the busiest piece of road in Sth Australia. For about 11 years there were no fatalities and no speed (sorry, safety) cameras. Tragically an accident occurred with 4 fatalities. Within a couple of months there were cameras all along that piece of road.
A Monash Uni researcher from the Road safety division had done an analysis (I wish I could find it again) of fatalities per km per year on Victorian roads. The Westgate Bridge was the safest road in Victoria. There were country roads that had far greater fatalities per km per year and strangely enough do not have cameras on them. The police claim that the resources do not exist to have cameras on those roads. Despite the protestations of police/govt the belief in Victoria is that cameras are first and foremost there to raise revenue.

 

[funinspace]

Don't you love the 100% ass-backwards inducement structure?

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

Yeah--as I said, it's about revenue, not about safety.

Sounds like one wouldn't have any problems if one just didn't flaunt the law, quibble over the rules, and just follow the law/signs as directed. If one doesn't want to be beaten ticketed by the cops, then just follow the rules. Its as simple as that...

The 2 times I've been ticketed, I knew I was breaking the rules.

 

[bilby]

Well there's one surefire way to prevent speeding and red light cameras from being used to raise revenue - simply scrap fines for those offences in favour of custodial sentences.

The current fines in Queensland are as follows:

Less than 13 kilometres per hour (km/h) over the speed limit:	$157 + 1 demerit point.
At least 13km/h but not more than 20km/h over the speed limit:	$235 + 3 demerit points.
More than 20km/h but not more than 30km/h over the speed limit:	$392 + 4 demerit points.
More than 30km/h but not more than 40km/h over the speed limit:	$549 + 6 demerit points.
More than 40km/h over the speed limit:	$1099 + 8 demerit points and 6 month suspension

It would be fairly straightforward to change this to:

Less than 13 kilometres per hour (km/h) over the speed limit:	One day in jail + 1 demerit point.
At least 13km/h but not more than 20km/h over the speed limit:	Three days in jail + 3 demerit points.
More than 20km/h but not more than 30km/h over the speed limit:	Four days in jail + 4 demerit points.
More than 30km/h but not more than 40km/h over the speed limit:	Six days in jail + 6 demerit points.
More than 40km/h over the speed limit:	Eight days in jail + 8 demerit points and 6 month suspension

 

[Nexus]

Sounds like one wouldn't have any problems if one just didn't flaunt the law, quibble over the rules, and just follow the law/signs as directed.

No even if you follow the law you still have the problem of the police slowing your travel by lowering the speed limits for no reason other that revenue generation.

 

[bilby]

Sounds like one wouldn't have any problems if one just didn't flaunt the law, quibble over the rules, and just follow the law/signs as directed.

No even if you follow the law you still have the problem of the police slowing your travel by lowering the speed limits for no reason other that revenue generation.

Really? Do police set speed limits in the US? That's fucked.

Over here, speed limits are set by the government; police merely enforce the limits as gazetted and signposted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well there's one surefire way to prevent speeding and red light cameras from being used to raise revenue - simply scrap fines for those offences in favour of custodial sentences.

The current fines in Queensland are as follows:

Less than 13 kilometres per hour (km/h) over the speed limit:	$157 + 1 demerit point.
At least 13km/h but not more than 20km/h over the speed limit:	$235 + 3 demerit points.
More than 20km/h but not more than 30km/h over the speed limit:	$392 + 4 demerit points.
More than 30km/h but not more than 40km/h over the speed limit:	$549 + 6 demerit points.
More than 40km/h over the speed limit:	$1099 + 8 demerit points and 6 month suspension

It would be fairly straightforward to change this to:

Less than 13 kilometres per hour (km/h) over the speed limit:	One day in jail + 1 demerit point.
At least 13km/h but not more than 20km/h over the speed limit:	Three days in jail + 3 demerit points.
More than 20km/h but not more than 30km/h over the speed limit:	Four days in jail + 4 demerit points.
More than 30km/h but not more than 40km/h over the speed limit:	Six days in jail + 6 demerit points.
More than 40km/h over the speed limit:	Eight days in jail + 8 demerit points and 6 month suspension

Jail is too big a punishment. I do agree with the principle, though--we should not be using fines as punishment because it sets up a situation where the state benefits from crime. Replace fines with community service.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No even if you follow the law you still have the problem of the police slowing your travel by lowering the speed limits for no reason other that revenue generation.

Really? Do police set speed limits in the US? That's fucked.

Over here, speed limits are set by the government; police merely enforce the limits as gazetted and signposted.

The government sets speed limits with revenue in mind.


Yours does similar things, also--you have a contract with a private party over some toll road (a tunnel, perhaps? I don't recall) that specifically says the state can't do anything that cuts the traffic using it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Doesn't the article indicate that they want traffic to move from local to Expressway to reduce local congestion?

Don't you love the 100% ass-backwards inducement structure?

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

You realize how much that'd cost?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Don't you love the 100% ass-backwards inducement structure?

If you want to move people off the local road and on to the expressway, put the toll on the local road!

You realize how much that'd cost?

Just put a toll on the expressway to pay for it.

Simple.

 

[scombrid]

http://hamptonroads.com/2015/10/chesapeake-lower-speed-limit-route-obx-bypasses-tolls

Many on here have called the notion that speed limits are set for revenue rather than safety as crazy.

Here we have a case where it most clearly is being set for revenue, although of a toll road rather than tickets.

I do not agree with your assessment of this case.

The toll road was built to relieve the insane traffic that clogs old 168 when people from up north are trying to get to OBX.

This lowering of the speed limit isn't to make the toll road more profitable, it is to push more traffic off of an over-burdened primary.

This is nothing like a classic revenue speed trap.

Classic speed trap is a police department that is bigger than the local tax base justifies that uses speed ticket revenue to fund itself.

This a case in which the city of Chesapeake has been getting hammered for decades with pass-through traffic and built the toll road to deal with it.

The suggestion to put the toll on the local road puts the cost burden of OBX traffic on locals instead of on the pass-through traffic that is generating the issue in the first place.

 

[arkirk]

The street they were pulling this stunt on was a 45 mph street.

They were also using a crosswork that at the time I saw it was not be used at all--the only place that it served was closed.

You live in a very dangerous place. Apparently there is no concern for anyone who is not inside a car. It actually sounds more like an urban legend. Why would there be a crosswalk at a location where there is no traffic light or stop sign?

You have a point. A crosswalk alone does not a safe crossing make. We have a poorly marked one about five doors down from me. People blow through it with people in the crosswalk. Crosswalks need additional posting that is compelling for people to stop. Yes it is dangerous.

 

[Rhea]

http://hamptonroads.com/2015/10/chesapeake-lower-speed-limit-route-obx-bypasses-tolls

Many on here have called the notion that speed limits are set for revenue rather than safety as crazy.

Here we have a case where it most clearly is being set for revenue, although of a toll road rather than tickets.

I do not agree with your assessment of this case.

The toll road was built to relieve the insane traffic that clogs old 168 when people from up north are trying to get to OBX.

This lowering of the speed limit isn't to make the toll road more profitable, it is to push more traffic off of an over-burdened primary.

This is nothing like a classic revenue speed trap.

Classic speed trap is a police department that is bigger than the local tax base justifies that uses speed ticket revenue to fund itself.

This a case in which the city of Chesapeake has been getting hammered for decades with pass-through traffic and built the toll road to deal with it.

The suggestion to put the toll on the local road puts the cost burden of OBX traffic on locals instead of on the pass-through traffic that is generating the issue in the first place.

I agree. This is exactly what a local government should do, IMHO.
Local taxpayers fund the local road. they should not have to pay for the type of road necessary to handle that much traffic.
A toll road is built with tolls to pay for itself.
Drivers don't initially use it because they have no incentive.
But the locals are STILL paying for road wear and tear that they cannot (and should not) afford.
So lowering the local speed limits provides the incentive.
Now the transient traffic pays for itself, and the local traffic pays for itself.
And in incentive keeps everyone on the road for which they are paying.
Seems like a terrific solution, IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -

No even if you follow the law you still have the problem of the police slowing your travel by lowering the speed limits for no reason other that revenue generation.

Really? Do police set speed limits in the US? That's fucked.

Over here, speed limits are set by the government; police merely enforce the limits as gazetted and signposted.

No, typically the State sets it. Towns have to petition for speed limit changes.

 

[Rhea]

You live in a very dangerous place. Apparently there is no concern for anyone who is not inside a car. It actually sounds more like an urban legend. Why would there be a crosswalk at a location where there is no traffic light or stop sign?

??

To let people get across?
We have lots and lots of these.

 

[arkirk]

You live in a very dangerous place. Apparently there is no concern for anyone who is not inside a car. It actually sounds more like an urban legend. Why would there be a crosswalk at a location where there is no traffic light or stop sign?

??

To let people get across?
We have lots and lots of these.

What I was pointing out is that a crosswalk alone without other compelling posting can be very dangerous indeed. We have a number of them in my town. Recently a few of them have been fitted with flashers and they appear to work really well. I am trying to get that for the one just down the street from me.