St. Louis activists bail out African-American moms - Black Privilege?

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

So someone has been talking about Black Privilege in some other threads. I felt like I wanted to play with this idea of "black privilege" and apply it to something in the news where there was some kind of application to African Americans.

So, first, here is a news story:

Home for Mother's Day: St. Louis activists bail out African-American moms who can’t afford the fees

Whitney Gipson was one of three women bailed out of jail before Mother’s Day thanks to the efforts of St. Louis activists. Expect Us raised nearly $3,000 through an online fundraiser.

Members of Expect Us met with other advocates at the St. Louis Justice Center on Saturday. The event included food, children’s activities and short speeches by local demonstrators and leaders, including Democratic Missouri Rep. Bruce Franks.

Gipson, 26, told a small crowd about her experiences while staying at the city’s two jails.

“All I can say is, they really treat us like we trash in there,” she said.

She said she was accused of property damage and assault after women started an altercation in a sandwich shop. Gipson said she was in jail for 10 days on a $1,000 cash bond, but couldn’t afford to pay. It was her first time in jail. First, she was at the Justice Center.

“We were sleeping on the floors. We were sleeping on top of each other,” Gipson told the group of a few dozen. “There were probably about 12 girls.”

She said the women were brought to the Medium Security Institution, otherwise known as the workhouse, because of overcrowding. There, she said conditions were worse.

“It just stank so bad,” she said. “I didn’t have a bed. I didn't have a mat. I was sleeping on a bed pan for like six days before a trainee woke me up outta my sleep and told me, ‘Oh, you need a mat.’”

She said “mildewed” water and roaches in the living quarters were other things she experienced. A lawsuit was brought against the workhouse last year for inhumane conditions.

Gipson said she was thankful for the financial help to be released from jail and to be with her child.

“I feel like I got a friend. I feel like somebody really care,” she said. “I was telling the girls in jail,.I can’t afford to get out. I mean a $1,000 we all talk about having money, but I don’t have $1,000 cash at all. I don’t have no savings.”

Gipson’s experience is one that resonated with many other black mothers who were in the crowd on Saturday. Before Gipson arrived, event organizers asked women to form a row in front of the jail.

Leaders asked participants to step forward each time they could answer yes to a question about incarceration, including had they or a loved one been in jail. At the end of the exercise a handful of women were left, all of whom were black.

http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post...t-african-american-moms-who-can-t-afford-fees

Second--and here's I think the crux of the issue--does it make sense to call trying to remove harm that inordinately applies to a group, a "privilege?" One may think, well, in this case what about if they had paid money for 2 black ladies and 1 white lady to be bailed out? Maybe? But we don't actually know the criteria used to select the three women or for that matter, look at the exercise in the article--that there appears to be something more than just class, i.e. also race that is going on here.

In any case, some of the examples are about justice, restitution, and fixing consequences to harm, not about privilege which is more unconditional than about suffering. Agree or disagree? All of the examples are about suffering and harm that has come to African Americans. Like at the Starbucks and now this example. These are specific examples of specific examples and not about policies. Please do not bring up polices but instead specific concrete actions.

So, for example, the old white lady at McDonald's who burned her leg with the hot coffee. She suffered and received damages and then McDonald's was hit with extra punitive damages because they did it a lot. No one was calling that White privilege or Senior Citizen privilege.

 

[repoman]

I think that there needs to be a clear dividing line mentally between what people did to be arrested and what their treatment is in jail.

Because there is not, it is tempting to downplay why people are in jail and this backfires once evidence comes out that in fact they really did do the actions to the degree described. So don't try to get sympathy for her being charged, but just for the shitty treatment in jail.

I am not talking about when the charges are trumped up, that is totally different.

Now, the stress of being at the end of the rope financially can increase crazy behavior and get someone in trouble that someone with firm financial grounding won't get into. That is until someone gets to the "fuck you money" level and they already were an asshole.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I guess the real difference is that I think even criminals have rights. Every innocent or guilty person in jail has a story so the stories aren't the focus but instead the unequal percentage of unfair, inhumane treatment. Jail conditions are inhumane but bail itself is unfair to poor people. Basically, if you are rich you go to jail after trial. If you are very poor, you go to jail after charges. Innocence or guilt is irrelevant because the conditions in that phase of trial are inhumane.

Missing from the response, though, was the whole idea of black privilege and whether it's a concept validly applied in this and other thread contexts. I will repeat that I don't think it is. This is because we don't refer to restitution for suffering, especially inordinate suffering because of a group label, as privilege.

 

[Toni]

I think what is missing is the fact that these individuals did not have the wherewithal to come up with $1000 in bail money. Let that sink in for a moment.

And if you are or claim to be a fiscal conservative, please consider the direct cost to the taxpayers of incarcerating these individuals pending trial for low level, non-violent crimes. If you have a functioning brain with higher reasoning skills, consider the additional cost that society bears for these women to be incarcerated which is incurred through the involvement of social services, school systems, and a plethora of other services, the costs (direct and systemic) of a public defender and so on.

For lack of $1000.

 

[Mumbles]

I guess the real difference is that I think even criminals have rights. Every innocent or guilty person in jail has a story so the stories aren't the focus but instead the unequal percentage of unfair, inhumane treatment. Jail conditions are inhumane but bail itself is unfair to poor people. Basically, if you are rich you go to jail after trial. If you are very poor, you go to jail after charges. Innocence or guilt is irrelevant because the conditions in that phase of trial are inhumane.

Missing from the response, though, was the whole idea of black privilege and whether it's a concept validly applied in this and other thread contexts. I will repeat that I don't think it is. This is because we don't refer to restitution for suffering, especially inordinate suffering because of a group label, as privilege.

As importantly, these efforts tend to arise through local groups - both Bmore and DC's Black Mama's Bail Out programs are done through local BLM chapters, the Baltimore Action Legal Team, and so forth. If folks elsewhere want it to happen...well, they should organize locally and get to it.

And yeah, the notion that this in particular is "black privilege" is absurd - if they had such privilege, they would be far less likely to need such efforts to begin with, either due to family wealth, or because they were never arrested to begin with.

 

[Axulus]

The part I don't really get is why are the proceeds for the fundraiser race targeted? Are there no white moms (or latino, asian, american indian, etc) unable to afford $1,000 bail, or are they simply less deserving of being with their children on mothers day? Why not administer the charity in a race neutral manner?

 

[RavenSky]

I think what is missing is the fact that these individuals did not have the wherewithal to come up with $1000 in bail money. Let that sink in for a moment.

And if you are or claim to be a fiscal conservative, please consider the direct cost to the taxpayers of incarcerating these individuals pending trial for low level, non-violent crimes. If you have a functioning brain with higher reasoning skills, consider the additional cost that society bears for these women to be incarcerated which is incurred through the involvement of social services, school systems, and a plethora of other services, the costs (direct and systemic) of a public defender and so on.

For lack of $1000.

^^^ That is the issue - both from the "fiscally conservative" side of it costing taxpayers far more than $1,000 to house and feed the woman in the OP for 10+ days and from the perspective of unequal treatment in our criminal justice system.

 

[Toni]

I think what is missing is the fact that these individuals did not have the wherewithal to come up with $1000 in bail money. Let that sink in for a moment.

And if you are or claim to be a fiscal conservative, please consider the direct cost to the taxpayers of incarcerating these individuals pending trial for low level, non-violent crimes. If you have a functioning brain with higher reasoning skills, consider the additional cost that society bears for these women to be incarcerated which is incurred through the involvement of social services, school systems, and a plethora of other services, the costs (direct and systemic) of a public defender and so on.

For lack of $1000.

^^^ That is the issue - both from the "fiscally conservative" side of it costing taxpayers far more than $1,000 to house and feed the woman in the OP for 10+ days and from the perspective of unequal treatment in our criminal justice system.

Yeah, but they're black. And women. So why should any of the men care? I mean, it's not like they were prostitutes or anything that would serve men's needs.

 

[laughing dog]

The part I don't really get is why are the proceeds for the fundraiser race targeted? Are there no white moms (or latino, asian, american indian, etc) unable to afford $1,000 bail, or are they simply less deserving of being with their children on mothers day? Why not administer the charity in a race neutral manner?

The group raised $3,000 or so which permits it to bail out 3 people with $1,000 bail. I read the story, and despite the headlines, I could not tell if the organization targeted black moms or if they just ended up with black moms. And, of course, we don't the racial distribution of the mothers held in the St. Louis jail.

 

[dismal]

The part I don't really get is why are the proceeds for the fundraiser race targeted? Are there no white moms (or latino, asian, american indian, etc) unable to afford $1,000 bail, or are they simply less deserving of being with their children on mothers day? Why not administer the charity in a race neutral manner?

Well, if you believe in free association (as I do) this isn't a particular problem for you. Bailout whomever you want to bail out.

I can see how those who support laws forcing groups not to discriminate based on race and gender would have a big problem with these groups, however.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The part I don't really get is why are the proceeds for the fundraiser race targeted? Are there no white moms (or latino, asian, american indian, etc) unable to afford $1,000 bail, or are they simply less deserving of being with their children on mothers day? Why not administer the charity in a race neutral manner?

We have serious problems with our Justice system in large part because of Bail Bonds, and Axulus wants to ask 'why just the sisters'?

 

[dismal]

The part I don't really get is why are the proceeds for the fundraiser race targeted? Are there no white moms (or latino, asian, american indian, etc) unable to afford $1,000 bail, or are they simply less deserving of being with their children on mothers day? Why not administer the charity in a race neutral manner?

We have serious problems with our Justice system in large part because of Bail Bonds, and Axulus wants to ask 'why just the sisters'?

So are you saying we don't also have a problem with discrimination based on race and gender?

Or is it that your brain can only process one problem at a time?

 

[Derec]

Missing from the response, though, was the whole idea of black privilege and whether it's a concept validly applied in this and other thread contexts. I will repeat that I don't think it is. This is because we don't refer to restitution for suffering, especially inordinate suffering because of a group label, as privilege.

If you limit "restitution for suffering" to a group of people based on their race and gender that is giving these people a privilege by definition. What would be wrong with these activists helping low-income inmates of all races and both genders equally?

 

[Derec]

Yeah, but they're black. And women. So why should any of the men care?

The issue is not that black women get bailed out, but that only black women get bailed out. Nobody is claiming that black women don't matter, just that they should not matter more than other people.

I mean, it's not like they were prostitutes or anything that would serve men's needs.

I'd much rather a sex worker be bailed out than somebody who assaults people and destroys property. Sex workers and their clients have done nothing wrong, while Gipson certainly has.
Btw: women and couples can and do hire sex workers as well. It's not just us "evil" men.

 

[repoman]

Yeah, but they're black. And women. So why should any of the men care?

The issue is not that black women get bailed out, but that only black women get bailed out. Nobody is claiming that black women don't matter, just that they should not matter more than other people.

I mean, it's not like they were prostitutes or anything that would serve men's needs.

I'd much rather a sex worker be bailed out than somebody who assaults people and destroys property. Sex workers and their clients have done nothing wrong, while Gipson certainly has.

Derec, you should recuse yourself for conflict of interest.

 

[scombrid]

Whitney Gipson was one of three women bailed out of jail before Mother’s Day thanks to the efforts of St. Louis activists. Expect Us raised nearly $3,000 through an online fundraiser.

Wow. Three women and $3000. That black privilege largesse totally eclipses any and all other injustices.

She said she was accused of property damage and assault after women started an altercation in a sandwich shop. Gipson said she was in jail for 10 days on a $1,000 cash bond, but couldn’t afford to pay.

Our civil and criminal penalty structure is pretty messed up eh?. A traffic violation has more relative consequence for a poor person than a felony does for a rich person.

 

[Derec]

Wow. Three women and $3000. That black privilege largesse totally eclipses any and all other injustices.

Injustices like what?

She said she was accused of property damage and assault after women started an altercation in a sandwich shop. Gipson said she was in jail for 10 days on a $1,000 cash bond, but couldn’t afford to pay.

Our civil and criminal penalty structure is pretty messed up eh?. A traffic violation has more relative consequence for a poor person than a felony does for a rich person.

"Property damage and assault" is not a traffic violation. Buy a clue.
And while a rich person might have an easier time coming up with bail even for a felony charge, that is only for pretrial release. If convicted of a felony, a rich man has to go to prison for a while too.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Poor Derec. This thread is a Trigger Perfecta.

She said she was accused of property damage and assault after women started an altercation in a sandwich shop. Gipson said she was in jail for 10 days on a $1,000 cash bond, but couldn’t afford to pay.

Our civil and criminal penalty structure is pretty messed up eh?. A traffic violation has more relative consequence for a poor person than a felony does for a rich person.

And it gets worse. If you can't afford bail, you are much more likely to be tried or plea to a higher charge and face stiffer sentences. So much for equal protection.

 

[Derec]

Poor Derec. This thread is a Trigger Perfecta.

Poor Jimmy. Still doesn't know what "trigger" means. It's not just a general term of abuse to throw at anybody disagreeing with you.

 

[laughing dog]

Injustices like what?

Our civil and criminal penalty structure is pretty messed up eh?. A traffic violation has more relative consequence for a poor person than a felony does for a rich person.

"Property damage and assault" is not a traffic violation.

She is charged with property damage and assault but has not been tried. Which means she ought to be considered innocent until proven guilty. Furthermore, property damage can mean stepping on a sandwich and assault can mean pushing someone. But, what the hey, it is a poor black woman, so let's assume the worst.