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Statehood for Puerto Rico and DC?

Elixir said:
TomC said:
Politesse said:
How much personal expertise is required to count to four??? :confused:
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I'm not terribly impressed with AOC either, but I still think she knows more about Puerto Rican people than you know.
Tom
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I bet she knows more than I do about NYC too. But I know there are 5 boroughs...
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Do you know why though?
Why 5?
What's the history? I don't know of any other city with distinct regions known as boroughs.
What sort of cultural differences are there? Apparently there's lots.

I wouldn't claim to know the answers to any of these questions. I'd need a lot more knowledge of the origins and history of the city. My lack of knowledge also means I don't have firm opinions about their political landscapes. If a group from Staten Island started agitating for SI to become a separate city I don't know what I'd think about that. And since I don't live there I'm uninclined to get sufficiently educated to have a firm opinion.
Tom
 
TomC said:
Elixir said:
I bet she knows more than I do about NYC too. But I know there are 5 boroughs...
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Do you know why though?
Why 5?
What's the history? I don't know of any other city with distinct regions known as boroughs.
What sort of cultural differences are there? Apparently there's lots.

I wouldn't claim to know the answers to any of these questions. I'd need a lot more knowledge of the origins and history of the city. My lack of knowledge also means I don't have firm opinions about their political landscapes. If a group from Staten Island started agitating for SI to become a separate city I don't know what I'd think about that. And since I don't live there I'm uninclined to get sufficiently educated to have a firm opinion.
Tom
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None of that changes the number of boroughs. Or whether or not a referendum vote (or four) has been conducted on the issue.
 
Politesse said:
TomC said:
Elixir said:
I bet she knows more than I do about NYC too. But I know there are 5 boroughs...
Click to expand...

Do you know why though?
Why 5?
What's the history? I don't know of any other city with distinct regions known as boroughs.
What sort of cultural differences are there? Apparently there's lots.

I wouldn't claim to know the answers to any of these questions. I'd need a lot more knowledge of the origins and history of the city. My lack of knowledge also means I don't have firm opinions about their political landscapes. If a group from Staten Island started agitating for SI to become a separate city I don't know what I'd think about that. And since I don't live there I'm uninclined to get sufficiently educated to have a firm opinion.
Tom
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None of that changes the number of boroughs. Or whether or not a referendum vote (or four) has been conducted on the issue.
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It does however raise the question of whether or not any of these referendums reflect the opinions or best outcomes on this particular issue.

I don't see a referendum from a century ago as particularly relevant. I don't see one with 23% turn out particularly relevant. I don't see one with a 52% majority, that ignores some of the major options, as particularly relevant.

I don't care what the outcome is. What I care about is a thoughtful process that results in sufficient consensus to result in a good future for Puerto Rico.

AOC &Co have a plan that sounds a lot better to me than yours.
Tom
 
TomC said:
Politesse said:
None of that changes the number of boroughs. Or whether or not a referendum vote (or four) has been conducted on the issue.
Click to expand...

It does however raise the question of whether or not any of these referendums reflect the opinions or best outcomes on this particular issue.

I don't see a referendum from a century ago as particularly relevant. I don't see one with 23% turn out particularly relevant. I don't see one with a 52% majority, that ignores some of the major options, as particularly relevant.

I don't care what the outcome is. What I care about is a thoughtful process that results in sufficient consensus to result in a good future for Puerto Rico.

AOC &Co have a plan that sounds a lot better to me than yours.
Tom
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I do not object to AOC's plan. That said, it is re-inventing the wheel rather than moving forward with the mandate already provided.

And as with every other previous referendum, the Congress has a preferred outcome, a continued territorial status. They will likely decide whether the next referendum is "legitimate" or not based on whether or not it results in their preferred outcome, unless the consensus is overwhelming. Just as they did on all other occasions to date. I am no expert on San Juan, but Washington DC I know quite well. They will not be adjudicating this matter based on a "thoughtful process", and you and I both know it. Indeed, you mention AOC but her involvement, in and of itself, draws battle lines across Congress that have nothing to do with Puerto Rico or Puerto Ricans. Republicans do not vote for bills put forth by AOC, it would be political suicide. To a regular Fox News viewer, appearing to support AOC is essentially indistinguishable from joining the Октябрьская революция. Meanwhile. Progressives must vote for her bills. And centrist Democrats have to do a bit of calculus.
 
Mikaela Lefrak on Twitter: "Congressman Comer (R-KY) ..." / Twitter
Congressman Comer (R-KY) just called the D.C. statehood movement "a key part of the radical leftist agenda to reshape America" during the U.S. House hearing on statehood bill #HR51.

Comer says the Founding Fathers anticipated all of today's arguments for D.C. statehood, and rejected them. That's not what a lot of historians say. Listen to episode 2 of the @wamu885 podcast 51st for more: 51st: What Hamilton Got Wrong About D.C. | WAMU

D.C. Delegate @EleanorNorton is up now. This is her bread and butter. She rejects Comer's statement that statehood is unconstitutional, points out that D.C. pays more federal taxes than 22 states, and says D.C.'s population of 712,000 is larger than that of two states.

Norton says her great-grandfather came to D.C. after being enslaved on a Virginia plantation.

Congressman Hice (R-GA) says a state of D.C. would benefit because the federal government would keep paying for its prison system. That's not quite how it'd work. We cover the prison system on an episode of 51st too: 51st: From Prisons To Weed, How District Life Is Different | WAMU

In his argument against statehood, Hice says D.C. would be the only state without an airport or a car dealership.

First time I've heard that argument.....

Mayor Bowser is up now. I’ve got to hop off, but tune into the next @nprpolitics pod to hear more about this hearing!
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Charles Allen on Twitter: "@mikafrak He also said we've got a smaller population than Columbus, OH. Guess what, so do the entire states of Wyoming, Vermont, North Dakota, South Dakota, & Alaska. But they each have 2 elected Senators each for their residents." / Twitter
 
Rep. Marie Newman D-IL-03 had some fun at the expense of Rep. Hice's arguments.
Marie Newman on Twitter: "Ah yes, who can forget our Founding Fathers replacing “No taxation without representation” with the historic “car dealership clause.”

Great argument, @GOP!" / Twitter

Mark Joseph Stern on Twitter: "The Heritage Foundation’s Zack Smith, arguing against DC statehood, says DC residents “already impact the national debate” because members of Congress see their yard signs while driving to work. (vid link)" / Twitter

The Heritage Foundation is a right-wing think tank, or more precisely, ideology mill. Founded in 1973, it proposed an early version of Romneycare / Obamacare in 1989.

Mark Joseph Stern on Twitter: "Here is Republican Rep. Jody Hice arguing against D.C. statehood because it doesn’t have a landfill, airport, or car dealership (actually, it does have a car dealership). (vid link)" / Twitter

What difference is that supposed to make? In the Founders' day, the only air travel was early hot-air balloons, and the closest thing to a car dealership was a wagonmaker's shop.

Mark Joseph Stern on Twitter: "One of the reasons Republicans dress up their arguments against D.C. statehood in legalese is because otherwise they sound racist, partisan, or painfully stupid. (link)" / Twitter
noting
The Constitution isn’t the obstacle to D.C. statehood. - Slate

Mark Joseph Stern on Twitter: "Here is Republican Rep. Glenn Grothman arguing that D.C. should not get statehood because it has insufficient manufacturing, agriculture, mining, and drilling. (vid link)" / Twitter

It would be easy to build factories in DC, and do indoor farming there.

Mark Joseph Stern on Twitter: "Rep. Kweisi Mfume corrects Heritage’s Zack Smith, who claimed that Walter Fauntroy opposed statehood.

“We took a train, he and I ... from New York back down to Washington with each stop having a rally for D.C. statehood. I think you probably want to check your facts on that.” (vid link)" / Twitter
 
The bills:

H.R.51 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Washington, D.C. Admission Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

S.51 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Washington, D.C. Admission Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

The law includes the complicated internal boundary that was in previous versions, an internal boundary for marking off Federal buildings like the White House and the Congress building and the Supreme Court building.

Also, the number of House members will increase by 1 from 435 to 436 to accommodate the state's Rep.

Rep. Norton, Eleanor Holmes [D-DC-At Large] (Introduced 01/04/2021) - introduced at the beginning of this session of Congress

The bill has 215 cosponsors, 202 original. They are all Democrats, nearly every Democrat in the House.

Sen. Carper, Thomas R. [D-DE] (Introduced 01/26/2021)

The bill has 41 cosponsors, 38 original. They are all Democrats, with the exception of Bernie Sanders.
 
Full House scheduled to vote Thursday on D.C. statehood - apparently April 22.

The bills:
H.R.51 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Washington, D.C. Admission Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
S.51 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Washington, D.C. Admission Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
his bill provides for admission into the United States of the state of Washington, Douglass Commonwealth, composed of most of the territory of the District of Columbia. The commonwealth shall be admitted to the Union on an equal footing with the other states.

The Mayor of the District of Columbia shall issue a proclamation for the first elections to Congress of two Senators and one Representative of the commonwealth.

The bill applies current District laws to the commonwealth and continues pending judicial proceedings.

The commonwealth (1) shall consist of all District territory, with specified exclusions for federal buildings and monuments, including the principal federal monuments, the White House, the Capitol Building, the U.S. Supreme Court Building, and the federal executive, legislative, and judicial office buildings located adjacent to the Mall and the Capitol Building; and (2) may not impose taxes on federal property except as Congress permits.

District territory excluded from the commonwealth shall be known as the Capital and shall be the seat of the federal government. The bill maintains the federal government's authority over military lands and specified other property.

The bill provides for expedited consideration of a joint resolution repealing the Twenty-third Amendment to the Constitution, which provides for the appointment of electors of the President and Vice President.

The bill continues certain federal authorities and responsibilities, including regarding employee benefits, agencies, courts, and college tuition assistance, until the commonwealth certifies that it is prepared to take over the authorities and responsibilities.

The bill establishes the Statehood Transition Commission to advise the President, Congress, and District and commonwealth leaders on the transition.
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DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton gave this speech in honor of the DC-statehood bill when she introduced it on Jan 4:
Congressional Record Extensions of Remarks Articles | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

In the Senate, the bill was introduced by Tom Carper, D-DE, on Jan 26, and it now has 44 cosponsors, 38 original. The next cosponsorship dates are Feb 2, Feb 24, Mar 18, Mar 24, Apr 13 (two). The two Georgia Senators are among the laggards. All the cosponsors are Democrats.

The remaining D and I Senators are Mark Kelly D-AZ, Angus King I-ME, Joe Manchin D-WV, Jeanne Shaheen D-NH, Kyrsten Sinema D-AZ.


In the House, the bill has 216 cosponsors, 202 original. This is nearly every Democrat in the House. Three of the original cosponsors have resigned to join the Biden Admin: Cedric Richmond D-LA-02, Marcia Fudge D-OH-11, Deb Haaland D-NM-01, and a fourth one has died: Alcee Hastings D-FL-20. So 212 present Democrats have cosponsored it, out of the 218 present House Democrats.

On Apr 16, the bill was discharged from the House Armed Services, Energy & Commerce, Judiciary, and Rules Committees. About the remaining committee, "Reported (Amended) by the Committee on Oversight and Reform. H. Rept. 117-19, Part I." But in the original, that statement contains a bad link.
 
Biden administration backs D.C. statehood, urges 'swift' action as House to vote on bill
noting
H.R. 51 – Washington, D.C. Admission Act - SAP-H.R.-51.pdf
Here is the full statement:
STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY
H.R. 51 – Washington, D.C. Admission Act
(Del. Norton, D-DC, and 216 cosponsors)

The Administration strongly supports H.R. 51, the Washington, D.C. Admission Act. For far too long, the more than 700,000 people of Washington, D.C. have been deprived of full representation in the U.S. Congress. This taxation without representation and denial of self-governance is an affront to the democratic values on which our Nation was founded. H.R. 51 rights this wrong by making Washington, D.C. a state and providing its residents with long overdue full representation in Congress, while maintaining a Federal District that will continue to serve as our Nation’s seat of government.

Establishing the State of Washington, Douglass Commonwealth as the 51st state will make our Union stronger and more just. Washington, D.C. has a robust economy, a rich culture, and a diverse population of Americans from all walks of life who are entitled to full and equal participation in our democracy. The Administration looks forward to working with the Congress as H.R. 51 proceeds through the legislative process to ensure that it comports with Congress’ constitutional responsibilities and its constitutional authority to admit new states to the Union by legislation. The Administration calls for the Congress to provide for a swift and orderly transition to statehood for the people of Washington, D.C.
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House to vote on D.C. statehood April 22; clergy rally in support - The Washington Post
It's to be voted on today in the House. Though it will likely pass the House, it will be a much harder fight in the Senate. It may be hard to pass DC statehood there without weakening or ending the filibuster.
 
22 Republican Attorneys General Pen Letter Opposing DC Statehood
“Its enactment would be antithetical to our representative democratic republic and it would constitute an unprecedented aggrandizement of an elite ruling class with unparalleled power and Federal access compared to the remaining fifty states of the Union,” they wrote in the letter.

At a congressional hearing last month, a scholar from the right-wing Heritage Foundation made a similar argument, saying that D.C. residents already have outsized influence in national debates because they can put up yard signs that are then seen by members of Congress.

...
The letter comes as Republicans across the country have ramped up their attacks on D.C. statehood, at times deploying new — and sometimes unconventional — arguments. At a recent House committee hearing, Republican lawmakers pushed back against statehood by citing D.C.’s alleged lack of car dealerships (which we totally have) and warning of a possible shortage of parking spaces for staffers that would result. Before that, a U.S. senator declared that D.C. does not have enough loggers and miners to qualify as a state.
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Ruling elite? As opposed to the oligarchs who finance the Republican Party?

The letter itself: DC Statehood letter as sent (02539672xD2C78).PDF
The states:
AL, AR, AZ, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MO, MS, MT, ND, NE, OH, OK, SC, SD, TX, UT, WV

It provoked a response:
Press Release: AG Racine Leads 24 AGs in Refuting Misguided Arguments From 22 Republican AGs Against DC Statehood – TheDCLine.org
Karl Racine is the AG of DC.

The letter itself: https://oag.dc.gov/sites/default/files/2021-04/DC-Statehood-Letter.pdf
The states:
CA, CO, CT, DE, HI, IA, IL, MA, MD, ME, MI, MN, NC, NJ, NM, NV, NY, OR, PA, RI, VA, VT, WA

23 state AG's supporting and 22 state AG's opposing - 5 remaining
 
What are these Republotards saying about Puerto Rico?

I always thought the solution to DC is let them declare a citizenship in any state or district they wished. They could turn Wyoming blue.
 
Aren't those the same Republican AGs who tried to overturn the election?

Um, yeah, their opinion is worth shit.
 
SLD said:
What are these Republotards saying about Puerto Rico?

I always thought the solution to DC is let them declare a citizenship in any state or district they wished. They could turn Wyoming blue.
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Now that would be a delightful compromise. If they split themselves strategically, they could turn Wyoming AND North Dakota AND a few other states blue. It doesn’t have to beat the population, only the margin...
 
Acyn on Twitter: "Mace: D.C. wouldn’t even qualify as a singular congressional district.. (vid link)" / Twitter
Rep. Nancy Mace claimed that DC is not populous enough to deserve a Congressional district, let alone statehood.

Rep. Don Beyer on Twitter: "DC has a larger population than the state of Wyoming, represented by the Congresswoman standing next to you." / Twitter
Rep. Liz Cheney, also in the picture.

DC statehood: House passes bill that would make Washington, DC, 51st state - CNNPolitics
Didn't have enough details, so I went to clerk.house.gov

Roll Call 132 | Bill Number: H. R. 51
Party Y N P nv
Democratic 216 0 0 2
Republican 0 208 0 4
Independent 0 0 0 0
Total 216 208 0 6

The vote was entirely on partisan lines.
 
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