Statehood for Puerto Rico and DC?

[steve_bank]

The tired old mantra we are empire. If we were empire we would be occupying PR, Iraq, and other places. Post WWII with atomic weapons and an untouched country and powerful navy we were distinctly un-empire.

PR is not a colony, neater is the Virgin Islands.

 

[just_me]

Did PR ever get her finances under control? If not shouldn't that be looked at with emphasis on getting that straightened out. I would rather send money down there to help out, than use it to buy new war toys for the pentagon.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Did PR ever get her finances under control? If not shouldn't that be looked at with emphasis on getting that straightened out. I would rather send money down there to help out, than use it to buy new war toys for the pentagon.

Why not do both? PR needs to dig a big ditch for a new sewer system? Try a fuel air bomb.

 

[just_me]

Did PR ever get her finances under control? If not shouldn't that be looked at with emphasis on getting that straightened out. I would rather send money down there to help out, than use it to buy new war toys for the pentagon.

Why not do both? PR needs to dig a big ditch for a new sewer system? Try a fuel air bomb.

OK. What the flip is all this about?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Did PR ever get her finances under control? If not shouldn't that be looked at with emphasis on getting that straightened out. I would rather send money down there to help out, than use it to buy new war toys for the pentagon.

Why not do both? PR needs to dig a big ditch for a new sewer system? Try a fuel air bomb.

OK. What the flip is all this about?

Bombs make holes. Sewers need holes. That's synergy.

 

[just_me]

OK. What the flip is all this about?

Bombs make holes. Sewers need holes. That's synergy.

I'm ou of here.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Out

 

[Jokodo]

Are you guys seriously discussing who'd most benefit from giving voting rights to those millions of your citizens who are excluded?

And you pride yourself to live in like the oldest-best-strongest-most stable-what not democracy?

If you're a democracy, your citizens get to vote. All of them. If you have citizens who are barred from voting, even if it's "just" 1% of the population, you're living in an oligarchy, not a democracy. It really is as simple as that.

It is a bit more complicated.

It is quite as simple.

Why not join N Ireland with Ireland?

This might be an apt comparison if the Northern Irish had no voting rights within the UK or if the Republic of Ireland were proposing to annex it without giving them voting rights. This isn't so and is not going to happen. Indeed, other democratic and pseudo-democratic countries are apt to give franchise to populations outside their factual control to symbolise their aspirations more than to disenfranchise populations (officially) under their Control.

Not everyone in PR wants to be a state or a territory. Puerto Rico for the Puerto Ricans.

I think the best solution is independence with a treaty of cooperation and defense.

That may be the best solution. Until then, voting rights should be a no-brainer.

 

[Starr]

I have no problem with PR becoming a State (or independent), but I think it's current status is unacceptable. All these inconclusive referendums need to stop. The Federal Government should tell PR to crap or get off the pot: 1 refereundum, Yes or No, whether or not to apply for Statehood, with the understanding that No, means independence. No more damn "Keep status quo" option available. The details of PR/US relations can be worked out after such a vote, such are whether they want a CFA with us.

Our other territories are a little trickier. They are frankly too small for me to want them to become States. Our Senate is already unbalanced enough due to small States without adding even more. I think perhaps all other territories should be made independent with CFA (of course, the US needs to actually start holding up it's end of the bargain better with our Compact partners, but that is a whole other issue....)

As for D.C., no to Statehood, yes to devolvement back to Maryland. Federal buildings would still be on Federal land, but everything else should be returned to Maryland. The original point of D.C. is no longer relevant in the modern era. In the beginning the States were equally powerful, if not more powerful, than the Federal government, and it could reasonably be said that the State hosting the capital would have undue influence. Now however, the Federal government has significantly more power than the States, and Maryland would quickly be disabused of any notion of trying to manipulate the Feds because they control the capital city.

 

[ronburgundy]

I have no problem with PR becoming a State (or independent), but I think it's current status is unacceptable. All these inconclusive referendums need to stop. The Federal Government should tell PR to crap or get off the pot: 1 refereundum, Yes or No, whether or not to apply for Statehood, with the understanding that No, means independence. No more damn "Keep status quo" option available. The details of PR/US relations can be worked out after such a vote, such are whether they want a CFA with us.

Our other territories are a little trickier. They are frankly too small for me to want them to become States. Our Senate is already unbalanced enough due to small States without adding even more. I think perhaps all other territories should be made independent with CFA (of course, the US needs to actually start holding up it's end of the bargain better with our Compact partners, but that is a whole other issue....)

As for D.C., no to Statehood, yes to devolvement back to Maryland. Federal buildings would still be on Federal land, but everything else should be returned to Maryland. The original point of D.C. is no longer relevant in the modern era. In the beginning the States were equally powerful, if not more powerful, than the Federal government, and it could reasonably be said that the State hosting the capital would have undue influence.

The Federal Buildings and the land between them could easily be designated a Federal district, while the rest of DC and its 700,000 residents be established as it's own state, which would have a greater population than multiple existing states. Maryland already has a greater population than 31 states with around 10 times the population of 5 current states yet the same number of Senators. Adding another 700,000 people (as many people as those other states have) to Maryland is unfair and unequal representation, not only for the residents of Maryland but the urban residents throughout the US who share common interests and concerns that differ from rural residents who are only 20% of the population yet control the Senate, due the number of sparsely populated states.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Think twice, folks. Puerto Ricans have their eyes on one thing & one thing only. They want our paper towels. Statehood? You'd hear the giant sucking sound of our paper towels headed south. Shit, their official motto is Living on God's Bounty. Doesn't that just about say it all?

 

[ZiprHead]

Out

Maybe he's French.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The Federal Buildings and the land between them could easily be designated a Federal district, while the rest of DC and its 700,000 residents be established as it's own state, which would have a greater population than multiple existing states.

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

 

[J842P]

The Federal Buildings and the land between them could easily be designated a Federal district, while the rest of DC and its 700,000 residents be established as it's own state, which would have a greater population than multiple existing states.

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

What would and argument for statehood make? I don't really have a bone to pick in this fight, but it all seems totally arbitrary to me.

 

[dismal]

The Federal Buildings and the land between them could easily be designated a Federal district, while the rest of DC and its 700,000 residents be established as it's own state, which would have a greater population than multiple existing states.

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

What would and argument for statehood make? I don't really have a bone to pick in this fight, but it all seems totally arbitrary to me.

A state is what we say it is. With "we" meaning previous congresses.

Or in the case of new states the current congress. They could make my back yard a state if they chose. Though since it's currently part of an existing state they'd also need the approval of that state's legislature.

 

[J842P]

What would and argument for statehood make? I don't really have a bone to pick in this fight, but it all seems totally arbitrary to me.

A state is what we say it is. With "we" meaning previous congresses.

Or in the case of new states the current congress. They could make my back yard a state if they chose. Though since it's currently part of an existing state they'd also need the approval of that state's legislature.

Presumably Jason understands this, but has opinions about what makes a an argument for statehood justified, or valid, or whatever.

Clearly, these are social constructs.

 

[Rhea]

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

What would and argument for statehood make? I don't really have a bone to pick in this fight, but it all seems totally arbitrary to me.

Jason - this is a good question the answer to which is necessary to support your claim. Maryland really has no residual claim after all the change to that land. So why would those people, with a very different statehood culture be appropriately subsumed by Maryland politics?

 

[ronburgundy]

The Federal Buildings and the land between them could easily be designated a Federal district, while the rest of DC and its 700,000 residents be established as it's own state, which would have a greater population than multiple existing states.

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

It isn't that fact alone. It is also the fact that unlike every other major US city, DC is not currently part of any state, nor has ever been part of any state since the United States officially existed. Maryland ceded the land for the creation of DC before the official start of the US government. It makes no more sense to make DC part of Maryland than make Delaware part of Maryland.

Making DC a state makes a great deal of sense, especially since it also helps solves the problem of the gross imbalance of Senate representation of people who live in densely populated, ethnically diverse industrial areas versus those who live in sparsely populated ethnically homogeneous rural areas.

 

[lpetrich]

There are several cities in the US that have populations greater than some states. That alone does not an argument for statehood make. Devolving back into Maryland really is the most sensible solution.

It isn't that fact alone. It is also the fact that unlike every other major US city, DC is not currently part of any state, nor has ever been part of any state since the United States officially existed. Maryland ceded the land for the creation of DC before the official start of the US government. It makes no more sense to make DC part of Maryland than make Delaware part of Maryland.

The District of Columbia originally included land from both Maryland and Virginia, with the Virginia part being returned to that state in 1846. So returning the rest of DC to Maryland might be a good idea, except perhaps for the central part of DC with the Congress building and the White House and the like.

 

[dismal]

It makes no more sense to make DC part of Maryland than make Delaware part of Maryland.

Making DC a state makes a great deal of sense

This is just flinging about arbitrary assertions. There is no inherent sense in our state borders. They are the product of a series of historical accidents and irrelevancies.

Take a look at the map of Connecticut and try to explain in any meaningful way how "it makes sense". What "makes sense" about that little notch in the top of the state?