Study Shows White Privilege Among Poor.

[fromderinside]

... the Principle of the Conservation of Privilege(PCP). The PCP dictates that for every gain in advantage by a non-white person, a white person loses an equal amount. There are many white men who feel their privilege has been taken away and given to someone who has a genetically predetermined darker pigmentation.

How can we apply principles of a zero sum game to a system in which productivity and supply are shown to increase? If one gains it can be said one gains because productivity is up increasing supply which may actually raise all boats.

Empalthy - entropy can be greater than one in a system where productivity exists.

Order-disorder isn't the proper analog.*

*_{^{Oh, damn. You already know that. You're just playing games.....}}

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Poor white poor guys. What are we going to do with them?

Treat them the same we treat poor guys of other races. Not assume they had some big opportunity they squandered. Not assume any given one of them has had an easier life than any given poor black guy, just based on race alone, just because of group averages.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you simply fail to undo an existing situation you are not discriminating.

As my amplified setup illustrates the existing situation exists because of intentional discrimination.

Sine we can prove the existing situation was intentionally set we can say you are discriminating.

You aren't showing that anyone is acting with an intent to hinder blacks and hispanics.

Yes, whites tend to move out when a bunch of hispanics move it--this is actually sensible behavior. The problem is a flood of ESL students will harm the schools. The white kids don't want to see their kids education harmed, they move to where there are better schools.

The key factor here is not racism, but language.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they believe that. Of course they believe that. I find it hard to believe you've never exchanged words with a conservative before. Yes, they believe having less skin pigment makes them intellectually and morally superior. Yes, they believe that the only reason people with more skin pigment get jobs at all is because of the "head start" the international "PC Police" conspiracy gives them in taking jobs away from more deserving superior white people, and that's why white people are the ones who are really being oppressed and persecuted.

I find it very hard to believe that you have never encountered these sentiments before.

Only from other white guys. One of the problems is the Principle of the Conservation of Privilege(PCP). The PCP dictates that for every gain in advantage by a non-white person, a white person loses an equal amount. There are many white men who feel their privilege has been taken away and given to someone who has a genetically predetermined darker pigmentation.

No. You're simply assuming it's privilege. Furthermore, you are the one who seeks to discriminate--you want to make decisions based on race while we favor color-blind decisions.

 

[Bronzeage]

Poor white poor guys. What are we going to do with them?

Treat them the same we treat poor guys of other races. Not assume they had some big opportunity they squandered. Not assume any given one of them has had an easier life than any given poor black guy, just based on race alone, just because of group averages.

What a great idea, unless you happen to be a white guy sleeping on a bench. Now you want to push him down the street to another neighborhood, where a passing police car will stop and the officers will beat him. That sucks.

As my amplified setup illustrates the existing situation exists because of intentional discrimination.

Sine we can prove the existing situation was intentionally set we can say you are discriminating.

You aren't showing that anyone is acting with an intent to hinder blacks and hispanics.

Yes, whites tend to move out when a bunch of hispanics move it--this is actually sensible behavior. The problem is a flood of ESL students will harm the schools. The white kids don't want to see their kids education harmed, they move to where there are better schools.

The key factor here is not racism, but language.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, they believe that. Of course they believe that. I find it hard to believe you've never exchanged words with a conservative before. Yes, they believe having less skin pigment makes them intellectually and morally superior. Yes, they believe that the only reason people with more skin pigment get jobs at all is because of the "head start" the international "PC Police" conspiracy gives them in taking jobs away from more deserving superior white people, and that's why white people are the ones who are really being oppressed and persecuted.

I find it very hard to believe that you have never encountered these sentiments before.

Only from other white guys. One of the problems is the Principle of the Conservation of Privilege(PCP). The PCP dictates that for every gain in advantage by a non-white person, a white person loses an equal amount. There are many white men who feel their privilege has been taken away and given to someone who has a genetically predetermined darker pigmentation.

No. You're simply assuming it's privilege. Furthermore, you are the one who seeks to discriminate--you want to make decisions based on race while we favor color-blind decisions.

What do you mean "we", white man?

Maybe you're right. Maybe I am just a superior specimen of manhood and everything I have is due to an innate superiority. It could be my only mistake was in assuming it might be due to the privilege, which turned out to be all in my imagination.

Of course, being born in an English speaking home probably helped. No, there I go again.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Are you saying that people are discriminating when they don't locate a company with jobs in a booming area vs an area that is in decline and that has lots of "minorities"? If so, that is a big reach. Please rephrase so that I can follow you......

Actually I am saying both.

1. there is discrimination because there are no jobs in the area
2. there is discrimination because no one comes into the area to offer jobs to ones obviously qualified to perform them: male, strong, coordinated, can dance. (oops)

Wow. I don't know white people can live with all the white guilt they must feel!

 

[Bronzeage]

Actually I am saying both.

1. there is discrimination because there are no jobs in the area
2. there is discrimination because no one comes into the area to offer jobs to ones obviously qualified to perform them: male, strong, coordinated, can dance. (oops)

Wow. I don't know white people can live with all the white guilt they must feel!

It's known as the white man's burden.

 

[James Brown]

The Lowest Difficulty Setting in Action

I noted a couple of years ago that Straight White Male is the lowest difficulty setting in the game called life (in particular the Western civilization variant of it). This annoyed many a straight white male, who didn’t see his life as being particularly “easy.” Noting that “lowest difficulty” is not the same as “easy” did not assuage this agitation. And well, I can understand it: If you genuinely think your life sucks — and it may! — it may be hard to imagine that you still get advantages other folks don’t.

<snip: cites Baltimore study>

Which is to say: Even as much as your life blows, straight white dude, the black dude in exactly the same situation is likely to have it worse. And not because of anything he (or you) did. Just because it’s the way things are.

 

[Bronzeage]

The Lowest Difficulty Setting in Action

I noted a couple of years ago that Straight White Male is the lowest difficulty setting in the game called life (in particular the Western civilization variant of it). This annoyed many a straight white male, who didn’t see his life as being particularly “easy.” Noting that “lowest difficulty” is not the same as “easy” did not assuage this agitation. And well, I can understand it: If you genuinely think your life sucks — and it may! — it may be hard to imagine that you still get advantages other folks don’t.

<snip: cites Baltimore study>

Which is to say: Even as much as your life blows, straight white dude, the black dude in exactly the same situation is likely to have it worse. And not because of anything he (or you) did. Just because it’s the way things are.

Here is a good analogy of white privilege, drawn from the Tales of the Suburbs. When I attended high school, computers were characters in movies and drafting was done with a pencil. My deskmate in drafting class was another white kid. We sat at a double drafting table and performed the same assignment, day after day. We both started with a big sheet of white paper and ended up with some sort of plans for a machine part. The difference in his work and mine was plain to see. His paper was still crisp white, while mine had a dull glaze of graphite. His lines were crisp and the perfect width. His lettering looked like it came off a printing press. I was good, but only good for a high school student with 12 weeks experience at a drafting table.

My friend was good enough to sit in any drafting room for an engineering company. His work was professional level. It helped that his father was an architect and had been drawing for his father since he was eleven years old. I was competing with a guy who had five years more experience than me. It wasn't completely one sided. My father was a Civil Engineer and when I was eleven, I learned to operate an radial arm saw. I have since learned this is the most dangerous power tool in the shop. I still have all my fingers, so my father taught me well.

If my buddy and I had both applied for the same job in an engineer's drafting room, there is no doubt he would be hired, even though I might be qualified, if only barely. Given time, I would have been just as good, or better, but that's seldom a hiring criteria.

 

[doubtingt]

The Lowest Difficulty Setting in Action

Here is a good analogy of white privilege, drawn from the Tales of the Suburbs. When I attended high school, computers were characters in movies and drafting was done with a pencil. My deskmate in drafting class was another white kid. We sat at a double drafting table and performed the same assignment, day after day. We both started with a big sheet of white paper and ended up with some sort of plans for a machine part. The difference in his work and mine was plain to see. His paper was still crisp white, while mine had a dull glaze of graphite. His lines were crisp and the perfect width. His lettering looked like it came off a printing press. I was good, but only good for a high school student with 12 weeks experience at a drafting table.

My friend was good enough to sit in any drafting room for an engineering company. His work was professional level. It helped that his father was an architect and had been drawing for his father since he was eleven years old. I was competing with a guy who had five years more experience than me. It wasn't completely one sided. My father was a Civil Engineer and when I was eleven, I learned to operate an radial arm saw. I have since learned this is the most dangerous power tool in the shop. I still have all my fingers, so my father taught me well.

If my buddy and I had both applied for the same job in an engineer's drafting room, there is no doubt he would be hired, even though I might be qualified, if only barely. Given time, I would have been just as good, or better, but that's seldom a hiring criteria.

Except you are white, so its actually an example of how everything you call "white privilege" isn't actually white privilege, because that label implies a privilege that comes solely from having white skin and thus should be held equally by all people with white skin.
Your example is of having the benefit of parents who are in a skilled professession. The fact that variance in having this benefit has a rather modest but highly unreliable correlation with race doesn't make the benefit in itself racial.
Should we call heart disease a "black disease" and cancer a "white disease" just because of a modest statistical association where one race is more likely to have it, even though there are many members of both races that have it and many who do not?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Lowest Difficulty Setting in Action

Here is a good analogy of white privilege, drawn from the Tales of the Suburbs. When I attended high school, computers were characters in movies and drafting was done with a pencil. My deskmate in drafting class was another white kid. We sat at a double drafting table and performed the same assignment, day after day. We both started with a big sheet of white paper and ended up with some sort of plans for a machine part. The difference in his work and mine was plain to see. His paper was still crisp white, while mine had a dull glaze of graphite. His lines were crisp and the perfect width. His lettering looked like it came off a printing press. I was good, but only good for a high school student with 12 weeks experience at a drafting table.

My friend was good enough to sit in any drafting room for an engineering company. His work was professional level. It helped that his father was an architect and had been drawing for his father since he was eleven years old. I was competing with a guy who had five years more experience than me. It wasn't completely one sided. My father was a Civil Engineer and when I was eleven, I learned to operate an radial arm saw. I have since learned this is the most dangerous power tool in the shop. I still have all my fingers, so my father taught me well.

If my buddy and I had both applied for the same job in an engineer's drafting room, there is no doubt he would be hired, even though I might be qualified, if only barely. Given time, I would have been just as good, or better, but that's seldom a hiring criteria.

Except this example actually proves our point.

It's not skin color. It's not money. It's what's passed from parent to child.

As such, it's not something that society can address without a level of intrusiveness that society would find totally unacceptable.

 

[Bronzeage]

Here is a good analogy of white privilege, drawn from the Tales of the Suburbs. When I attended high school, computers were characters in movies and drafting was done with a pencil. My deskmate in drafting class was another white kid. We sat at a double drafting table and performed the same assignment, day after day. We both started with a big sheet of white paper and ended up with some sort of plans for a machine part. The difference in his work and mine was plain to see. His paper was still crisp white, while mine had a dull glaze of graphite. His lines were crisp and the perfect width. His lettering looked like it came off a printing press. I was good, but only good for a high school student with 12 weeks experience at a drafting table.

My friend was good enough to sit in any drafting room for an engineering company. His work was professional level. It helped that his father was an architect and had been drawing for his father since he was eleven years old. I was competing with a guy who had five years more experience than me. It wasn't completely one sided. My father was a Civil Engineer and when I was eleven, I learned to operate an radial arm saw. I have since learned this is the most dangerous power tool in the shop. I still have all my fingers, so my father taught me well.

If my buddy and I had both applied for the same job in an engineer's drafting room, there is no doubt he would be hired, even though I might be qualified, if only barely. Given time, I would have been just as good, or better, but that's seldom a hiring criteria.

Except this example actually proves our point.

It's not skin color. It's not money. It's what's passed from parent to child.

As such, it's not something that society can address without a level of intrusiveness that society would find totally unacceptable.

Our point? Who's in this consortium if our?

I credit my mother and father for my skin color. Otherwise, I might have been born a poor black child.

 

[doubtingt]

Except this example actually proves our point.

It's not skin color. It's not money. It's what's passed from parent to child.

As such, it's not something that society can address without a level of intrusiveness that society would find totally unacceptable.

Our point? Who's in this consortium if our?

I credit my mother and father for my skin color. Otherwise, I might have been born a poor black child.

Your classmate was born white too, yet he had a major privilege over you, yet since your both white it could not be a "white" privilege but rather advantage in opportunity (one he had to put forth effort to take advantage of) that only sometimes but not reliably (and in this case did not) correspond to skin color.

 

[fromderinside]

Your classmate was born white too, yet he had a major privilege over you, yet since your both white it could not be a "white" privilege but rather advantage in opportunity (one he had to put forth effort to take advantage of) that only sometimes but not reliably (and in this case did not) correspond to skin color.

Sure it did. Even though raggity dressed whites on skid row are harassed by police well dressed whites are not. The same isn't true for blacks on skid row or most any other place for that matter.

 

[Bronzeage]

Our point? Who's in this consortium if our?

I credit my mother and father for my skin color. Otherwise, I might have been born a poor black child.

Your classmate was born white too, yet he had a major privilege over you, yet since your both white it could not be a "white" privilege but rather advantage in opportunity (one he had to put forth effort to take advantage of) that only sometimes but not reliably (and in this case did not) correspond to skin color.

As I said, it is an analogy, which is a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

This example was an illustration of a situation where two people who had very similar education, yet one was born into a home which gave them an advantage over the other. I chose an analogy where both people have the same skin color in order to better illustrate the advantageous aptitude a person may gain from their background.

Actually, I'm starting waiver on this white privilege thing. Maybe there is no such thing and I truly am a superior person. One more post telling me I did it all on my own ought to do it.

 

[The Paul]

So is that a complete non sequitur to stop people from discussing a topic you're uncomfortable with, or are you pretending you're not smart enough to understand that a phenomenon can predate a term used to describe it?

Take a deep breath. I'm just curious how the term entered the lexicon. Maye you shouldn't assume so much. I'm not uncomfortable with discussing it. Nor, am I claiming it doesn't exist. The extent to which it exists and the measurement of it are worthy of discussion.

Alright, my bad. I'm pretty used to seeing what I'm fairly certain are dishonest arguments and attempts at derail in response to discussion of white privilege. Switching topics to the relatively recent origin of the exact term seemed like it was in that vein.

Since it wasn't, sorry.

 

[The Paul]

Since there were a total of 8-ish black people living in Saskatchewan until a few years ago, that hasn't really been the theme of racism around here.

Now, being native on the other hand... I've been in multiple workplaces where an acceptable topic of discussion during break is what a bunch of useless, lazy, drunks natives are. It was like a safe, ice-breaker topic, like the weather or something. Like the new guy says to the manager, "I'm looking forward to my first check, but it pisses me off that I'm gonna be paying for those fucking natives to sit around drinking all day, now."

Dude just tosses it out there out of the blue. No fear that there might be any kind of repercussions for expressing an opinion like that, because obviously everyone agrees, so what's the risk?

I worked with a group of white people who ridiculed a native woman about her alleged drinking problem until she fled to the bathroom crying and I'm pretty sure they subsequently tried to convince the manager she was in there because she was hung over.

But you know... if some asshole stuck a handgun in his belt, went hunting, got in a fight, and gunned down an unarmed native kid there's no way the police would just shrug their shoulders and assume it must have been self defense, so I can't even imagine how high the racism is turned up in other parts of the world.

But someone saw a white homeless guy once, so racism's over now.

 

[doubtingt]

Your classmate was born white too, yet he had a major privilege over you, yet since your both white it could not be a "white" privilege but rather advantage in opportunity (one he had to put forth effort to take advantage of) that only sometimes but not reliably (and in this case did not) correspond to skin color.

As I said, it is an analogy, which is a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

This example was an illustration of a situation where two people who had very similar education, yet one was born into a home which gave them an advantage over the other. I chose an analogy where both people have the same skin color in order to better illustrate the advantageous aptitude a person may gain from their background.

But what it actually clarifies is the fact that what you and the OP study call "white privilege" are these exact same kind of differences the vary greatly between people of the same race and only covary modestly with race itself, thus it isn't a privilege due to or reliably related to race.
Having a father in a skilled trade where he is around to teach it to you is a benefit, and while a higher % of white kids would have that benefit than blacks kids, there are many in both racial groups who don't have it and some that do. It could contribute to average difference in outcomes between racial groups, but to refer to the benefit itself as a "white privilege" is absurd and misleading at best.
One of the main factors accounting for the outcomes in the OP study was whether the father was around. Is having anything better than an deadbeat absentee father a "white privilege"? IF not, then the OP study shows no evidence of white privilege.

Actually, I'm starting waiver on this white privilege thing. Maybe there is no such thing and I truly am a superior person. One more post telling me I did it all on my own ought to do it.

Do you think you are a truly superior person to every single white person that you are wealthier than? It cannot be white privilege, so in your world of false dichotomies, it must be that you are just a superior person to everyone you are doing better than. In a rational world, there are other alternatives, such as you being the recipient of countless benefits and random luck that are not themselves about race, even when some of those benefits have modest but unreliable correlations with race.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except this example actually proves our point.

It's not skin color. It's not money. It's what's passed from parent to child.

As such, it's not something that society can address without a level of intrusiveness that society would find totally unacceptable.

Our point? Who's in this consortium if our?

I credit my mother and father for my skin color. Otherwise, I might have been born a poor black child.

The example doesn't show skin color mattering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your classmate was born white too, yet he had a major privilege over you, yet since your both white it could not be a "white" privilege but rather advantage in opportunity (one he had to put forth effort to take advantage of) that only sometimes but not reliably (and in this case did not) correspond to skin color.

As I said, it is an analogy, which is a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

This example was an illustration of a situation where two people who had very similar education, yet one was born into a home which gave them an advantage over the other. I chose an analogy where both people have the same skin color in order to better illustrate the advantageous aptitude a person may gain from their background.

Actually, I'm starting waiver on this white privilege thing. Maybe there is no such thing and I truly am a superior person. One more post telling me I did it all on my own ought to do it.

But it still supports our position--the key factor in your example is what skills they got from their parents.

 

[Toni]

As I said, it is an analogy, which is a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

This example was an illustration of a situation where two people who had very similar education, yet one was born into a home which gave them an advantage over the other. I chose an analogy where both people have the same skin color in order to better illustrate the advantageous aptitude a person may gain from their background.

Actually, I'm starting waiver on this white privilege thing. Maybe there is no such thing and I truly am a superior person. One more post telling me I did it all on my own ought to do it.

But it still supports our position--the key factor in your example is what skills they got from their parents.

What is supported is that those who have a position of power, authority, wealth, privilege are able to convey such to their children. In the US, that's been white people until very recently when affirmative action and other programs increased access to education and good jobs for women, people of color, etc.