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Subsidy

What she will probably go to her grave without ever having grasped about her intended targets is that she was projecting onto them, too.
My apology was sincere.
I know. So was "the nasty hypocrite Republican rich-boys and their poor rural fan-boy sycophants". When you're ready to make a sincere apology to them as well, then there will be a reason for people to give you credit for your sincere apology to fast.

Go ahead and make some comments about the actual points I raised, they are relevant to the OP.
I disagree; and it doesn't matter. I was talking to fast, not to you. If he thinks any of your comments are relevant to whether a cost benefit analysis in favor of the collective good justifies the harm to the individual when a subsidy financially harms an individual for the sake of a purported collective good, I'm happy to discuss your comments with him. But I don't share his infinite patience with people whose stock in trade is libel against those who disagree with them.
 
My apology was sincere.
I know. So was "the nasty hypocrite Republican rich-boys and their poor rural fan-boy sycophants". When you're ready to make a sincere apology to them as well, then there will be a reason for people to give you credit for your sincere apology to fast.

Go ahead and make some comments about the actual points I raised, they are relevant to the OP.
I disagree; and it doesn't matter. I was talking to fast, not to you. If he thinks any of your comments are relevant to whether a cost benefit analysis in favor of the collective good justifies the harm to the individual when a subsidy financially harms an individual for the sake of a purported collective good, I'm happy to discuss your comments with him. But I don't share his infinite patience with people whose stock in trade is libel against those who disagree with them.

It's not libel to call a hypocrite a hypocrite, or a sycophant a sycophant.

If the cap fits...
 
It's not libel to call a hypocrite a hypocrite, or a sycophant a sycophant.

If the cap fits...
Well, if it's stereotyping season, it's said the Irish will do anything for the Gaelic language except speak it. Thank you for contributing to the widespread perception that the Left will do anything for the poor except respect them.
 
If (through a subsidy) an individual is financially harmed for the sake of a purported collective good, does a cost benefit analysis in favor of the collective good justify the harm to the individual?
The intuitions you've expressed about this are pretty sensible; but I think your focus on financial subsidies and financial harm isn't essential to the problem. And as the responses you've been getting make abundantly plain, that focus just tends to trigger people's superstitions about money, superstitions that are pandemic in our culture. So I suggest looking at the broader question of whether benefit to others justifies harming an individual. And the quick answer is: yes, sometimes it does, when the harm to the individual is small enough and the benefit to others is great enough -- but not simply by a calculus of total happiness. Rather, it's a question of where to draw the line. The right answer isn't the extremes of utilitarianism or libertarianism but a difficult balancing act between them. There's a paper by an MIT professor arguing the nuances of this question that I think everyone should read; Wikipedia calls it the most widely reprinted essay in all of contemporary philosophy. There's no money involved; but the issues raised are substantively the same.
 
If (through a subsidy) an individual is financially harmed for the sake of a purported collective good, does a cost benefit analysis in favor of the collective good justify the harm to the individual?
The intuitions you've expressed about this are pretty sensible; but I think your focus on financial subsidies and financial harm isn't essential to the problem. And as the responses you've been getting make abundantly plain, that focus just tends to trigger people's superstitions about money, superstitions that are pandemic in our culture. So I suggest looking at the broader question of whether benefit to others justifies harming an individual. And the quick answer is: yes, sometimes it does, when the harm to the individual is small enough and the benefit to others is great enough -- but not simply by a calculus of total happiness. Rather, it's a question of where to draw the line. The right answer isn't the extremes of utilitarianism or libertarianism but a difficult balancing act between them. There's a paper by an MIT professor arguing the nuances of this question that I think everyone should read; Wikipedia calls it the most widely reprinted essay in all of contemporary philosophy. There's no money involved; but the issues raised are substantively the same.
I read the paper in its entirety. Very thought provoking.
 
Hm.. A much quoted paper, but I'm not sure how relevent it is here. It's mainly dealing with harm to others, and whether that is ever justified, but I'm not convinced there is a parallel.

Situation 1:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, and Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

Situation 2:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, but has to pay back 1$, while Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour, but has to pay back 20$.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

I'm not seeing any possible construction of this problem that would lead to Bobby being harmed more than Alf, and yet that appears to be the basis for the arguement over subsidy. Can anyone clarify?
 
Hm.. A much quoted paper, but I'm not sure how relevent it is here. It's mainly dealing with harm to others, and whether that is ever justified, but I'm not convinced there is a parallel.

Situation 1:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, and Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

Situation 2:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, but has to pay back 1$, while Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour, but has to pay back 20$.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

I'm not seeing any possible construction of this problem that would lead to Bobby being harmed more than Alf, and yet that appears to be the basis for the arguement over subsidy. Can anyone clarify?
Situation 1: no
Situation 2: yes (quite possibly, but not necessarily)

In situation 2, Bobby has to pay back a lot more than Alf both dollar-wise and percentage-wise. That he nets more is a different matter, unless possibly if they were both government employees.
 
Hm.. A much quoted paper, but I'm not sure how relevent it is here. It's mainly dealing with harm to others, and whether that is ever justified, but I'm not convinced there is a parallel.

Situation 1:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, and Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

Situation 2:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, but has to pay back 1$, while Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour, but has to pay back 20$.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

I'm not seeing any possible construction of this problem that would lead to Bobby being harmed more than Alf, and yet that appears to be the basis for the arguement over subsidy. Can anyone clarify?
Situation 1: no
Situation 2: yes (quite possibly, but not necessarily)

In situation 2, Bobby has to pay back a lot more than Alf both dollar-wise and percentage-wise. That he nets more is a different matter, unless possibly if they were both government employees.

Why is it a different matter?

You seem to suggest that the critical point is not what either of them get as net income, but what elements of that income or loss is linked to the government. I'm not seeing how that makes a moral difference...
 
Situation 1: no
Situation 2: yes (quite possibly, but not necessarily)

In situation 2, Bobby has to pay back a lot more than Alf both dollar-wise and percentage-wise. That he nets more is a different matter, unless possibly if they were both government employees.

Why is it a different matter?

You seem to suggest that the critical point is not what either of them get as net income, but what elements of that income or loss is linked to the government. I'm not seeing how that makes a moral difference...
A difference in gross pay for the same kind of civilian work is morally permissible.
 
Why is it a different matter?

You seem to suggest that the critical point is not what either of them get as net income, but what elements of that income or loss is linked to the government. I'm not seeing how that makes a moral difference...
A difference in gross pay for the same kind of civilian work is morally permissible.

Why is that? If we assume there is actually some kind of morality at work here, why a government worker's production be worth less than a civilian worker's production?

What moral principle is at work here?
 
A difference in gross pay for the same kind of civilian work is morally permissible.

Why is that? If we assume there is actually some kind of morality at work here, why a government worker's production be worth less than a civilian worker's production?

What moral principle is at work here?
Not necessarily less. I'm not denying what it may appear that I am--just limiting the assertion. There probably are reasons that justify differences in gross pay for same type government work. If one wants to argue that, ceterus paribus, government employees of the same skill-set and experience ought to be paid similarly, I have no counter argument, but if one wants to argue the same for civilians, then I'll search for a reasonable objection.

Meanwhile, the justification in the given example of taking more money dollar-wise and percentage-wise seemed based on a disparity of gross income leading to one party having a greater net income--as if the net effect rendered no harm to the person who paid more. I'm not considering the gross income disparity (in civilian cases). Suppose a 10% tax burden is justifiable for the former yet only a 15% tax burden is justifiable for the latter. Given that, a 20% tax burden is unjustified for the latter, so the latter person is harmed despite having a greater net income, yet somehow, it's suggested that the gross income disparity nullifies it. I don't buy it.
 
Hm.. A much quoted paper, but I'm not sure how relevent it is here. It's mainly dealing with harm to others, and whether that is ever justified, but I'm not convinced there is a parallel.

Situation 1:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, and Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

Situation 2:
Alf and Bobby work making bicycles. Society is so arranged that Alf gets paid 10$ an hour, but has to pay back 1$, while Bobby gets paid 100$ an hour, but has to pay back 20$.
Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

I'm not seeing any possible construction of this problem that would lead to Bobby being harmed more than Alf, and yet that appears to be the basis for the arguement over subsidy. Can anyone clarify?
Situation 1: no
Situation 2: yes (quite possibly, but not necessarily)

In situation 2, Bobby has to pay back a lot more than Alf both dollar-wise and percentage-wise. That he nets more is a different matter, unless possibly if they were both government employees.

Situation 1:
Alf and Bobby work making horses. Alf the farmer does it by growing alfalfa; Bobby the blacksmith does it by making plows and scythes and stuff that Alf uses, as well as horseshoes for the horse breeder's customers. Due to the amount of human food people are willing to trade for horse feed, Alf, like the other hay growers, works nearly all the time; he can only take about 3 weeks of leisure time a year. Bobby, like the other blacksmiths, trades plows and horseshoes and stuff to other people for food; people like iron stuff so much they'll trade a day's food for a horseshoe and months of food for a plow; as a result, blacksmiths can take about 30 weeks of leisure time a year. Bobby only goofed off 8 weeks last year; consequently so many people have promised to feed him in exchange for the stuff he's already made for them that he could eat for a year before he'd have to work again. Carl the carter, who promised him a ton of food, has offered him a horse instead, so Bobby starts riding into town every day and takes some classes. (He's hoping he'll meet a girl who'll fall madly in love with him before she has a chance to find out how dirty blacksmiths are most of the time.)

Question: Is either Alf or Bobby being harmed by the situation?

Situation 2:
Same as situation 1, except on his way over to Carl's stable to get a horse, Bobby gets kidnapped by the Society of Music Lovers, who drag him off (crossing a corner of Alf's field and crushing two day's production of alfalfa) and plug him into the circulatory system of a famous unconscious violinist. The SML hold Bobby prisoner for 39 weeks while the violinist recovers from his illness (getting food for Bobby from Carl) and then they let him go. At that point Carl doesn't owe Bobby a horse any more. So girlfriendless Bobby goes home and spends 13 weeks getting reacquainted with his hand, and then he goes back to making tools for Alf and Carl.

Question 1: Was Bobby harmed more than Alf by the SML?

Question 2: Assuming Bobby was NOT harmed more, how many more weeks a year would Alf have to goof off in order for the SML to have harmed him as little as they harmed Bobby?
 
I think my comprehension skills have gone out the window. Lord have mercy Bomb!

Yeah, not getting it either. If nothing else, the entire point of the original example was to show that there is no seperate category of harm for taxes as opposed to income disaprity. If you're ignoring that, I don't see what you're getting at.
 
We need to consider the justification for a progressive tax system. There are those who think it's an application of the Willie Sutton principle. Willie Sutton was a career bank robber. When someone asked why he robbed banks, the answer was, "Because that's where the money is."

This dovetails with the other common belief that all taxes are a form of armed robbery.

The problem with this kind of toddler social reality is that it's totally bogus. A toddler thinks anything in his hand is his property, without regard to the vast care system his parents instituted to insure his safety and security. Governments are created to establish social order, so people can accumulate wealth, without undue worry that someone will simply walk in and take all their stuff. My meager accumulation is protected by a glass window. It's not much, but the rule of law in my neighborhood makes it fairly secure. It would be easy to steal, but not so easy to enjoy the proceeds of the theft because the police will soon be on the job. I can go about my business of getting more stuff, without spending a lot on walls and locks.

Look at any Medieval castle and consider how much of the monarch's wealth went into a building which existed solely so he could keep whatever was left over after paying for the castle.

It's expensive to maintain social order and very inefficient to try to create one's own order. Suppose a man is so poor, he has nothing more than what he carries in a sack. His only risk is when he puts the sack down. It's easy to guard a sack. He doesn't really need a lot of social order. If he had bigger pockets, he might not even need the sack.

What does a very wealthy man need, if he is to keep his wealth? It will take more than a sack or big pockets. He could build a castle, but it's more efficient to live in a place where the government provides an army to protect the borders, a police force to chase burglars, a transportation infrastructure to move his stuff around, a school system to produce people capable of counting his stuff for him, and the list goes on and on. A wealthy man is the one who really needs all the stuff government does.

It's simple pragmatism. If anarchy becomes the norm, who loses? The wealthy man, or the man with a sack? On an individual basis, the Sack Man would be better off if he could loot the rich man's house. As counterintuitive as it seems, it is in the rich man's interest to pay high taxes, because he purchases social order, which allows him to keep what's left over. If Sack Man were interested only in his own welfare, he would be in favor of a regressive tax system which weakened government and made it more likely that looters could redistribute the wealth.

It may seem as if the wealthy pay more than their share, but the non-toddler reality is they consume more than their share.
 
Why is that? If we assume there is actually some kind of morality at work here, why a government worker's production be worth less than a civilian worker's production?

What moral principle is at work here?
Not necessarily less. I'm not denying what it may appear that I am--just limiting the assertion. There probably are reasons that justify differences in gross pay for same type government work. If one wants to argue that, ceterus paribus, government employees of the same skill-set and experience ought to be paid similarly, I have no counter argument, but if one wants to argue the same for civilians, then I'll search for a reasonable objection.

I don't see why private employees and public employees shouldn't to be paid similarly for the same work (including civillians).

Meanwhile, the justification in the given example of taking more money dollar-wise and percentage-wise seemed based on a disparity of gross income leading to one party having a greater net income--as if the net effect rendered no harm to the person who paid more. I'm not considering the gross income disparity (in civilian cases).

Um.. Why not? What's the difference in moral terms between an income of 1$ and a income of 2$, 1$ of which has to be paid in tax?

Would it change anything if, rather than taking income, income tax was taken directly from the employer and you never saw or heard about the extra cash in the first place?
 
I think my comprehension skills have gone out the window. Lord have mercy Bomb!
Sorry. Here's the executive summary. You wrote "Suppose a 10% tax burden is justifiable for the former yet only a 15% tax burden is justifiable for the latter. Given that, a 20% tax burden is unjustified for the latter, so the latter person is harmed despite having a greater net income, yet somehow, it's suggested that the gross income disparity nullifies it. I don't buy it." You are correct not to buy it.

Yeah, not getting it either. If nothing else, the entire point of the original example was to show that there is no seperate category of harm for taxes as opposed to income disaprity. If you're ignoring that, I don't see what you're getting at.
"Ignoring that"?!? The entire point of my variation is to exhibit the absurd implications of the assumption that there is no separate category of harm for taxes as opposed to income disparity. No, your example doesn't show that there is no separate category of harm for taxes as opposed to income disparity; it merely insinuates that there isn't.
 
Maybe I should take a go at this from another angle. It may add some clarity. We, as individuals, make decisions in our lives--decisions that have consequences, either immediate consequences to our financial lives or consequences that ultimately have an effect on it in some way. Either way, it's decisions we make (emphasis on "we"). Yes, not being born into a billionaire family most often would have a significant impact on where we eventually wind up, and it's certainly not a level playing field out here in this ole world, but I firmly believe that the wide disparity of income between the average Joe's has a lot to do with the cumulative effect of their decisions. A person with the right mindset can and does overcome many of the barriers to success if they have a track record of making smart decisions. Yes, so many factors can come into play, but there's a difference between the whiner who cries foul (justly so or otherwise) and ventures not to bravely tackle the obstacles before them and the person who makes the decisions and does the things conducive for a better outcome.

If you have a job making less than someone else with the same skills and experience, maybe you caved to the pressure of negotiating your salary because you were just so happy to even have a job whereas the other person didn't. If you have budgeted wisely, saved a nest egg and choose to settle with where you're at instead of pursuing better opportunities, then maybe that's an unforeseen effect of an inferior mindset. I have respect for people who put forth the effort to succeed, and when they wind up making five times what others make, even with less education and experience despite their gender or race or whatever excuse is readily used by those that complain (justly or otherwise), I, for one, do not cry foul.

I brought up the term "harm" before, but perhaps a better term is "negative impact". People tend to weigh the pros and cons before judging whether something is beneficial or harmful; it's a post evaluative term. I'm using it in a pre-evaluative sense such that there is both benefit and harm (or better pros and cons). Let me illustrate. The local fire department has somehow managed to secure funds from the county who collect funds through taxing its residents. Am I being harmed? Well, in the post-evaluative sense, perhaps not, but there most certainly is a negative effect. It's partly being paid for with my dollars. It negatively effects me. Yes, it also has a positive effect, and yes, the net effect might be such that the pros outweigh the cons, and so people would say I'm benefitting instead of saying that I'm being harmed, but what I'm saying is that despite that, there is a negative effect. So, perhaps it's poor word choice on my part to use the word harm as I have been.

When one enters into a work arrangement with an employer, he has no obligation to make sure everyone with the same experience, knowledge and skill are paid equally. Some think otherwise, I understand, but I don't think that. That's between the worker and the employer.

So, here I am, living in society and working. Low and behold, society can't seem to function all too well without my support. Okay, they're taxing me. Okay, I'm good with that. But, it's a negative. See, not necessarily harmful, as the positive things may outweigh the negative things. Yet, there are negative things, and the government has a duty to minimize it. So no, the government shouldn't pay unreasonable wages in carrying out their function when they have a duty to minimize the negative impact on tax payers. Civilian employers have no such duty.
 
Hey Bomb, how would you reconcile repeated individual justifications for small tax increases with a cumulative unjust collective total tax burden? For instance, suppose a tax burden of 70% of earned income is unjust. Eight instances of justified 10% tax burdens would exceed what's just.

It seems to me that all these so-called justified tax burdens ought to be increasingly more difficult to justify, as it ought to not only consider the details of each individual issue but also include the cumulative effect on tax payers.
 
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