Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?

[barbos]

The two bolded statements are incompatible.

I seem to recall someone around here talking about how following the rules was important, or something. Like the rules for calling a referendum, and the like. Rules that keep Alaska or Hawaii from simply calling an ad-hoc referendum and seceding from the USA to join Canada or Japan. Rules that say that when part of a neighboring nation calls an illegal referendum, it's not an invitation to roll tanks and send illegally-dressed troops in to help the minority secede.

At least, I'm pretty sure someone was using 'follow the rules' as a justification for police brutality. I guess 'the rules' only apply to situations where you agree with the rules, eh?

I admit that strictly speaking referendum was illegal, but it's not for US to call, because US broke the rule first by threatening Yanukovoch not to follow rules in dealing with "protesters". US supported violent and illegal protest, which they themselves would have squashed with overwhelming force had it happened in US.

 

[lpetrich]

I honestly think there are times when we need hawks in power. Right now is not one of those times.

We certainly don't need appeasers in power either. That didn't work out very well the last time.

Yes, Neville Chamberlain. A part of his infamous appeasement deal was leaving out the Soviet Union, but the next year, Joseph Stalin responded by agreeing to divide up eastern Europe between Germany and the Soviet Union, while leaving out western Europe. Thus turning the tables.

What we need is to show a united front; which is difficult to do when you A) have Americans expressing isolationists sentiments (sentiments which always, frustratingly, seem to flare up right when it seems like they might get called on for something a little more serious than bombing a much weaker country),

Like the "America First" movement in the early years of World War II ( America First Committee).

and B) have populist xenophobic/anti-eu parties and politicians in Europe "inexplicably" voicing support for Russia (I say inexplicably, even though it's now increasingly clear that many of them receive rather substantial amounts of money from Russia).

So instead of supporting the far left, this time they support the far right. So they don't unite to defend Europe against the barbarian hordes from the East as well as those from the South.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Who has in the last 20 years been expanding more and engaging in conflicts worldwide, Russia or NATO/USA?

I see no US border changes.

And I see a badly hurt bear trying to reassert itself by military force.

 

[barbos]

Who has in the last 20 years been expanding more and engaging in conflicts worldwide, Russia or NATO/USA?

Borders of USA have not changed since 1970. NATO is not a country so its "expansion" is hardly the same thing as Russia's invasion. I'm not sure whether NATO's member countries have annexed more territory combined, but I'm guessing they haven't.

No, US just brings chaos without change or respecting borders.
Speaking of which, changing some borders would make world better.

 

[Ford]

Speaking of which, changing some borders would make world better.

Everyone gets to be Russian now! Congratulations Western Nazis, you are now under the rule of benevolent sexy man Putin! World is now better because of President of Russia for life!

 

[Davka]

Speaking of which, changing some borders would make world better.

Everyone gets to be Russian now! Congratulations Western Nazis, you are now under the rule of benevolent sexy man Putin! World is now better because of President of Russia for life!

Is nyet is problem for change all of world to Russia, we are always the having of best place for living!

 

[laughing dog]

I admit that strictly speaking referendum was illegal, but it's not for US to call, because US broke the rule first by threatening Yanukovoch not to follow rules in dealing with "protesters". US supported violent and illegal protest, which they themselves would have squashed with overwhelming force had it happened in US.

When was the last time the US squashed an illegal protest with overwhelming force?

 

[Ford]

I admit that strictly speaking referendum was illegal, but it's not for US to call, because US broke the rule first by threatening Yanukovoch not to follow rules in dealing with "protesters". US supported violent and illegal protest, which they themselves would have squashed with overwhelming force had it happened in US.

When was the last time the US squashed an illegal protest with overwhelming force?

Um...hello?


Did you miss the US, NATO, and CIA troops that were parachuted into Ukraine to thwart the righteous will of the oppressed Russians yearning to be free from the fascists who stopped the humanitarian and in no way military aid that attempted to reach Ukraine from peaceful Russia?

 

[tupac chopra]

The thing I find interesting that even though that Western Media is pretty much unanimously against Russia, people in the West are not, it's really 50-50. It seems they don't yet agree with propaganda.

"Propaganda"?

So you think Putin's naked aggression and illegal invasion is "propaganda"?

I definitely think that is propaganda. Definitely.

Putin has a much as possible tried to find peaceful solutions, on the other hand the USA is willing to fight in the Ukraine 'down to the last Ukrainian".

I haven't seen any aggression from Putin. Yes he did secure Crimea so a referendum could be held, but we must remember that a violent racist coup had taken place in Kiev.

 

[tupac chopra]

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was formed to counter the Soviet Union during the Cold War,

Although the quote you provide below only partially backs this up and gives two more very important reasons.

The first NATO Secretary General, Lord Ismay, stated in 1949 that the organization's goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down."

Nato has given control of Europe to America.

 

[tupac chopra]

I honestly think there are times when we need hawks in power. Right now is not one of those times.

What you need is someone who has common sense and not completely ignorant of the history.

Well said. All the idiots in Washigton have given us is increased chance of a nuclear war.
We now have the two major nuclear powers who in a very short time have gone from being "partners" to "enemies".
Not only that but we have the USA which has launched pre emptive strikes and not been held accountable.
So Russia must be considering that the USA may launch a pre-emptive strike on Russia, so maybe it's better for Russia to launch first.

 

[tupac chopra]

Russia took something back which should have never been taken from them in the first place.
And they did not even take it, it left Ukraine fair and square.

They took something or not? If they took something then it was annected, that is what an invasion is.

A referendum was held and the mostly Russian population voted to go with Russia. The alternative was to go with a racist government in Kiev that had come to power in a coup backed by the USA.

 

[tupac chopra]

Probably the part where you're still making this absurd claim.

Barbos, are you Russian? Because damn!

The Empire is Crumbling, That is Why it Needs War

When I visit a barbershop in Beirut or Amman, and am asked ‘where are you from?’ (It used to be a painfully confusing and complex question to answer, just a few years ago), I now simply reply: “Russia,” and people come and hug me and say, “Thank you.”

It is not because Russia is perfect. It is not perfect – as no country on Earth could or should be. But it is because it is standing once more against the Empire, and the Empire has brought so many horrors, so much humiliation, to so many people; to billions of people around the world… and to them, to so many of them, anyone who is standing against the Empire, is a hero. This I heard recently, first hand, from people in Eritrea, China, Russia, Palestine, Ecuador, Cuba, Venezuela, and South Africa, to name just a few places.

And that is why the Empire is now ‘in such a hurry’, unwilling to wait any longer, trying to provoke Russia, to bring it, metaphorically speaking, into yet another open epic battle, like the one that was fought in ancient times, on the thick ice, by Alexander Nevski.

 

[Juma]

They took something or not? If they took something then it was annected, that is what an invasion is.

The precedent was set in Kosovo.
A referendum was held and the mostly Russian population voted to go with Russia. The alternative was to go with a racist government in Kiev that had come to power in a coup.

That vote was performed after russia already had annected! And there 80000 new registrations of russian voters immidiately before the vote.

 

[tupac chopra]

The precedent was set in Kosovo.
A referendum was held and the mostly Russian population voted to go with Russia. The alternative was to go with a racist government in Kiev that had come to power in a coup.

That vote was performed after russia already had annected! And there 80000 new registrations of russian voters immidiately before the vote.

Do you have a source for either of those claims?
But anyway, most of the population was Russian, and a racist coup government had come to power in Kiev. The first thing this racist government did was ban the Russian language!!!

Do you really think that a mostly Russian population would have wanted to side with a group that had just banned the Russian language?

 

[barbos]

I admit that strictly speaking referendum was illegal, but it's not for US to call, because US broke the rule first by threatening Yanukovoch not to follow rules in dealing with "protesters". US supported violent and illegal protest, which they themselves would have squashed with overwhelming force had it happened in US.

When was the last time the US squashed an illegal protest with overwhelming force?

Well, Occupy This and That was kinda squashed. And US has had a string of quite a few violent standoffs between federal government and different religious wackos.
Then there is an issue of molotov cocktails. Did you know that it's a very long prison term In US?
It is considered terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and any policemen will shoot you dead the moment he sees you with it. Same is in Europe. You never see it Europe anymore.
So there is a bit of double standards when US warns legitimate ukrainian president Yanukovich not to harm these "protesters" throwing molotov cocktails. If it were US, that maidan thing would have ended within a day (no offense to Ferguson)

 

[Juma]

That vote was performed after russia already had annected! And there 80000 new registrations of russian voters immidiately before the vote.

Do you have a source for either of those claims?

Of course: Source: http://www.svt.se/nyheter/varlden/bakgrund-viktiga-datum-i-ukrainakrisen

So you dont know the timeline of the events? The vote was performed six months after the russian annection!

And that 80000 new voters (with russian passportd) was registered at the day of the vote) has been confirmed by the voting commisionary Michail Malysjev through TASS.

And: no, the russian language has not been banned. (but the ukrainian language actually was before the fall of sovjet)

 

[Jayjay]

That vote was performed after russia already had annected! And there 80000 new registrations of russian voters immidiately before the vote.

Do you have a source for either of those claims?
But anyway, most of the population was Russian, and a racist coup government had come to power in Kiev. The first thing this racist government did was ban the Russian language!!!

Do you really think that a mostly Russian population would have wanted to side with a group that had just banned the Russian language?

They had not "banned" Russian language. There was a bill in parliament that was never implemented, to repeal a language law that had only been in effect for two years. But this was vetoed by the interim president, so in practice nothing had changed. The 2012 allowed Ukrainian oblasts to elevate minority languages to status of "regional language" to be used in official capacity, but actually in Crimea Russia was not declared as such at the time anyway.

The language issue was just a convenient tool for Russian propaganda.

 

[barbos]

And: no, the russian language has not been banned.

They did try to ban it, but that guy (what's his name?) who was temporary president at the time had enough sense to put a veto on it but it was too late, people got pissed off.

(but the ukrainian language actually was before the fall of sovjet)

Nope, it was banned before soviets during Tsarism very long time ago. By the time soveits got to power Russian was well established as an official language and ukrainian was reduced to the country side (which was nevertheless significant majority) Funny thing is, all famous ukrainian writers from the past were writing in russian, this is a major inconvenience for ukrainian nationalists Russian propagandists like to troll ukrainian nationalists about that
I mean these idiots recently tried to ban literature in russian, russian side said "Great, now you banned [list of pretty much all great ukrainian writers]"

Soviets were pretty liberal with all national languages, russian was official and you needed it to be able to talk to everybody, so all more less big cities in national republics spoke russian, but in villages you could find people not speaking it at all. As I said soviets had no problem with minority languages, germans spoke german just fine.

Now with all these ukrainian nationalists trying to ban russian but they have no choice but to use it in Universities because there is simply no technical literature in ukrainian, and really you can't translate into it because you would have to start from scratch inventing/borrowing new words and the only place to borrow is russian or polish but engineers and scientists in general will revolt and are not interested in that at all. So this thing will never happen. Having said that, it does not mean they will stop trying.

Another funny thing about war on russian is that after soviet union collapse all republics started to expel russian, changing family names back to national standards from russian version etc. But then some republics got significant worker migrations to Russia and they started to change their names back to soviet era style and inviting russian teachers to teach russian Whether you like it or not but russian will persist in former Soviet Union for some while.

 

[barbos]

The language issue was just a convenient tool for Russian propaganda.

It sure was and still is. It does not mean it was not major part of legitimate piss-off which led to this mess.
The thing is, if you have a bunch of old people who have no intention nor capacity to learn "official" language, you better not to piss them off with any sudden moves. Ukrainian nationalists are idiots.

Speaking of tools, language is certainly a tool in baltic states used to prevent russian population from democratic process. I mean they have a bunch of potential voters who they know damn well are too old to learn official language but who will vote more less "russian" on any dividing issue so what's the solution? lets make language a citizenship requirement