Swedish Social Democratic anti-semitism

[Derec]

Neither does Israel, by the same token.

Maybe as far as disputed territories go, but not in Israel proper.

Jerusalem is claimed by Israel as its capital, but most countries do not recognise that claim, which is why you'll find almost all embassies in Tel Aviv.

Most countries do that to appease Arabs/Palestinians and pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel activists in their own countries, not for any objective reason.
Unlike Palestinians (who merely claim Jerusalem for capital) Jerusalem is not merely claimed by Israel but actually functions as the capital as it houses Israeli government except the Defense Ministry. Let me also note that Israel has a lot of historical connections to Jerusalem going back to BCE times while Palestinians only claim it because somebody else has it (like a toddler).

Even the US, one of Israel's closest allies, does not recognize its claim to Jerusalem as its capital and has its embassy in Tel Aviv.

That is very unfortunate and it just goes to show that contrary to what anti-Israel activists say US is not firmly on the side of Israel. In fact I wish US would be more pro-Israel (there are plenty firmly anti-Israel countries after all so the situation is completely out of balance) and accept Jerusalem.

That is true, but that has historically been the case for many countries. For example, the US recognised the Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) as the sole legitimate government of all of China up until 1979, a full thirty 30s after its de facto sovereignity had been restricted to Taiwan.

That is a very different situation. RC vs. PRC is a political dispute over government of the same state (China), while Israel/Palestinian conflict is what state to have in the same territory. Recognizing Tibet as a state would be a better analogy, but not perfect as Tibet at least used to be a country, whereas Palestine never was.

That is indeed a weird conspiracy theory, but you failed to mention two things to put this in context:
A) he's a city council member, not a politician of national profile.

Malmö is also not some small hamlet but the third largest city in Sweden. Furthermore, there has been a lot of antisemitism in Malmö in the recent past, and this councilman is certainly contributing to it.

B) he's been called out for it by members of his own party.

In the mildest possible terms (his regional vice chairman prefaced his "rebuke" saying he'd "rather not criticize a fellow party member"), and with no real consequences, even though he has done a similar thing ("Jew-European extreme right-wing conspiracy") before.

If we compare this with the conspiracy theories put forward by right-wing politicians (some of them with much higher profile), it's still sad but fairly unremarkable.

Not that it changes anything (what he did was still wrong even if the other side engages in a similar thing), but do you have an example?

 

[Derec]

Wait, the guy who started a thread yelling about how halal Subway restaurants signal the end of Western civilization is now complaining about fearmongering?

I did not say it was the "end of Western civilization" but it is an example of Western countries kowtowing to Muslim intolerance (it's not enough for them to eat halal, they must prevent others from eating non-halal around them). Demanding Western restaurants go halal only in neighborhoods with 15% Muslim population is ridiculous and Subway should never have done it.

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How about anti-blowing-up-defenseless-children-wth-rockets-ism?

That would be anti-Hamas-ism with their indiscriminate shooting of thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians. But opposition to the likes of Hamas is very rare among the left wing "intelligentsia" (an ironic name if there ever was one).

 

[Derec]

Does Israel's existence require the blowing up of children?

It requires defending themselves when under attack as they were during the Gaza conflict. Innocent people die in wars, including children.
But given the fact that Gaza is about half under 18 and about a quarter of the dead were under 18 it shows that Israel didn't indiscriminately target Gaza or (as some antisemitic commentators disgustingly claimed) targeted children specially.

 

[Jokodo]

Maybe as far as disputed territories go, but not in Israel proper.

Which borders of Israel proper? The Green line? Or the separation wall? The border between Israel and Lebanon, or Israel and Egypt, may be well defined, but the border between Israel and Palestine is no better defined than the border between Palestine and Israel (well, duh).

Jerusalem is claimed by Israel as its capital, but most countries do not recognise that claim, which is why you'll find almost all embassies in Tel Aviv.

Most countries do that to appease Arabs/Palestinians and pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel activists in their own countries, not for any objective reason.
Unlike Palestinians (who merely claim Jerusalem for capital) Jerusalem is not merely claimed by Israel but actually functions as the capital as it houses Israeli government except the Defense Ministry.

The reasons why countries do that are irrelevant to the fact that Israel does not have Jerusalem as its internationally recognised capital.

Let me also note that Israel has a lot of historical connections to Jerusalem going back to BCE times while Palestinians only claim it because somebody else has it (like a toddler).

A country that was founded in 1948 can not logically have "historical connections to Jerusalem going back to BCE times".

Even the US, one of Israel's closest allies, does not recognize its claim to Jerusalem as its capital and has its embassy in Tel Aviv.

That is very unfortunate and it just goes to show that contrary to what anti-Israel activists say US is not firmly on the side of Israel. In fact I wish US would be more pro-Israel (there are plenty firmly anti-Israel countries after all so the situation is completely out of balance) and accept Jerusalem.

That is true, but that has historically been the case for many countries. For example, the US recognised the Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) as the sole legitimate government of all of China up until 1979, a full thirty 30s after its de facto sovereignity had been restricted to Taiwan.

That is a very different situation. RC vs. PRC is a political dispute over government of the same state (China), while Israel/Palestinian conflict is what state to have in the same territory. Recognizing Tibet as a state would be a better analogy, but not perfect as Tibet at least used to be a country, whereas Palestine never was.

How about various wartime exile governments? It's at any rate not a situation without precedent.

That is indeed a weird conspiracy theory, but you failed to mention two things to put this in context:
A) he's a city council member, not a politician of national profile.

Malmö is also not some small hamlet but the third largest city in Sweden. Furthermore, there has been a lot of antisemitism in Malmö in the recent past, and this councilman is certainly contributing to it.

B) he's been called out for it by members of his own party.

In the mildest possible terms (his regional vice chairman prefaced his "rebuke" saying he'd "rather not criticize a fellow party member"), and with no real consequences, even though he has done a similar thing ("Jew-European extreme right-wing conspiracy") before.

If we compare this with the conspiracy theories put forward by right-wing politicians (some of them with much higher profile), it's still sad but fairly unremarkable.

Not that it changes anything (what he did was still wrong even if the other side engages in a similar thing), but do you have an example?

Sure:  Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda_link_allegations.

 

[Jokodo]

I did not say it was the "end of Western civilization" but it is an example of Western countries kowtowing to Muslim intolerance (it's not enough for them to eat halal, they must prevent others from eating non-halal around them). Demanding Western restaurants go halal only in neighborhoods with 15% Muslim population is ridiculous and Subway should never have done it.<snip>

In my city, there's at least a dozen vegetarians despite vegetarians making up only around 10% of the population, if that. Could you spare some of your outrage for that as well?

 

[Sabine Grant]

TFT Moderation Team.

 

[No Robots]

From the Jerusalem Post:

Two Swedish Green Party ministers in Stefan Löfven’s newly formed government protested Israel’s policies, prompting their detention for breaking international and domestic laws.

Sweden’s city planning and environment minister, Mehmet Kaplan, was on board Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara in 2010, which sought to break Israel’s naval blockade of the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip.

Israeli authorities detained him after the ship was intercepted.

Kaplan, who was born in the Turkish province of Gaziantep, rejects the existence of the Jewish state, according to experts.

Speaking from Stockholm, Lisa Abramowicz, secretary-general of the Swedish-Israel Information Center, told The Jerusalem Post that Kaplan spoke at a pro-Palestinian Gaza demonstration in July in Stockholm.

“66 years of occupation, and Jerusalem must be freed,” he said at the protest.

When asked if she views his anti-Israel assertions to be anti-Semitic, Abramowicz said, “I would say that is anti-Semitic” because by referencing 66 years of occupation that means “Israel has no right to exist.” She said he practices “double standards.”​

 

[Togo]

Speaking from Stockholm, Lisa Abramowicz, secretary-general of the Swedish-Israel Information Center, told The Jerusalem Post that Kaplan spoke at a pro-Palestinian Gaza demonstration in July in Stockholm.

“66 years of occupation, and Jerusalem must be freed,” he said at the protest.

When asked if she views his anti-Israel assertions to be anti-Semitic, Abramowicz said, “I would say that is anti-Semitic” because by referencing 66 years of occupation that means “Israel has no right to exist.” She said he practices “double standards.”

So someone who heads up a pro-Israeli political group in Sweden, thought that someone who spoke out against Israel, must therefore be anti-Semitic. I don't see how quoting someone else who is claiming that anyone criticising the Israeli Occupation must be anti-semitic is any more convincing than claiming it yourself. Can you explain?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're supporting the side that actually engages in ethnic cleansing rather than is merely accused of it.

Arctish is not supporting Israel. And the facts show that in terms of efficiency in effectual ethnic cleansing via killings and annexation, Israel is way ahead of Hamas.

I'm counting cleansing based on how many are removed from the area--and that yardstick puts the Palestinians way ahead. They're driving out anyone who isn't Muslim.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is probably the most disturbing pro-baby-killing apologetics I've ever read. If we don't blow up children when we don't have to, the US will fall to baby-wearing terrorists, and nevermind the fact the baby-wearers are only protected as long as they properly care for the babies. Blowing up defenseless children is how we keep freedom alive, so bombs away!

What a strange way to protest official recognition of a Palestinian State.

Reality can be quite upsetting to those living in a fantasyland where the good guys always have good options.


And I'm not opposed to recognizing the Palestinian state. It's an evil state but that doesn't mean it's not a state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You and No Robots are claiming that at this very moment, not killing children would cause the US to cease to exist. A thought experiment in which you pretend, as you admit you are doing, that "the terrorists" do something you admit they don't actually do isn't going to help you one bit to make that argument.

They don't do it because we aren't so stupid as to allow it to work. That doesn't mean they wouldn't do it if it worked.

 

[laughing dog]

Arctish is not supporting Israel. And the facts show that in terms of efficiency in effectual ethnic cleansing via killings and annexation, Israel is way ahead of Hamas.

I'm counting cleansing based on how many are removed from the area--and that yardstick puts the Palestinians way ahead. They're driving out anyone who isn't Muslim.

Do you have any numbers to compare the numbers of Palestinians killed and moved by the gov't of Israel compared to the number of people killed and moved by Hamas? Without those numbers, your claim appears counter-intuitive.

 

[No Robots]

So someone who heads up a pro-Israeli political group in Sweden, thought that someone who spoke out against Israel, must therefore be anti-Semitic. I don't see how quoting someone else who is claiming that anyone criticising the Israeli Occupation must be anti-semitic is any more convincing than claiming it yourself. Can you explain?

[T]he current political climate in Sweden is a key enabler for the rise of anti-Semitic attacks. This is Swedish Jewry’s real clear and present danger; a fatal combination of political correctness, self-righteousness and obliviousness, as leading politicians and opinion makers participate in or blatantly ignore the correlation between a disproportionate demonization of Israel that frequently crosses the line into anti-Semitism. This has created a climate where it is acceptable and encouraged to support calls for Israel’s destruction, deliberately ignoring the effect such support has as a vehicle for the rise in Swedish anti-Semitism.--"The clear and present danger facing Sweden's Jews"​

 

[Derec]

[delete]

 

[Jokodo]

You and No Robots are claiming that at this very moment, not killing children would cause the US to cease to exist. A thought experiment in which you pretend, as you admit you are doing, that "the terrorists" do something you admit they don't actually do isn't going to help you one bit to make that argument.

They don't do it because we aren't so stupid as to allow it to work. That doesn't mean they wouldn't do it if it worked.

For whatever reasons, they aren't doing it now so your scenario doesn't work as a justification for killing children now. You are not defending the notion that we should kill them regardless of the babies if they did that, you're supposed to defend the actual killings of children that happens in this real world of ours.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They don't do it because we aren't so stupid as to allow it to work. That doesn't mean they wouldn't do it if it worked.

For whatever reasons, they aren't doing it now so your scenario doesn't work as a justification for killing children now. You are not defending the notion that we should kill them regardless of the babies if they did that, you're supposed to defend the actual killings of children that happens in this real world of ours.

My scenario is simply taking what's happening now to the extreme.

Hamas shoots at Israel from behind kids. Israel can either shoot back or simply accept the deaths of their own population. No nation should be expected to let another nation simply shoot at them with impunity.

 

[laughing dog]

For whatever reasons, they aren't doing it now so your scenario doesn't work as a justification for killing children now. You are not defending the notion that we should kill them regardless of the babies if they did that, you're supposed to defend the actual killings of children that happens in this real world of ours.

My scenario is simply taking what's happening now to the extreme.

Hamas shoots at Israel from behind kids. Israel can either shoot back or simply accept the deaths of their own population. No nation should be expected to let another nation simply shoot at them with impunity.

Does that mean that Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have your approval when the Israel shoots at them?

 

[Jayjay]

My scenario is simply taking what's happening now to the extreme.

Hamas shoots at Israel from behind kids. Israel can either shoot back or simply accept the deaths of their own population. No nation should be expected to let another nation simply shoot at them with impunity.

Does that mean that Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have your approval when the Israel shoots at them?

Of course not, because that would mean applying the same standard to Jewish master race and sub-human Palestinians. Duh!

 

[Togo]

So someone who heads up a pro-Israeli political group in Sweden, thought that someone who spoke out against Israel, must therefore be anti-Semitic. I don't see how quoting someone else who is claiming that anyone criticising the Israeli Occupation must be anti-semitic is any more convincing than claiming it yourself. Can you explain?

[T]he current political climate in Sweden is a key enabler for the rise of anti-Semitic attacks.

If you say so, but that doesn't make the connection between criticising Israel and being anti-semitic any more convincing.

This is Swedish Jewry’s real clear and present danger; a fatal combination of political correctness, self-righteousness and obliviousness, as leading politicians and opinion makers participate in or blatantly ignore the correlation between a disproportionate demonization of Israel that frequently crosses the line into anti-Semitism.

That's the claim that can't be demonstrated.

This has created a climate where it is acceptable and encouraged to support calls for Israel’s destruction, deliberately ignoring the effect such support has as a vehicle for the rise in Swedish anti-Semitism.--"The clear and present danger facing Sweden's Jews"

Article is behind a paywall. Again, while I'm sure that criticising anything Jewish, from Kosher slaughter practices, to the state of Isarel, would give comfort to the racist, just as criticising the US would give comfort to terrorists, that's not a reason to silence people. Most Western countries have gone well beyond the idea that we should let loyalty to a state, people, or ideal, silence any criticism of it, and a good thing to. We're not going to be silent about our own government's actions just because some of the people who criticise the government are killers, any more than we're going to be silent about Israel's actions, just because some people are racist.

So no, we're not going to let spurious accusations of anti-semitism stifle debate, or give Israel special status over other countries. I would ask, however, that you give some thought to how the practice of apologising for Israel by trying to label any critcism as anti-semitism, helps aids and encourages those who are genuinely racist to escape public censure.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Does that mean that Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza have your approval when the Israel shoots at them?

Of course not, because that would mean applying the same standard to Jewish master race and sub-human Palestinians. Duh!

Where do you see the IDF shooting from behind kids??