Syed's Mega-Thread

[Gila Guerilla]

god could make human without suffering but human would be like robot without suffering

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

What this means is that "God" chose the one universe, based on "his" all-seeing knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, and in that 'script' you do murder one day. Thus everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future happens by "God's" will. So you being a murderer would be "God's" will. Ever since before the universe began, you were cast in the role of murderer. There will be nothing that you can do, no act of will, which will prevent that. So where is your non-robotness? How are you able to end up as anything other than as a murderer?

You might say, 'If it's "God's" will then it will be'. OK, but on the other hand, if your will is to not be a murderer, then you are stuck, because it is written in "God's" history, in "God's" script for the universe, that you will be a murderer. Then how can you claim to NOT be like a robot? The only option you have is to do "God's" will - it cannot be varied. On this description of "God" and of "his" powers and abilities, freewill is just an illusion, you merely follow a program, like it or not, as a robot.

It sounds a bit fancy and "nice" to claim that: "If "God" wills it, it will be". But the logical conclusion shatters the myth of real free agency or non-robotness. If the thought game is that you will do murder, what it means, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), is that "God" did the murder, long ago, before "he" supposedly "created" the universe. It was a "decision" "God" made when writing the script for the history of the universe, the one which "he" picked, and when supposedly brought into reality.

On this analysis, what it also means is that "God" cannot have any hopes, or wishes or other plans. They were all laid down long ago, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct). "God' cannot hope that you will not become a murderer, because "he" knows to 100% certainty that you will. A being with 100% accurate knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, cannot hope for anything other than what it knows it will be.

If you wish to give that being, ("God"), the power to change the events in the universe by some means unknown to us, that "change" would be known to "God", right from before the moment(s) of "creation", as well. Even that was cast in an iron-clad and unchangeable history, set in the "mind" of "God" since "time zero". Thus even "God" could not make that atom / molecule bouncing around in the bottle of water, any different than what "he" supposedly envisaged before the universe was brought into being, before the atoms and molecules existed, before humans invented bottles, before the water came to be in the bottle, and before anything material supposedly came into existence.

So, Syed, you need to change the statement . . .

god could make human without suffering but human would be like robot without suffering

. . . to something like :-

Even with suffering and with pleasure, we are robot-like, because "God" decided so long ago, before we were born, and even before we were supposedly "created", exactly what we would do, when and how, and we are not able to deviate our behaviour from "God's" script, because "God" has perfect knowledge, and knows how he planned our births, our deaths, and all of our actions in life.


According to your belief, Syed - if I have it correct, we are robots that are pushed and pulled and shoved by pain and pleasure, and it was laid down by your "God", and you must follow the details of "God's" lines of robot code, that "he" decided, when "he" was pondering how "he' would have the universe run, BEFORE he made anything, when there was just "God" and nothing else. It might seem as though we are free, and not robots, but, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), it just has to be an illusion. I challenge you to do anything tomorrow, which is not already in your "God's" script or program, for how you, and all of the universe will be, and run.

 

[Syed]

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

i will answer all your questions one at a time

but it will be good if you start a new thread or i will answer here its up to you, let me know

 

[none]

haha a threat

 

[bigfield]

Here's a logical explanation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Here's another one:
http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/selection/selection.html

You've had years to read logical explanations of Natural Selection. Why haven't you read them and learned Natural Selection?

Why do you remain ignorant about Natural Selection?

Plenty of Muslims understand how Natural Selection works, and accept that it is true, without becoming atheists. There are even Muslim biologists who study evolution.

You do not need to renounce Islam in order to understand scientific ideas, particularly not relatively simple and fundamental theories such as Natural Selection.

So what are you waiting for?

does natural selection makes mistakes?

Stop asking stupid questions.

Go and learn the basics.

 

[fast]

I want you to use your imagination, Syed. Can you imagine that "God" made the universe and everything in it? Can you imagine that "God" has the power to move every atom at "his" will? Can you imagine an atom / molecule which is bouncing around in a bottle of water? Do you agree that "God" could have made that atom bounce around another way than what it actually did, say three minutes ago? Can you imagine someone killing someone else? Can you imagine them doing it three days ago? Can you imagine "God" existing BEFORE "he" made the universe?

Let's make some propositions:-
"God" can do any logically possible thing "he" wants.
"God" has all the power necessary to do those things.
"God" knows everything that has ever happened, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future.

This means that "God" knows when you will die for example, down to the last 'micro-pico-tiny' fraction of a second accuracy.
"God" knows exactly how you will die, be it of old age, or illness or murder at someone's hands or whatever.
Let's suppose that you will murder somebody, at some time in the future, (I hope not - this is just a thought exercise).

Now go back to imagining "God" creating the universe. Since "God" can see everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, then when "God" made the universe, and even before "he" made the universe, "he" had the ability to see everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen, including you murdering someone. That means that from the instant "God" supposedly created this universe, all that is in it, and at that will ever happen in it was decided, foreseen and known to 100% certainty and accuracy, (supposedly by this "God"). "God" could foresee you doing a murder to someone, seeing and knowing it to 100% certainty, back before the universe was real, back when "he" was imagining how "he" wanted it to be, (after all, "he must" have made it however "he" wanted it to be - not how "he" didn't want it to be).

I've imagined this type of scenario many times. As a comparison, I envisage it like "God" writing scripts for movies, many scripts which "he" could have brought to be. Many universes, with many different story lines, and and many different people and animals and so on, compared to the one in which we actually live.

What this means is that "God" chose the one universe, based on "his" all-seeing knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, and in that 'script' you do murder one day. Thus everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future happens by "God's" will. So you being a murderer would be "God's" will. Ever since before the universe began, you were cast in the role of murderer. There will be nothing that you can do, no act of will, which will prevent that. So where is your non-robotness? How are you able to end up as anything other than as a murderer?

You might say, 'If it's "God's" will then it will be'. OK, but on the other hand, if your will is to not be a murderer, then you are stuck, because it is written in "God's" history, in "God's" script for the universe, that you will be a murderer. Then how can you claim to NOT be like a robot? The only option you have is to do "God's" will - it cannot be varied. On this description of "God" and of "his" powers and abilities, freewill is just an illusion, you merely follow a program, like it or not, as a robot.

It sounds a bit fancy and "nice" to claim that: "If "God" wills it, it will be". But the logical conclusion shatters the myth of real free agency or non-robotness. If the thought game is that you will do murder, what it means, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), is that "God" did the murder, long ago, before "he" supposedly "created" the universe. It was a "decision" "God" made when writing the script for the history of the universe, the one which "he" picked, and when supposedly brought into reality.

On this analysis, what it also means is that "God" cannot have any hopes, or wishes or other plans. They were all laid down long ago, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct). "God' cannot hope that you will not become a murderer, because "he" knows to 100% certainty that you will. A being with 100% accurate knowledge of everything that happens, everything which is about to happen, and everything which will ever happen in the future, cannot hope for anything other than what it knows it will be.

If you wish to give that being, ("God"), the power to change the events in the universe by some means unknown to us, that "change" would be known to "God", right from before the moment(s) of "creation", as well. Even that was cast in an iron-clad and unchangeable history, set in the "mind" of "God" since "time zero". Thus even "God" could not make that atom / molecule bouncing around in the bottle of water, any different than what "he" supposedly envisaged before the universe was brought into being, before the atoms and molecules existed, before humans invented bottles, before the water came to be in the bottle, and before anything material supposedly came into existence.

So, Syed, you need to change the statement . . .

god could make human without suffering but human would be like robot without suffering

. . . to something like :-

Even with suffering and with pleasure, we are robot-like, because "God" decided so long ago, before we were born, and even before we were supposedly "created", exactly what we would do, when and how, and we are not able to deviate our behaviour from "God's" script, because "God" has perfect knowledge, and knows how he planned our births, our deaths, and all of our actions in life.


According to your belief, Syed - if I have it correct, we are robots that are pushed and pulled and shoved by pain and pleasure, and it was laid down by your "God", and you must follow the details of "God's" lines of robot code, that "he" decided, when "he" was pondering how "he' would have the universe run, BEFORE he made anything, when there was just "God" and nothing else. It might seem as though we are free, and not robots, but, (according to your belief Syed - if I have it correct), it just has to be an illusion. I challenge you to do anything tomorrow, which is not already in your "God's" script or program, for how you, and all of the universe will be, and run.

If I must act, then I will act, but the inverse is untrue; moreover, although I will if I must, it's not so that I must if I will.

Knowledge is independent of truth. Knowing what I will do does not imply that I must do what you know I will. How so? Actuality implies possibility, but the inverse is not so.

An analysis of the JTB Theory of Knowledge does not support your contention. If you know what I will do, then there is still the possibility of mistake, for the implication of the theory is not that I must do as you know I will; rather, the limited implication is that I will do what you know I will. However, you're human, and as with all of humanity, there is the possibility of mistake, but even if you could (like God) not be mistaken and know what you do with the impossibility of mistake, nothing about your knowledge transforms contingent truths into necessary truths, for as I said earlier, truth is independent of knowledge.

If God knows I will kill someone, then I will someone, but it's not true that I must kill someone merely because it's impossible for Him to be mistaken. His knowledge (acknowledged as certainty) does not mean the contingent truth is a necessary truth. I have the real choice to not kill. God's great knowledge does not alter that. It simply means that He will know with certainty what choices I will willingly make. My free will is not compromised by His knowledge of my choices.

 

[DBT]

So Jinn are prone to disease, old age, decline and death? Jinn get cancer, heart disease, arthritis and all the other woes of humankind?

first thing is jinn are not biological creature like human blood and bone

2, i dont know that they eat food

3, i dont know they are prone to disease

4, they do die of old age

By your reasoning, they must be prone to disease, old age and death because that is the only way to learn and not be a robot?

So what happens when you get to heaven and are allocated with a brand new Immoral Body.....no more suffering, death or disease, do you then become a Robot like the Angels?

 

[Syed]

first thing is jinn are not biological creature like human blood and bone

2, i dont know that they eat food

3, i dont know they are prone to disease

4, they do die of old age

By your reasoning, they must be prone to disease, old age and death because that is the only way to learn and not be a robot?

So what happens when you get to heaven and are allocated with a brand new Immoral Body.....no more suffering, death or disease, do you then become a Robot like the Angels?

we already discuss about human in heaven

 

[DBT]

By your reasoning, they must be prone to disease, old age and death because that is the only way to learn and not be a robot?

So what happens when you get to heaven and are allocated with a brand new Immoral Body.....no more suffering, death or disease, do you then become a Robot like the Angels?

we already discuss about human in heaven

I don't think that you explained it well enough. Going on what you say, humans in heaven cannot learn because it requires suffering and evil in order to be able to learn.

Angels are in heaven but because they do not suffer they are robots and cannot learn.

Given this situation, once humans are in Heaven they must stop learning, they must stall in terms of their ability to learn.

 

[Syed]

we already discuss about human in heaven

I don't think that you explained it well enough. Going on what you say, humans in heaven cannot learn because it requires suffering and evil in order to be able to learn.

Angels are in heaven but because they do not suffer they are robots and cannot learn.

Given this situation, once humans are in Heaven they must stop learning, they must stall in terms of their ability to learn.

first, i didnt say that human cant learn in heaven

now human already learned a b c, 1 2 3 and how to makes computer, so we will continue learn in heaven for fascination and material gain

our stage of NO PAIN NO GAIN will be over in heaven and replace with knowledge for fascination and material gain



god knows best

 

[Sajara]

I don't think that you explained it well enough. Going on what you say, humans in heaven cannot learn because it requires suffering and evil in order to be able to learn.

Angels are in heaven but because they do not suffer they are robots and cannot learn.

Given this situation, once humans are in Heaven they must stop learning, they must stall in terms of their ability to learn.

first, i didnt say that human cant learn in heaven

now human already learned a b c, 1 2 3 and how to makes computer, so we will continue learn in heaven for fascination and material gain

our stage of NO PAIN NO GAIN will be over in heaven and replace with knowledge for fascination and material gain



god knows best

So humans are capable of learning in heaven without pain?

 

[Syed]

first, i didnt say that human cant learn in heaven

now human already learned a b c, 1 2 3 and how to makes computer, so we will continue learn in heaven for fascination and material gain

our stage of NO PAIN NO GAIN will be over in heaven and replace with knowledge for fascination and material gain



god knows best

So humans are capable of learning in heaven without pain?

yes, because we already learned basic knowledge

 

[Atheos]

So exactly how much suffering is required to learn basic knowledge so one can experience learning in heaven? If a baby is stillborn and goes straight to heaven without having had the opportunity to live in this world and learn through suffering does it get the same ability to learn in heaven it would have gotten if it had lived to be 90 years old and suffered with debilitating pain all its life?

If god could accomplish the objective of achieving just the minimal amount of suffering necessary to jump start the learning process, but instead chooses to allow gratuitous and unnecessary suffering then either god just likes suffering or he doesn't care enough to do anything about it. Or he doesn't know it's happening. Back to the POE in all its splendor.

Also, this demonstrates a chink in god's omnipotence. Evidently he requires a means to get to an end and cannot just achieve the end with his power.

 

[Syed]

So exactly how much suffering is required to learn basic knowledge so one can experience learning in heaven? If a baby is stillborn and goes straight to heaven without having had the opportunity to live in this world and learn through suffering does it get the same ability to learn in heaven it would have gotten if it had lived to be 90 years old and suffered with debilitating pain all its life?

.

you tell me what did cause us human to learn about our anatomy organs? pains right?

 

[James Brown]

I would have thought it was curiosity.

Does this mean people won't be curious in heaven?

 

[Syed]

I would have thought it was curiosity.

big no, it was diseases, pain and suffering so we learn about plaints chemistry that let to medical science

god made human ONLY learning creature

Does this mean people won't be curious in heaven?

curiosity and learning will never end in heaven

 

[Atheos]

So exactly how much suffering is required to learn basic knowledge so one can experience learning in heaven? If a baby is stillborn and goes straight to heaven without having had the opportunity to live in this world and learn through suffering does it get the same ability to learn in heaven it would have gotten if it had lived to be 90 years old and suffered with debilitating pain all its life?

.

you tell me what did cause us human to learn about our anatomy organs? pains right?

How about you answer a question for a change and stop with all the dancing around. Does the dead baby go to heaven even if it didn't suffer? Does it have the ability to learn in heaven?

 

[Syed]

you tell me what did cause us human to learn about our anatomy organs? pains right?

How about you answer a question for a change and stop with all the dancing around. Does the dead baby go to heaven even if it didn't suffer? Does it have the ability to learn in heaven?

of course adult will teach baby just like we teach baby now

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

god made human ONLY learning creature

You keep saying this, but it isn't even remotely true. Do you think animals come out of the womb, the egg, or wherever, knowing everything they'll ever need to know? Don't be so dense. Everything learns. How to get about, how to feed itself, how to avoid predators or be a good predator ... nothing is born knowing all those things, learning nothing between birth and death.

The only difference between us and them is that they only have their parents to teach them, or they have to teach themselves. We are lucky enough to have the ability to record things, in writing or by other means, so that each generation has the accumulated wisdom of the generations before which it can build on.

We're not the "only learning creature"; we're the only creature that records its learning. Although some of us seem incapable of learning much ...

 

[Syed]

god made human ONLY learning creature

You keep saying this, but it isn't even remotely true. Do you think animals come out of the womb, the egg, or wherever, knowing everything they'll ever need to know? Don't be so dense. Everything learns. How to get about, how to feed itself, how to avoid predators or be a good predator ... nothing is born knowing all those things, learning nothing between birth and death.

The only difference between us and them is that they only have their parents to teach them, or they have to teach themselves. We are lucky enough to have the ability to record things, in writing or by other means, so that each generation has the accumulated wisdom of the generations before which it can build on.

We're not the "only learning creature"; we're the only creature that records its learning. Although some of us seem incapable of learning much ...

i meant to say human are the only creature who could read, write, talk, and cure ourselves because god made us that way

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

You keep saying this, but it isn't even remotely true. Do you think animals come out of the womb, the egg, or wherever, knowing everything they'll ever need to know? Don't be so dense. Everything learns. How to get about, how to feed itself, how to avoid predators or be a good predator ... nothing is born knowing all those things, learning nothing between birth and death.

The only difference between us and them is that they only have their parents to teach them, or they have to teach themselves. We are lucky enough to have the ability to record things, in writing or by other means, so that each generation has the accumulated wisdom of the generations before which it can build on.

We're not the "only learning creature"; we're the only creature that records its learning. Although some of us seem incapable of learning much ...

i meant to say human are the only creature who could read, write, talk, and cure ourselves because god made us that way

I don't care what you "meant" to say. I can only respond to what you do say, because I'm not a fucking mind reader. In any case ... again, no.

Talking: many animals communicate. What they say might not be as sophisticated as human language, but they can convey simple messages by various means. We can go further, but that's only a matter of degree.
Reading, writing: can you "read" the dance of a bee returning to its hive after finding a source of food? Other bees can. That's a form of "writing", using symbolic "language" to convey a message.
Curing ourselves: simply put, we can't "cure ourselves" of everything. And for the vast majority of humanity's time on this planet, we couldn't cure anything. Unlike, for example, some lizards , which can grow back amputated tails or limbs.

We're not special.