Tennessee School Board Bans Holocaust Graphic Novel

[Jimmy Higgins]

Dude, why don't you download and read the meeting minutes in question, and highlight the sections in it that you think have to do with racism or anti-semitism. Then we can have a discussion. At this point, it seems you and others seem to think that's what this is all about, but my interpretation is its the wrong focus. Its a little community in Tennessee that's got some prudish attitudes...that's about all you can say about the whole story IMHO. Just show me the racism. "Dog whistles" and "personal feelings about rural southern people" don't count.

First rule of Racism Club is never mention Racism Club.

It is funny. Hotel Rwanda was on TCM, and I stopped on it for a short bit. My daughter recognized War Machine, but I told her this was not a fantasy movie about something real, something very bad. As I ponder when my daughter is ready to understand the scope of the Holocaust and genocides at a cerebral level, the question of mouse nudity or naughty language never seems to enter the picture. When she is ready to absorb it, the mouse nudity and naughty language issue is well in the rear view mirror.

If this is nothing but an issue of prude, they are in terrible amount of denial about language and nudity with their teens. Seeing these people voted for Mr. Prude for the White House, I call bullshit on the Prude.

That's nice that you are teaching your daughter about morality and justice via movies.

Goad much?

Might I suggest your next father/daughter movie be To Kill a Mockingbird? Its part of the reading list for McMinn County schools. In this movie you will learn about the hideousness of false, unfounded accusations. Kinda like in post #11 where you said, (prior to reading the meeting minute transcripts) "These anti-Semites are trash." And later on in post #26, after you had apparently read them, you made no reference whatsoever about any anti-semitism (because there wasn't any). But you still felt the need to hurl some sort of insult at them, so you said, "At best, a bunch of pussies."

Seeing that their issues with the book are generally based on issues that don't exist, there are anti-Semites on that school board.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I asked you to point out where in the meeting minutes there are racist or anti-semitic comments. You did not do that. Instead, out of the 20 pages to choose from, you focused on some minor, fairly inconsequential inconsistencies between what one school board member remembered about the picture and what the picture actually showed. This tells me you got nothin'. You're just blowing steam at this point. And if you read what I wrote, I never claimed I was "characterizing everyone in the south as racist". I said "personal feelings about southern people". I also don't have any "porno claims". I specifically said multiple times in this thread that I was not commenting on the image, because I hadn't seen it. My reference to it being "porno" was (I thought) obviously tongue-in-cheek. Even Jimmy Higgins figured that out. So, don't put words in my mouth.

This whole thread is one of the biggest clusterfucks I've seen in a long time. People insisting that the issue is about the school board seeing "naked mice" or insisting that the image in question was of a naked mouse, when it was quite clearly a woman. And of course, insisting it was all about anti-semitism, but no one can produce any evidence of it. SMH.

This is a very simple question: are you going to concede they made a bad decision or not? It's a yes or no question.

 

[thebeave]

I asked you to point out where in the meeting minutes there are racist or anti-semitic comments. You did not do that. Instead, out of the 20 pages to choose from, you focused on some minor, fairly inconsequential inconsistencies between what one school board member remembered about the picture and what the picture actually showed. This tells me you got nothin'. You're just blowing steam at this point. And if you read what I wrote, I never claimed I was "characterizing everyone in the south as racist". I said "personal feelings about southern people". I also don't have any "porno claims". I specifically said multiple times in this thread that I was not commenting on the image, because I hadn't seen it. My reference to it being "porno" was (I thought) obviously tongue-in-cheek. Even Jimmy Higgins figured that out. So, don't put words in my mouth.

This whole thread is one of the biggest clusterfucks I've seen in a long time. People insisting that the issue is about the school board seeing "naked mice" or insisting that the image in question was of a naked mouse, when it was quite clearly a woman. And of course, insisting it was all about anti-semitism, but no one can produce any evidence of it. SMH.

This is a very simple question: are you going to concede they made a bad decision or not? It's a yes or no question.

You're not going to like my answer, but at the moment, its "I don't know". I don't have all the information needed to answer that question right now, unlike several people on this thread who have made bold claims about people & things without sufficient knowledge, that have turned out to be wrong and ridiculous. But basically, if by banning Maus, they are now not going to be teaching about the Holocaust at all, then I would say it was a bad decision. I personally am not a fan of teaching by comic books except to first graders, but if that was their only option, then they should have gone with it. On the other hand, if they decided not to use Maus, but instead chose another, better, Holocaust book for teaching, then I would say it was a good decision. I would have to read Maus (which I haven't) and the alternative Holocaust book (I don't know what it is) they chose to judge for myself. Hope that answers your question. I have to take off for the rest of the day, so in the meantime, you could help me out by looking to see what alternative textbook, if any, they will be using to replace Maus. Thanks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I asked you to point out where in the meeting minutes there are racist or anti-semitic comments. You did not do that. Instead, out of the 20 pages to choose from, you focused on some minor, fairly inconsequential inconsistencies between what one school board member remembered about the picture and what the picture actually showed. This tells me you got nothin'. You're just blowing steam at this point. And if you read what I wrote, I never claimed I was "characterizing everyone in the south as racist". I said "personal feelings about southern people". I also don't have any "porno claims". I specifically said multiple times in this thread that I was not commenting on the image, because I hadn't seen it. My reference to it being "porno" was (I thought) obviously tongue-in-cheek. Even Jimmy Higgins figured that out. So, don't put words in my mouth.

This whole thread is one of the biggest clusterfucks I've seen in a long time. People insisting that the issue is about the school board seeing "naked mice" or insisting that the image in question was of a naked mouse, when it was quite clearly a woman. And of course, insisting it was all about anti-semitism, but no one can produce any evidence of it. SMH.

This is a very simple question: are you going to concede they made a bad decision or not? It's a yes or no question.

You're not going to like my answer, but at the moment, its "I don't know".

Nice cop out. You have the transcript of the meeting. You have the images from the Pulitzer winning graphic novel.

I don't have all the information needed to answer that question right now, unlike several people on this thread who have made bold claims about people & things without sufficient knowledge, that have turned out to be wrong and ridiculous.

Man, you are willing to give some people the benefit of the doubt.

But basically, if by banning Maus, they are now not going to be teaching about the Holocaust at all, then I would say it was a bad decision.

If you read the transcript...

I personally am not a fan of teaching by comic books except to first graders, but if that was their only option, then they should have gone with it. On the other hand, if they decided not to use Maus, but instead chose another, better, Holocaust book for teaching, then I would say it was a good decision. I would have to read Maus (which I haven't) and the alternative Holocaust book (I don't know what it is) they chose to judge for myself. Hope that answers your question. I have to take off for the rest of the day, so in the meantime, you could help me out by looking to see what alternative textbook, if any, they will be using to replace Maus. Thanks.

Night by Wiesel. Of course, Night doesn't nearly go into the depth of details of post Holocaust survival.

The question becomes why is accurately depicting the Holocaust and its post Holocaust trauma offensive? Bad language, semi-nude mice, suicide?

 

[JohnG]

Oh noes, kids learning to hunt, run away, run away! You must hate watching National Geographic specials of the Kalahari Bushmen teaching their young sons how to kill animals for food. Or watching fishing shows with a family out fishing in a lake. Why can't these people just go to KFC or Red Lobster like normal people, instead of hurting animals?

Not to derail, but if you equate giving a 9 year old a rifle to a fishing rod, I have some stats for you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh noes, kids learning to hunt, run away, run away! You must hate watching National Geographic specials of the Kalahari Bushmen teaching their young sons how to kill animals for food. Or watching fishing shows with a family out fishing in a lake. Why can't these people just go to KFC or Red Lobster like normal people, instead of hurting animals?

Not to derail, but if you equate giving a 9 year old a rifle to a fishing rod, I have some stats for you.

I think his point was killing an animal wasn't as bad or graphic as art of an animal depicted in a graphic novel.

Ultimately, the State of Tennessee says both hunting is kosher for young children and that Maus is also appropriate for older children.

 

[JohnG]

In Ottawa Canada, the swastika flag is flying at a "Freedom Protest" thanks to our right wing government's dog whistling these idiots for years. They have common ground in their hatred of LGTBQ, immigrants, and non-christians

 

[JohnG]

Oh noes, kids learning to hunt, run away, run away! You must hate watching National Geographic specials of the Kalahari Bushmen teaching their young sons how to kill animals for food. Or watching fishing shows with a family out fishing in a lake. Why can't these people just go to KFC or Red Lobster like normal people, instead of hurting animals?

Not to derail, but if you equate giving a 9 year old a rifle to a fishing rod, I have some stats for you.

I think his point was killing an animal wasn't as bad or graphic as art of an animal depicted in a graphic novel.

Ultimately, the State of Tennessee says both hunting is kosher for young children and that Maus is also appropriate for older children.

Apologies I misinterpreted

 

[Patooka]

If I could just address the elephant in the room, we all know who is solely responsible for this fiasco...

Show

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seeing that their issues with the book are generally based on issues that don't exist, there are anti-Semites on that school board.

Actually, you can't conclude that. There's also the possibility that they are simply idiots who simply want to be sure not to be against banning something "bad".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Seeing that their issues with the book are generally based on issues that don't exist, there are anti-Semites on that school board.

Actually, you can't conclude that. There's also the possibility that they are simply idiots who simply want to be sure not to be against banning something "bad".

And where did some of these people get ideas that Maus was bad for high school students?

 

[thebeave]

I asked you to point out where in the meeting minutes there are racist or anti-semitic comments. You did not do that. Instead, out of the 20 pages to choose from, you focused on some minor, fairly inconsequential inconsistencies between what one school board member remembered about the picture and what the picture actually showed. This tells me you got nothin'. You're just blowing steam at this point. And if you read what I wrote, I never claimed I was "characterizing everyone in the south as racist". I said "personal feelings about southern people". I also don't have any "porno claims". I specifically said multiple times in this thread that I was not commenting on the image, because I hadn't seen it. My reference to it being "porno" was (I thought) obviously tongue-in-cheek. Even Jimmy Higgins figured that out. So, don't put words in my mouth.

This whole thread is one of the biggest clusterfucks I've seen in a long time. People insisting that the issue is about the school board seeing "naked mice" or insisting that the image in question was of a naked mouse, when it was quite clearly a woman. And of course, insisting it was all about anti-semitism, but no one can produce any evidence of it. SMH.

This is a very simple question: are you going to concede they made a bad decision or not? It's a yes or no question.

You're not going to like my answer, but at the moment, its "I don't know".

Nice cop out. You have the transcript of the meeting. You have the images from the Pulitzer winning graphic novel.

I don't have all the information needed to answer that question right now, unlike several people on this thread who have made bold claims about people & things without sufficient knowledge, that have turned out to be wrong and ridiculous.

Man, you are willing to give some people the benefit of the doubt.

But basically, if by banning Maus, they are now not going to be teaching about the Holocaust at all, then I would say it was a bad decision.

If you read the transcript...

I personally am not a fan of teaching by comic books except to first graders, but if that was their only option, then they should have gone with it. On the other hand, if they decided not to use Maus, but instead chose another, better, Holocaust book for teaching, then I would say it was a good decision. I would have to read Maus (which I haven't) and the alternative Holocaust book (I don't know what it is) they chose to judge for myself. Hope that answers your question. I have to take off for the rest of the day, so in the meantime, you could help me out by looking to see what alternative textbook, if any, they will be using to replace Maus. Thanks.

Night by Wiesel. Of course, Night doesn't nearly go into the depth of details of post Holocaust survival.

The question becomes why is accurately depicting the Holocaust and its post Holocaust trauma offensive? Bad language, semi-nude mice, suicide?

Where did you see Night, by Wiesel in the transcripts? I just got through rereading them and didn't see that in there as their alternate Holocaust book to Maus. Regardless, I don't see a problem with the school board switching to Night. I just checked out some reviews on Amazon and it seems highly regarded. Maus is too, for that matter. So, either would be OK by me. However, Elie Wiesel seems to be a much more serious, acclaimed author, whereas Art Spiegelmen is largely just a cartoonist. He is responsible for the Garbage Pail Kids Trading Cards. So, its a little hard to take his work too seriously.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

 

[Keith&Co.]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

It'll fare fine, really.
They left an out.


They'll just say the Bible's depictions of rape, violence, genocide, mass murder, and women with lovers who are hung like a mule is necessary. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

I had the same thought.

"Look, I understand that your Lord and Savior is 'The Way,' but exposing small children to a story about murder, torture, and then expecting them to drink the blood is unacceptable. The reading material, sermons and food/drink combinations are just too age inappropriate. Is there a less violent religion you could teach them in the meantime until they are adults? Buddhism, perhaps?"

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

It'll fare fine, really.
They left an out.
View attachment 37052

They'll just say the Bible's depictions of rape, violence, genocide, mass murder, and women with lovers who are hung like a mule is necessary. Not the same thing at all.

We asked them to find another book, because we came into the meeting only wanting to ban, not to have a solution in hand. I mean, how much different this would come out if the guy says, "I don't like the objectionable material in this graphic novel. What if we switch to Wiesel's Night?"

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seeing that their issues with the book are generally based on issues that don't exist, there are anti-Semites on that school board.

Actually, you can't conclude that. There's also the possibility that they are simply idiots who simply want to be sure not to be against banning something "bad".

And where did some of these people get ideas that Maus was bad for high school students?

Sure, there are some anti-semites involved. I'm simply saying the school board could just be jumping on the bandwagon without actually understanding. There are an awful lot of sheeple on the right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

It'll fare fine, really.
They left an out.
View attachment 37052

They'll just say the Bible's depictions of rape, violence, genocide, mass murder, and women with lovers who are hung like a mule is necessary. Not the same thing at all.

I don't see an out here--the Bible is far more adult than Maus. They'll need an age-appropriate version.

 

[laughing dog]

This book banning is not simply a conservative phenomena in the USA (Book bannings up in the USA ).

Book challenges aren't just coming from the right: "Of Mice and Men" and "To Kill a Mockingbird," for example, have been challenged over the years for how they address race, and both were among the library association's 10 most-challenged books in 2020.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Anyone have a link to the language of this ban? (I hate doing searches on my phone. )
I'm curious if we applied this new standard to the bible, how it would fair....

It'll fare fine, really.
They left an out.

They'll just say the Bible's depictions of rape, violence, genocide, mass murder, and women with lovers who are hung like a mule is necessary. Not the same thing at all.

I don't see an out here--

But it's GOD'S WORD! And GOD'S WORD tells us that GOD'S WORD is appropriate for instruction. Any word in there would not be in there iff'n it wasn't part of His ineffable plan.
Thus, necessary.