Tennessee School Board Bans Holocaust Graphic Novel

[ZiprHead]

 

[repoman]

well rounded coverage of this non scandal.

 

[Politesse]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's a good idea to ban any books, regardless if some people find them offensive. That includes the liberals who are banning books because they have insulting racist or sexist terms in them. We should all be educated about history, even the most horrid parts of it. It's just ironic that sometimes a banned book becomes more popular due to the attention it gets.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/opinion/culture/maus-tennessee-book-bans.html

History teaches us that banning books has always been futile. The first translation of the New Testament published in English was banned in England, its translator executed for heresy. Anybody care to guess how many English-language Bibles now exist in the world?

The present is showing us how futile it still is. Shortly after The Tennessee Holler broke the news, “Maus” hit the stratosphere, becoming a No. 1 Amazon best seller 36 years after it first appeared in book form. Shortly thereafter it was sold out at Amazon and nearly everywhere else. Tennessee bookstores — with the help of donations from readers — stormed into action. Nirvana Comics in Knoxville offered to send a copy of “Maus” to any student who requested one. Fairy tales & More, a children’s bookstore in Nashville, is partnering with local schools to do the same. The Bookshop in East Nashville will donate 10 percent of its retail sales on Feb. 13 to the Freedom to Read Foundation, “to help get these books into the hands of those who need them,” said store owner Joelle Herr.

The link is the article that I mentioned in an earlier post. The author isn't in favor of banning books. She's just mentioned that banning books usually backfires and ends up giving the book more attention.

Book banning and cancel culture are wrong, imo, regardless if it's coming from liberals or conservatives. We need to look at a person or a work of art in it's entirety, and not just judge art or people based on the use of prejudicial terms that were used in the past, or even politically incorrect terms used in the present. If one is writing a book that includes historical facts, than the terms that were used during those days shouldn't be banned. We all need to stop being such snowflakes. We know a lot of people are hateful, or simply ignorant. Some people have never had the opportunity to learn or befriend those who are different from themselves. Some people drive me crazy with their attitudes and beliefs, but if I look hard enough, I can usually find something positive about theses same people, well assuming they aren't psychopaths. But then, psychopathy is a brain disorder, so while I can condemn their actions, I realize that they are also victims of a dysfunctional brain. Have I gone off topic enough?

 

[Politesse]

She's just mentioned that banning books usually backfires and ends up giving the book more attention.

Sometimes, sometimes not. I'm giving a lecture this very week, as it happens, on the history of Black publications in anthropology. Do you have any idea how many decades of advancement in the social sciences were set back because its primary movers and shakers were too Black, too Indian, too Queer, too Communist, or too Jewish to be considered acceptable for public consumption? I'm not worried that Maus is going to become suddenly unavailable, or Catcher in the Rye. They're highly visible works and have devoted fans. But not all books that make the banned list have a well-funded media campaign to defend them and provide free publicity when someone tries to take them off the shelves. And even they will ultimately be read by less students than would have been the case if they had stayed in the 8th grade curriculum. This sales bump is a temporary effect; the media will forget about the issue within a few weeks time but the ban will still be in effect. And I honestly, earnestly, do not believe that a single twelve-year old in the entire state of Tennessee will be any less aware of the harmful existence of female breasts because they were "protected" by their parents from reading this work, whereas knowledge of what actually caused and happened during the Holocaust is a much more imperiled topic.

I know that you aren't in favor of book-banning, sohy, I hope you did not take my post, or this one, as an accusation to the contrary.

 

[TomC]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's a good idea to ban any books, regardless if some people find them offensive. That includes the liberals who are banning books because they have insulting racist or sexist terms in them.

Totally this.

I remember reading Maus. I was at least in my 30s. I came away thinking "Damn that was intense!" Those images were impactful in a way prose, however evocative, rarely is. I'd really prefer that young people had adult guidance when they read it. That's my biggest problem with dropping it from the curriculum.

But here's another thing. It's possible that the people who tried to get rid of it are hopelessly naive about the modern world. More likely, IMHO, is political grandstanding. This tempest in a teapot gives politicians a talking point that's high profile while utterly unimportant. "I stand with the good folks trying to keep filth out of our schools!" is probably something people will hear a lot of during campaign season.
And not just in Tennessee.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

But here's another thing. It's possible that the people who tried to get rid of it are hopelessly naive about the modern world. More likely, IMHO, is political grandstanding. This tempest in a teapot gives politicians a talking point that's high profile while utterly unimportant. "I stand with the good folks trying to keep filth out of our schools!" is probably something people will hear a lot of during campaign season.

Always. It has always been this way. It always will be. We have to be prepared to defend free inquiry at all times. Inertia alone will not keep it in place if capital is being levied toward uprooting it, and it always is.

 

[ZiprHead]

The author isn't in favor of banning books. She's just mentioned that banning books usually backfires and ends up giving the book more attention.

For example...

 

[TomC]

That includes the liberals who are banning books because they have insulting racist or sexist terms in them

Which does happen.
True story:

Back when I was on the board of the local NAACP branch, a local high school theatre dept. scheduled a production of To Kill A Mockingbird. It was a theatrical adaptation, exactly like the book, authorized by Harper Lee, licensed by French&co.

Local SJWs were so outraged by this that they managed to shut down the show. Their argument was "High School has a zero tolerance policy on the word "nigger"." SJW cancel culture at it's finest.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

Some students will only read a book if it is assigned to them and for some, only if it is provided to them by the school. Some students will not read any/much/all of a book assigned even if it's handed to them by the school but will absorb something from the book from class discussions.

Often, those are students who most need to have the book taught in class. Sometimes, they are the ones who need the lessons from the book the most.

 

[southernhybrid]

She's just mentioned that banning books usually backfires and ends up giving the book more attention.

Sometimes, sometimes not. I'm giving a lecture this very week, as it happens, on the history of Black publications in anthropology. Do you have any idea how many decades of advancement in the social sciences were set back because its primary movers and shakers were too Black, too Indian, too Queer, too Communist, or too Jewish to be considered acceptable for public consumption? I'm not worried that Maus is going to become suddenly unavailable, or Catcher in the Rye. They're highly visible works and have devoted fans. But not all books that make the banned list have a well-funded media campaign to defend them and provide free publicity when someone tries to take them off the shelves. And even they will ultimately be read by less students than would have been the case if they had stayed in the 8th grade curriculum. This sales bump is a temporary effect; the media will forget about the issue within a few weeks time but the ban will still be in effect. And I honestly, earnestly, do not believe that a single twelve-year old in the entire state of Tennessee will be any less aware of the harmful existence of female breasts because they were "protected" by their parents from reading this work, whereas knowledge of what actually caused and happened during the Holocaust is a much more imperiled topic.

I know that you aren't in favor of book-banning, sohy, I hope you did not take my post, or this one, as an accusation to the contrary.

No, I didn't think that. I just thought that you may have misunderstood my post. I wasn't suggesting that book banning always leads to an increase in sales of the book. It just often gives the book so much attention that more people want to read it and at least sometimes, that attention helps change things. I think you and I agree that banning books is a potentially dangerous assault on democracy and free speech.

I'm sure you are more aware of what publications have been banned due to the race or sexual orientation compared to what I am aware of, but even in my youth, nobody ever told us about Frederick Douglas's fantastic book, "Narrative of a Slave". I read it twice as an adult. It didn't make me feel guilty for being white. It made me angry. I think it should be required reading for all public school children in junior high or high school. It's better to learn about historical racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. from those who have experienced those things.

I'm not suggesting that only a Black person can write about racism or only a woman can write about sexism, or only a Jewish person can write about antisemitism, etc., but it's usually better to include the words of those who have experienced these things if you want a better understanding of the history of hateful times.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

Some students will only read a book if it is assigned to them and for some, only if it is provided to them by the school. Some students will not read any/much/all of a book assigned even if it's handed to them by the school but will absorb something from the book from class discussions.

Often, those are students who most need to have the book taught in class. Sometimes, they are the ones who need the lessons from the book the most.

That's true, but lots of students don't even read the books that are assigned to them to read. Most students are more influenced by their parents and peers than they are from their teachers, but sometimes an outstanding teacher can influence a student, so I agree that it's best to have a good variety of books assigned in school. It was never my intention to suggest that banning books is a good idea, even if sometimes banning books leads to a big increase in the sale of books.

I've mentioned that I almost finished a degree in English Lit. before I became a nurse. I don't remember ever being assigned to read one book written by a Black author or any minority author for that matter, not even in my World Lit classes. Hopefully, that's changed a lot since the 1960s. I've read a few fantastic books about racism that were written by Black authors, but they weren't fiction books. They were historical accounts about the extreme racism that existed and to some extent, still exists in all parts of the country.

 

[Toni]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

Some students will only read a book if it is assigned to them and for some, only if it is provided to them by the school. Some students will not read any/much/all of a book assigned even if it's handed to them by the school but will absorb something from the book from class discussions.

Often, those are students who most need to have the book taught in class. Sometimes, they are the ones who need the lessons from the book the most.

That's true, but lots of students don't even read the books that are assigned to them to read. Most students are more influenced by their parents and peers than they are from their teachers, but sometimes an outstanding teacher can influence a student, so I agree that it's best to have a good variety of books assigned in school. It was never my intention to suggest that banning books is a good idea, even if sometimes banning books leads to a big increase in the sale of books.

I've mentioned that I almost finished a degree in English Lit. before I became a nurse. I don't remember ever being assigned to read one book written by a Black author or any minority author for that matter, not even in my World Lit classes. Hopefully, that's changed a lot since the 1960s. I've read a few fantastic books about racism that were written by Black authors, but they weren't fiction books. They were historical accounts about the extreme racism that existed and to some extent, still exists in all parts of the country.

Oh, I never meant to imply that you thought that burning books was ever ok. I was just commenting on the fact that some students are only ever exposed to anything other than what their parents/family think at school. While I think that a lot of kids absorb much of their world view from their parents, not all do. My father was very conservative--except that he thought his daughters could do anything they wanted to do (unlike his opinion with regards to any of his wives) and.....none of us are remotely conservative, except for one who would say she's not but she up and joined LDS in her youth so.....yeah.

That said, my parents, and especially my father really encouraged us to think for ourselves. I think Dad was really....surprised when we came to different conclusions about how the world worked than he did. But we did absorb that lesson, plus the lessons of honesty, integrity, hard work, fairness, treating others the same as we want to be treated (despite his pronounced views on race, etc.). And the value of a good education, something my parents didn't really have a chance at for themselves and something they saw as extremely valuable for their offspring.

I'm not certain to what extent my views were influenced by my friends or classmates. There is always some self-sorting going on with regards to friends. I will say that my friends who stayed in our hometown tended to be fairly conservative. My friends who left, as I left: not so much.

 

[southernhybrid]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

Some students will only read a book if it is assigned to them and for some, only if it is provided to them by the school. Some students will not read any/much/all of a book assigned even if it's handed to them by the school but will absorb something from the book from class discussions.

Often, those are students who most need to have the book taught in class. Sometimes, they are the ones who need the lessons from the book the most.

That's true, but lots of students don't even read the books that are assigned to them to read. Most students are more influenced by their parents and peers than they are from their teachers, but sometimes an outstanding teacher can influence a student, so I agree that it's best to have a good variety of books assigned in school. It was never my intention to suggest that banning books is a good idea, even if sometimes banning books leads to a big increase in the sale of books.

I've mentioned that I almost finished a degree in English Lit. before I became a nurse. I don't remember ever being assigned to read one book written by a Black author or any minority author for that matter, not even in my World Lit classes. Hopefully, that's changed a lot since the 1960s. I've read a few fantastic books about racism that were written by Black authors, but they weren't fiction books. They were historical accounts about the extreme racism that existed and to some extent, still exists in all parts of the country.

Oh, I never meant to imply that you thought that burning books was ever ok. I was just commenting on the fact that some students are only ever exposed to anything other than what their parents/family think at school. While I think that a lot of kids absorb much of their world view from their parents, not all do. My father was very conservative--except that he thought his daughters could do anything they wanted to do (unlike his opinion with regards to any of his wives) and.....none of us are remotely conservative, except for one who would say she's not but she up and joined LDS in her youth so.....yeah.

That said, my parents, and especially my father really encouraged us to think for ourselves. I think Dad was really....surprised when we came to different conclusions about how the world worked than he did. But we did absorb that lesson, plus the lessons of honesty, integrity, hard work, fairness, treating others the same as we want to be treated (despite his pronounced views on race, etc.). And the value of a good education, something my parents didn't really have a chance at for themselves and something they saw as extremely valuable for their offspring.

I'm not certain to what extent my views were influenced by my friends or classmates. There is always some self-sorting going on with regards to friends. I will say that my friends who stayed in our hometown tended to be fairly conservative. My friends who left, as I left: not so much.

I didn't mean to imply that all kids were influenced by their parents and peers, but when kids are young, I do think that's usually the case. With age and maturity, kids will often question or rebel against what they were taught as children. My high school friends and I were very influenced by each other, much more than we were influenced by our parents. Several years ago, an old high school friend contacted me by email. After exchanging emails, we realized that we no longer had anything in common.

 

[Toni]

I read an opinion piece in the NYTImes this morning, written by a native of Tennessee, who opposes all book banning. She said that Maus has become the number one seller on Amazon and that there are some organizations who are giving free copies of the book to any child who wants one. I don't have time to find the link right now, as I'm heading out. I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

Depends which child we are talking about.

I guess that sometimes banning books helps increase book sales.

That's what I think.
You can't effectively ban books in the internet world. Efforts like this are more of an advertising campaign, like it or not.

It does not make sense to me to evaluate whether a rule is ethical based on whether it is easy to circumvent. Not every citizen will find it equally easy to steal or buy things on the internet, even if they know in advance what it is they want, and both are less likely to be true of children than adults. Will some children now read this book because their parents heard about the controversy and got curious enough to buy it for them? Maybe, but not as many as there would be if their teachers were allowed to introduce it to them the normal way.

Some students will only read a book if it is assigned to them and for some, only if it is provided to them by the school. Some students will not read any/much/all of a book assigned even if it's handed to them by the school but will absorb something from the book from class discussions.

Often, those are students who most need to have the book taught in class. Sometimes, they are the ones who need the lessons from the book the most.

That's true, but lots of students don't even read the books that are assigned to them to read. Most students are more influenced by their parents and peers than they are from their teachers, but sometimes an outstanding teacher can influence a student, so I agree that it's best to have a good variety of books assigned in school. It was never my intention to suggest that banning books is a good idea, even if sometimes banning books leads to a big increase in the sale of books.

I've mentioned that I almost finished a degree in English Lit. before I became a nurse. I don't remember ever being assigned to read one book written by a Black author or any minority author for that matter, not even in my World Lit classes. Hopefully, that's changed a lot since the 1960s. I've read a few fantastic books about racism that were written by Black authors, but they weren't fiction books. They were historical accounts about the extreme racism that existed and to some extent, still exists in all parts of the country.

Oh, I never meant to imply that you thought that burning books was ever ok. I was just commenting on the fact that some students are only ever exposed to anything other than what their parents/family think at school. While I think that a lot of kids absorb much of their world view from their parents, not all do. My father was very conservative--except that he thought his daughters could do anything they wanted to do (unlike his opinion with regards to any of his wives) and.....none of us are remotely conservative, except for one who would say she's not but she up and joined LDS in her youth so.....yeah.

That said, my parents, and especially my father really encouraged us to think for ourselves. I think Dad was really....surprised when we came to different conclusions about how the world worked than he did. But we did absorb that lesson, plus the lessons of honesty, integrity, hard work, fairness, treating others the same as we want to be treated (despite his pronounced views on race, etc.). And the value of a good education, something my parents didn't really have a chance at for themselves and something they saw as extremely valuable for their offspring.

I'm not certain to what extent my views were influenced by my friends or classmates. There is always some self-sorting going on with regards to friends. I will say that my friends who stayed in our hometown tended to be fairly conservative. My friends who left, as I left: not so much.

I didn't mean to imply that all kids were influenced by their parents and peers, but when kids are young, I do think that's usually the case. With age and maturity, kids will often question or rebel against what they were taught as children. My high school friends and I were very influenced by each other, much more than we were influenced by our parents. Several years ago, an old high school friend contacted me by email. After exchanging emails, we realized that we no longer had anything in common.

It's funny--my dearest friend and I have been friends since we met at age 13. Another very dear friend and I have been friends since....second grade! We were in school together from second grade through graduation and shared an apartment together for a year, in our 20's. Then we each moved and in those days, moving meant changing addresses and phone numbers with no internet connection and we fell out of touch for years. Too many moves between us. But we actually found each other again on Facebook. And the same for several of my friends that I had fallen out of touch with--no contact for periods of time but the chance to reconnect thanks in one way or another to the internet. With some of those friends, it's mostly nostalgia. But with a couple, there's a much deeper connection. They are the ones whose opinions matter to me, who I know will always have my back as I will always have theirs. I mean: a call in the dead of night and 15 minutes later, I'm driving hundreds of miles through a blizzard if necessary, loaded for bear if needed. Not that that's been needed but....yeah.