Horatio Parker
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The guy in the pic hasn't been to Syria. Completely different.
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Terror Attack on Train in Belgium Thwarted
- Thread starter Arctish
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The guy in the pic hasn't been to Syria. Completely different.
bilby
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If you are in the developed world, (as was the case here, with the train's route passing through only The Netherlands, Belgium and France) there is no such thing as an 'open carry rights demonstrator', nor indeed of 'open carry rights'; Any civilian in any of those nations who is openly carrying a gun in a public place without lawful excuse is guilty of a serious firearms offence, and subject to arrest and punishment on that ground alone, even if the weapon is unloaded and he has no intention of using it.
If you are in the USA, then your guess is as good as anyone's - if you take the gunman down then you might be a hero, or the instigator of an unprovoked assault.
RavenSky
The Doctor's Wife
How do you know he has not been to Syria?
TSwizzle
I am unburdened by what has been.
Horatio Parker
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Because he's not a terrorist. Open carry guys are patriots. Duh.
zorq
Veteran Member
Civil disobedience has a long standing tradition throughout the entire world especially in the pursuit of new civil rights. How do we know this guy didn't just want to show off his favorite toy in a peaceful way as a part of a civil rights demonstration?
Possession of contraband is a non-violent crime. Is it appropriate for tourists to attack and detain individuals they suspect are committing a non-violent crime while traveling on vacation?
The reports say the weapon was slung over the suspect's shoulder when he was attacked. The suspect was allegedly not aiming the firearm at anyone. The suspect began using his box cutter only after he was attacked by the Americans.
At this point I have only small doubt that the suspect was planning a violent crime, but that doesn't help me when using public transportation in the US and trying to identify threats to my safety.
laughing dog
Contributor
I don't. The jihadists make the news. But there are plenty of NGOs there, doing good work.Harry_Bosch;193882 said:
The West is not trying to help the ME: the West meddles to influence outcomes in their national interest. So, of course, the West should stop. But, of course, the West won't.Harry_Bosch;193882 said:
bilby
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Yeah, look, in the developed world, threats to personal safety from others on public transportation are very rare. Try just not being paranoid (if you are able - I know Americans struggle with that). Statistically you are far more of a danger to yourself than any other passenger is dangerous to you.
While you are scanning your fellow passengers for weapons, you should instead be watching your step so you don't trip, as trips and falls are statistically a far greater risk than crazed gunmen*.
*Developed world only - may not apply in the USA
zorq
Veteran Member
Okay, thanks for the help. But the next time I'm using public transportation and I see a person with a weapon capable of killing more than 10 people in less than ten seconds. I just want to summarize some options from this thread.
1. Kill him immediately because he is definitely a terrorist and is just as good dead as alive.
2. Quickly organize with the passengers near me to tackle and beat him into submission.
3. Ignore him because he is an open carry demonstrator (maybe only in the US).
4. Watch my head when retrieving my baggage from the overhead compartment and watch my step when exiting the vehicle.(if I'm in the developed world.)
5. Ask him if I can check the stamps in his passport then advance to choice 1. or 2. if he has a stamp from Syria. Advance to 3. or 4. if not.
6. Flee the area and lock any doors between myself and this man.(Like the guards on the train in the OP)
If this ever happens I think I'll roll a die and follow the course of action dictated by the number of pips that show.
So Doctors Without Borders don´t exist in your world?
Jimmy Higgins
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Neither were Elliot Rodger or James Holmes. These idiots seem to think we can read their mind when they open carry such weapons.
And how many people are we talking about? People without pressing business there aren't likely to go!
The traffic is basically going to be combatants and humanitarians.
Note that even the combatants generally don't go to Syria, but rather to Turkey and then across the land border. (The result being travel to Turkey is liable to get you extra scrutiny at border crossings.)
That doesn't mean we should criminalize such travel.
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The issue is where the weapon is. The guys who intervened realized there was an issue when they heard the sound of the bolt. One should not be messing with the bolt of a gun while simply carrying it.
Jimmy Higgins
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Two things:
1)You do realize the game was over if that gun didn't jam right. Hearing the bolt most likely wouldn't have given the people that stop the man from causing any more harm with his handgun any time had the main rifle not jammed. What the interveners did was tremendous stuff, but had the rifle not jammed, probably wouldn't have gotten the time to intervene in the first place. So this puts us back to square one.
2) How much warning are people like Holmes, Rodgers, Roof supposed to give? Wait for them to arm the weapon then we get to attack, if the weapon doesn't jam? The difference between the man in that photo from murdering a dozen people and just patrolling is roughly one second of action, if that.
bilby
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if you are going to base your worldview on such a narrow and unimaginative bunch of guesswork, then you are doomed to be wrong.
The traffic is basically going to be people who have family both inside and outside Syria; And people with business and trade interests in Syria.
It's a country. It may be fucked, but it's citizens still have to eat; doing business may be difficult, but it still happens.
People don't abandon ther families just because there's a war on, either.
Those are by far the largest groups who travel to Syria; they were the largest groups before the war, and while fewer of them travel to and fro since the war started, they remain the largest groups today.
The world is not as neat as you seem to want it to be. A war zone doesn't suddenly stop being an economic or residential zone. This is not a book or a movie, where only the things that affect the leading characters and the plot development happen. Life goes on; whether or not spectators half a world away give a shit about that fact.
How the fuck is crossing a land border not 'going to Syria'? What else can you do, if airlines are not flying because of the risk of being shot down? What else can you do, even absent a war, if you can't afford to buy airline tickets?
Only an extraordinarily privileged citizen of a wealthy nation would be so oblivious to reality as to suggest that if you walk or drive instead of flying across an international border, that somehow lessens the reality of your trip to the point of irrelevance.
They knew that attacking was very dangerous. They just considered it better than waiting there to die--the likely outcome of not attacking.
It takes more than a second to bring a rifle from a back sling to ready. Furthermore, simply transporting a weapon isn't a threat. Remember, these guys didn't react to the sight of a gun, but to the sound of it being made ready to fire.
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They get them out, they don't go back and forth while they are still there!
The border crossing is done covertly, it looks like travel to Turkey to the authorities.
Jimmy Higgins
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I appreciate you going to such a length to avoid the point. The thing I addressed in context to the white guy with the semi-automatic weapon was to note you said that on the train they heard the bolt... hence they were doomed and had to attack. In reality, that isn't enough warning. In the real world, seeing a guy with a semi-automatic should be enough to warrant a rush at the person. Because it'll only take a second for the guy to start killing people.
No... it doesn't.
You think a guy tossing fucking stones at the police is a threat. A naked man acting crazy is a threat. A black guy slowly walking towards the cops with hands in view is a threat. Now some mutherfuckin' white guy carrying a semi-automatic weapon isn't a threat?! Are you fucking kidding me?!
And in waiting for that sound, they would have died if not for the weapon jamming.
bilby
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Some people can't leave. Some won't. There is plenty of back-and-forth for this reason, and your ignorance of this fact is not really excusable. Do you think that every Syrian civilian has left the country? If not, then can you not see how that renders your piss-poor assumption highly implausible? People do not casually abandon their families. They come and go, while paying close attention to the changing circumstances to minimise their risks when doing so.
Just because some people cross the border covertly does not mean that this is the only - or even the majority - traffic across the border. Your ignorance is astonishing, and your persistence is worse. You clearly know nothing about the situation, but for some reason you think that your guesses are worth broadcasting, and have similar value to actual facts.
Right now, there are two fully open border crossings, and six restricted, out of the total nineteen official border crossing points between Turkey and Syria. https://www.humanitarianresponse.info/en/system/files/documents/files/turkey_syria_border_crossing_status_update_20150824.pdf
I know personally a man who has dual British/Syrian citizenship, and who owns a factory in Aleppo; He travels to Syria when he can, to visit family who are unwilling to leave their homes, and/or who cannot get a visa to live in the UK; and he also is trying to keep his business intact, and is providing assistance to his former employees, many of whom are also his friends. I can assure you he does not hide his travel plans from the UK, Syrian or Turkish authorities. There are vastly more people like him, trying to do the best they can for their families and friends in hugely difficult circumstances, than there are westerners trying to go to Syria to become jihadis.
You have made enough of a fool of yourself on this subject now, and should probably take your foot out of your mouth at this point, if you wish to retain any shred of respect.
Apparently you don't understand the situation.
The guy carrying the gun has the ability to do serious harm. However, simply transporting a weapon, even openly, says nothing about your intent to actually use it. So long as you are in an area where it's legal to be doing that you have no reason to think the weapon-bearer intends you any ill will.
The stone thrower, however, obviously does bear ill will towards the target of the stones.
The crazy is a more complex situation. If they're standing there shouting for Jesus to clean the mud off their clothes then there's no threat. However, in the sorts of situations we are talking about it's someone who is crazy and attacking those around him.
See the difference? Means isn't enough, hostility is required. Every driver going down the street has the means to kill nearby pedestrians, that doesn't mean the pedestrians should defend themselves against drivers.
laughing dog
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According to your arguments, if that driver appears threatening to them in any way, they can obliterate that driver.