The Biblical Flood Caused An Ice Age

[Swammerdami]

I found the comments on Abe Lincoln to be very interesting, and new to me. I learn much here at IIDB. Thank you! I did know that the Republicans nominated Lincoln because he was a moderate compared with the abolitionist William H. Seward. IIUC, Lincoln didn't propose emancipation until it became a leverage opportunity in the War.

Like Lincoln, most anti-slavery Northerners were NOT pro-equality. A notable exception was the pro-equality lay preacher John Brown, who helped operate the "Underground Railroad" and much more. I am (perversely!) proud that John Brown is my "collateral ancestor."

John Brown the Martyr is one of the most controversial characters in American history. He is often described as a "mad man" and "murderer." But he was highly admired by the leading intellectuals of his day, including Ralph Waldo Emerson who compared John Brown to -- guess who? -- Jesus the Christ

 

[pood]

I found the comments on Abe Lincoln to be very interesting, and new to me. I learn much here at IIDB. Thank you! I did know that the Republicans nominated Lincoln because he was a moderate compared with the abolitionist William H. Seward. IIUC, Lincoln didn't propose emancipation until it became a leverage opportunity in the War.

Like Lincoln, most anti-slavery Northerners were NOT pro-equality. A notable exception was the pro-equality lay preacher John Brown, who helped operate the "Underground Railroad" and much more. I am (perversely!) proud that John Brown is my "collateral ancestor."

John Brown the Martyr is one of the most controversial characters in American history. He is often described as a "mad man" and "murderer." But he was highly admired by the leading intellectuals of his day, including Ralph Waldo Emerson who compared John Brown to -- guess who? -- Jesus the Christ

Seward was not an abolitionist. None of the main Republican contenders for the 1860 nomination were. They were in agreement on one main fact, the underlying rationale of the newly founded Republican Party, which rose on the ashes of the Whig Party — to prevent the spread of slavery into the territories, which later of course would become states. The situation was specially dire because the infamous Dred Scott Supreme Court decision certainly implied, as Lincoln stressed, that NO ONE could prevent the spread of slavery not only into the territories, but into the North itself. That was the point of Lincoln’s famed “House Divided” speech.

 

[pood]

For anyone wishing to know much more about this era, I recommend Delores Kearns Goodwin’s “A Team of Rivals.”

 

[pood]

One of the true abolitionists in Congress was the estimable Thaddeus Stevens, who vigorously tangled with Lincoln and after that with Lincoln’s successor, Andrew Johnson, whose impeachment Stevens engineered. He is memorably depicted by Tommy Lee Jones in the move Lincoln, of course starring Daniel Day Lewis as Abe. Their scene discussing slavery in a basement while Stevens is drinking and the teetotaler Lincoln listens is wonderful. Stevens was personally engaged in all of this because he was sleeping with his black maid, as the movie also depicts.

 

[Swammerdami]

Sometimes I think if I wrote "2+2 = 4" my detractors here would invent a quibble!

Seward was not an abolitionist.

What was relevant in my post is that Seward was much more anti-slavery than Lincoln was.

I'm sure a whole pointless subthread could be -- and probably will be -- written about the definition of "abolitionist," but many -- including Seward himself -- did use that term to describe Seward. For examples:

An ardent abolitionist, Seward later served as New York’s 12th governor and then as a member of the U.S. Senate, where he established himself as a leading antislavery activist.

I early came to the conclusion that something was wrong with slavery and that determined me to be an abolitionist.

ETA: A nuanced statement might be "some considered ... some didn't." Would that be friendlier? Why the need for contradiction?

My objective was simply to mention that, despite common misconception, Lincoln was chosen BECAUSE he was moderate, and less likely to provoke war. I wrote "anti-slavery Seward" initially but then realized that Lincoln was also "anti-slavery" so changed the adjective.

 

[bilby]

Sometimes I think if I wrote "2+2 = 4" my detractors here would invent a quibble!

You need to be more consistent with your spacing; Do you mean "2 + 2 = 4", or "2+2=4"?

 

[Swammerdami]

Sometimes I think if I wrote "2+2 = 4" my detractors here would invent a quibble!

You need to be more consistent with your spacing; Do you mean "2 + 2 = 4", or "2+2=4"?

I use spaces in lieu of parentheses to show precedence. I wouldn't want anyone to think 2 + (2 = 4) was intended.

Go ahead, sue me. Be aware you must show that the error was to further an underlying felony if you want me in prison for more than a year in the State of New York.

 

[pood]

If we take “abolitionist” in the broad sense of the term, they were ALL abolitionists in that they wished slavery would go away. The idea of opposing the spread of slavery to the territories was that in preventing it from spreading, the “peculiar institution” would be economically and socially isolated and would eventually die out because ultimately it would become unprofitable. That theory was never tested, of course, and so we don’t know what would have happened. If, however, we take “abolitionist” in the narrow sense of wanting to actively move to abolish slavery in the South, rather than merely limit its spread to the territories, neither Lincoln nor Seward nor any of the leading Republican candidates were abolitionists in1860.

 

[pood]

Incidentally, one of the guys running for the GOP nomination in 1860 was named Cassius Clay. It would have been cool if he had been elected. Maybe halfway through his term he would have changed his name to Muhammad Ali.

 

[pood]

Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee; his guns can’t hit, what Lee can’t see.