The Biblical Flood Caused An Ice Age

[bilby]

However I'm afraid you've . . . well, "missed the boat" on the matter of why kangaroos weren't invited to Noah's party.

You see, Yahweh wasn't quite as Omnimax as he pretended to be and was completely unaware of the existence of Down-Under Land! Don't take this personally, Mr. B, but I'm afraid Australia was the creation of the Devil, Beelzebub himself.

Has anybody told Ken Ham?

 

[Swammerdami]

Noah's families situations would be considered incestuous by modern American standards, but the peoples of the ancient world did not regard cousin marriages as incest.

Many "primitive" people practiced some form of exogamy.

I thought the topic was interesting. (MUCH more interesting than the historicity of Lot's wives.) I was pleased to learn that "people of the ancient world did not regard cousin marriages as incest", but chose to mention two apparent exceptions to the rule: the Iroquois Nations, and DNA studies of families from 30,000 BC. (Google can find many more exceptions.)

Did early humans, or some vertebrates more generally, understand paternity? IIUC, the Iroquois banned marrying some of the same maternal clan, but not paternal.

Given thread topic, as shown in the title, my comment may have NOTHING to do with any Ice or Flood or even the Bible.
Let's Report the post to Moderation staff if this is a problem.

Many "primitive" people practiced some form of exogamy.

Dude, the ancient near east is only linked to the Iroquois by your imagination.

Perhaps it's my autism or lack of self-confidence, but I almost sense a whiff of anger in this sentence. Why? Why do I have a "tortured colonialist imagination"? Where did I connect the Iroquois to the Middle East? (Though all H. sapiens are close relatives. And Why does this matter anyway?)

I suppose Politesse's comment is directed at my mentions somehow being off-topic. Still, "Dude ... tortured colonialist" seems a bit stern.

 

[Politesse]

I suppose Politesse's comment is directed at my mentions somehow being off-topic. Still, "Dude ... tortured colonialist" seems a bit stern.

The sniff is at your casual use of the slur "primitive", and apparent belief that all cultures you consider primitive to be somehow analogous to one another, as though Haudenosaunee clan traditions and ancient Hebrew marriage customs had anything to do with each other. They do not.

 

[Swammerdami]

I suppose Politesse's comment is directed at my mentions somehow being off-topic. Still, "Dude ... tortured colonialist" seems a bit stern.

. . . apparent belief that all cultures you consider primitive to be somehow analogous to one another, as though Haudenosaunee clan traditions and ancient Hebrew marriage customs had anything to do with each other. They do not.

Here the operative word is "apparent." You are projecting. The question is Why.

 

[steve_bank]

What us the politically correct term for cultures that live today as they did centuries ago?
Aborigines in the Amazon.

In Nigeria there are nomadic herders live as thye have for centuries roaming with cattle, and who have violent conflict with farmers?

The tribal conflict between Iran(Persians) ad Saudi Arabia(Arabs) if not primitive going back centuries what do we call it?

If not primitive in an age of science what do e cal culture today who believe in a supernatural Jew dead for 2000 years?

Le many terms primitive can be a slur deeding on the context. Or it can refer to a relative set of living condition, practice, and beliefs. Mayans who practiced human sacrifice if not primitive by our modern standards are what?

If yiu are livng in a wikiup oit in the open with a trench for alatrinee and cooking rabit and snakes on a fire is that primive?

 

[Politesse]

What us the politically correct term for cultures that live today as they did centuries ago?
Aborigines in the Amazon.

In Nigeria there are nomadic herders live as thye have for centuries roaming with cattle, and who have violent conflict with farmers?

The tribal conflict between Iran(Persians) ad Saudi Arabia(Arabs) if not primitive going back centuries what do we call it?

If not primitive in an age of science what do e cal culture today who believe in a supernatural Jew dead for 2000 years?

Le many terms primitive can be a slur deeding on the context. Or it can refer to a relative set of living condition, practice, and beliefs. Mayans who practiced human sacrifice if not primitive by our modern standards are what?

If yiu are livng in a wikiup oit in the open with a trench for alatrinee and cooking rabit and snakes on a fire is that primive?

Perhaps you should ask some of the peoples whose cultures you are denigrating what they think of your blood-stained empire...

 

[southernhybrid]

Sorry you aren't as woke as Politesse, Swarmmadami. I took it that you simply used the term primitive to mean ancient, as in a long time ago, not as a slur. I don't think it was meant as an insult, unless you're ultra woke and take words out of the context in which they were meant.

I'm pretty sure that some of my Irish and British ancestors came from backgrounds known as "poor white trash". Am I denigrating my own people or just using a term that the British used for them?

Okay. The Iroquois weren't primitive in the most modern definition of the word, but they certainly were a patriarchal, often cruel society according to Encyclopedia Britannica. Try being a woman for awhile and see what we have to deal with from men, as it seems as if society is becoming more patriarchal again these days. Shit. We couldn't even get the ERA passed and we are still often treated as second class citizens. I doubt the Iroquois would be so offended by the misusage of a term that wasn't meant the way you took it.

Of course, we are all off topic now, but why do you make such judgments against other posters without at least questioning their intent, Politesse? I felt your comment was very unfair to Swarmmerdami.



https://www.britannica.com/topic/Iroquois-people

As was typical of Northeast Indians before colonization, the Iroquois were semisedentary agriculturists who palisaded their villages in time of need. Each village typically comprised several hundred persons. Iroquois people dwelt in large longhouses made of saplings and sheathed with elm bark, each housing many families. The longhouse family was the basic unit of traditional Iroquois society, which used a nested form of social organization: households (each representing a lineage) were divisions of clans, several clans constituted each moiety, and the two moieties combined to create a tribe.


Britannica Quiz
Native American History Quiz

Groups of men built houses and palisades, fished, hunted, and engaged in military activities. Groups of women produced crops of corn (maize), beans, and squash, gathered wild foods, and prepared all clothing and most other residential goods. After the autumn harvest, family deer-hunting parties ranged far into the forests, returning to their villages at midwinter. Spring runs of fish drew families to nearby streams and lake inlets.



Kinship and locality were the bases for traditional Iroquois political life. Iroquois speakers were fond of meetings, spending considerable time in council. Council attendance was determined by locality, sex, age, and the specific question at hand; each council had its own protocol and devices for gaining consensus, which was the primary mode of decision-making.


The elaborate religious cosmology of the Iroquois was based on an origin tradition in which a woman fell from the sky; other parts of the religious tradition featured delugeand earth-diver motifs, supernatural aggression and cruelty, sorcery, torture, cannibalism, star myths, and journeys to the otherworld. The formal ceremonial cycle consisted of six agricultural festivals featuring long prayers of thanks. There were also rites for sanctioning political activity, such as treaty making.


Warfare was important in Iroquois society, and, for men, self-respect depended upon achieving personal glory in war endeavours. War captives were often enslaved or adopted to replace dead family members. Losses to battle and disease increased the need for captives, who had become a significant population within Iroquois settlements by the late 17th century.

 

[Politesse]

Sorry you aren't as woke as Politesse, Swarmmadami. I took it that you simply used the term primitive to mean ancient, as in a long time ago, not as a slur.

The Iroquois - and their customary convention of avoiding marriages within clan - are alive and well, and fight for self-determination and national recognition are directly harmed by popular myths about their culture being inherently inferior to those of white North Americans.

I'm disappointed to hear the word "woke" coming from your lips, Sohy. Have you decided to go full on unhinged conservative these days?

 

[Politesse]

I'm pretty sure that some of my Irish and British ancestors came from backgrounds known as "poor white trash". Am I denigrating my own people or just using a term that the British used for them?

I don't use that word either, nor would I encourage others to do so.

Are you saying you wouldn't mind if I called you "white trash" (sic), and compared you to other peoples I classed similarly? Not ironically, not as a joke, but as a straightforward classification of your social rank? Because I think you should take umbrage with such labels, you deserve more dignity tgat to be summed up and dismissed with a disgusting pejorative.

I'm not above insulting people from time to time, but when I do, I like to think it is an intentional act, and tied to something they actually did or said, not because of the conditions of their birth.

 

[Elixir]

Trash is an insult. People are garbage.

 

[southernhybrid]

Sorry you aren't as woke as Politesse, Swarmmadami. I took it that you simply used the term primitive to mean ancient, as in a long time ago, not as a slur.

The Iroquois - and their customary convention of avoiding marriages within clan - are alive and well, and fight for self-determination and national recognition are directly harmed by popular myths about their culture being inherently inferior to those of white North Americans.

I'm disappointed to hear the word "woke" coming from your lips, Sohy. Have you decided to go full on unhinged conservative these days?

Yeah, sure. I'm voting red down the line. /s. Don't take me so seriously Politesse. I have a sense of humor and was teasing you. Still, there are some people these days who tend to over react to anything that's outside their narrow viewpoint. That goes for both sides.

Maybe you need to get a better sense of humor too, as humor helps us cope, even in the worst of times, even sometimes when we are dying, people use humor to cope. I honestly hope you have a good sense of humor because more evidence is coming out that humor is actually one of the best medicines we have to help us cope and it may even help people recover from illnesses. We just need more research on that topic.

I just felt as if you were being unfair to Swarmma, as I think he simply meant ancient when he used the term primitive. Plus, the word primitive has multiple meanings, just like many words do. I didn't take it to mean he was trying to be insulting to any group of people. You could have asked him instead of jumping to conclusions about the usage of word he used. None of the past societies were all that great, especially our founders. These days we have White Christian Nationalists, although many are victims of intense indoctrination. The founders exploited Black people, poor white people as well as tribes who lived here before us. But do we really even know who was here prior to them? You probably know more about that compared to me, but the little I've read suggests there were even earlier groups of people living here prior to the tribes we now refer to as Native Americans. But, perhaps we need a thread about that. I like dogs better than humans. That's how little I think of humans, as a species.

I love cultural diversity and don't find any group of people to be inferior to white people, regardless of where they come from and I think what the Europeans did to the earlier inhabitants of this part of the world was horrific to say the least, despite being raised in NJ, a state that to this day celebrates Columbus. But, as I've said before, humans are a brutal species who do great harm to their own kind, based on shades of skin, language, culture, religious mythology, etc.

I still think that women are often treated much worse than any male group with the possible exception of some of the very early matrilineal societies that are currently being researched. I'm just asking you not to judge what others say without trying to understand them. Sometimes people see things from a different perspective or don't always use certain words like you do. Can you dig it?

Forgive us for going so off topic. Most of us tend to do that. I guess we can't help ourselves.

 

[southernhybrid]

I'm pretty sure that some of my Irish and British ancestors came from backgrounds known as "poor white trash". Am I denigrating my own people or just using a term that the British used for them?

I don't use that word either, nor would I encourage others to do so.

Are you saying you wouldn't mind if I called you "white trash" (sic), and compared you to other peoples I classed similarly? Not ironically, not as a joke, but as a straightforward classification of your social rank? Because I think you should take umbrage with such labels, you deserve more dignity tgat to be summed up and dismissed with a disgusting pejorative.

I'm not above insulting people from time to time, but when I do, I like to think it is an intentional act, and tied to something they actually did or said, not because of the conditions of their birth.

I honestly don't care what anyone calls me because I have enough self esteem not to let it bother me. My sister and I recently decided that at least on our father's side, we came from poor white trash, a term that came from the 1600s, and was used by the British elite. So, sure I'm proud to come from poor white trash and have been able to overcome the stigma that is usually attached to it. I can laugh about it. Btw, most of my friends are poor or have far less financial security compared to my husband and I. Most of them have far less formal education than we do and many of them are Black or mixed race. I find them to be more interesting and fun to be around compared to the highly educated white people who I've known, with few exceptions. They tend to be kinder, friendlier and less judgmental. It's a privilege to know these folks.

I have been interacting with a hardcore Trump supporter lately. We have both agreed that we can discuss politics without hating each other or making negative generalizations about each other. She has been indoctrinated by her source of "news" and possibly by her religion, as she is a conservative Christian, who probably believes in the story of Noah and the Ark. ( See I'm trying to stay on topic )I may not to be able to knock some sense into her, but I'd at least like to try and help her understand that Trump is a danger to the country. You don't change or help people by insulting them. At least we have both been using humor in our brief discussions. I know she's a decent person and it's sad that so many poor white people have been indoctrinated into supporting such a psychopathic narcissist. Okay. Does anyone want to get back on topic about the myth of Noah and the Ark?

 

[Politesse]

I honestly don't care what anyone calls me because I have enough self esteem not to let it bother me. My sister and I recently decided that at least on our father's side, we came from poor white trash, a term that came from the 1600s, and was used by the British elite. So, sure I'm proud to come from poor white trash and have been able to overcome the stigma that is usually attached to it. I can laugh about it. Btw, most of my friends are poor or have far less financial security compared to my husband and I.

And you call your poor friends "white trash"? How on earth do you keep them?

You don't change or help people by insulting them.

Such as by calling them by classist and racist slurs? Two things in your head are not synthesizing here. I entirely agree that calling people by slurs does not advance the resolution of social problems. That's why I don't, and why I don't approve of other people who do.

Does anyone want to get back on topic about the myth of Noah and the Ark?

The story isn't dangerous because of its content. By itself, it's just a story. What makes it dangerous is how its used. And the myths about the races of man and the denigration of some of them are deeply and fundamentally tied to the ark mythos. One century ago, damn near every American you know would have been intimately familiar with the story of Noah and his son Ham. Because it was quoted at them all the time in defense of Jim Crow in general and the segregation of the churches in particular.

 

[Politesse]

Maybe you need to get a better sense of humor too, as humor helps us cope, even in the worst of times, even sometimes when we are dying, people use humor to cope.

I laugh at a lot of things, Sohy. Racism just isn't one of them. The joke stopped being funny when we elected the chief clown president. It got even less funny when he stacked the court with religious loons (and a barely closeted rapist) whose overt goals are to strip us all of our civil rights. Am I supposed to go laughing all the way to the camps, like Roberto Benigni? These people pretend its all just a joke, until they get a bit of power. By the time you find out you were being laughed at, not with, it's too late to do anything about it.

 

[Politesse]

I love cultural diversity and don't find any group of people to be inferior to white people

Believe it or not, your neighbors may not come away with the impression that you "love cultural diversity" when you call their cultures primitive, or trash for that matter.

 

[Swammerdami]

Sorry you aren't as woke as Politesse, Swarmmadami. I took it that you simply used the term primitive to mean ancient, as in a long time ago, not as a slur. I don't think it was meant as an insult, unless you're ultra woke and take words out of the context in which they were meant.

Thanks for the clarification, southernhybrid. Frankly I often find Politesse's comments confusing and/or confused. The only way I could make sense of his remarks is that he was somehow equating "ancient" with "Middle Eastern", which is of course nonsensical. Then I wondered whether he thought introducing the Iroquois even as an example was a hijack since the "Biblical flood", while allegedly worldwide (and indeed part of the broad-ranging Laurasian mythology) points at the Middle East.

I think more than one of us here often takes shortcuts here when writing or reading. Better is to be more generous, and allow for minor mental lapses. OTOH, I'm pretty sure Politesse regards me as some sort of imbecile, so best may be to just Ignore each other.

As for my use of the word "primitive" I've quoted my usage in this thread below where we see

"primitive" ... not particularly primitive

FIRST I put the word in quotes THEN I admit that my example was NOT particularly primitive. If the accusation is that I was accusing the Iroquois of being primitive, I think I can plead Not Guilty. (Putting words in quotation-marks is one of my many bad habits. I think I did it here in part as shorthand for There's surely a better adjective here than "primitive" but I'm too lazy or hurried to think of it.)

Noah's families situations would be considered incestuous by modern American standards, but the peoples of the ancient world did not regard cousin marriages as incest.

Many "primitive" people practiced some form of exogamy. The Iroquois, for example, required that a mate be selected OUTSIDE one's Clan. The Iroqois are not particularly primitive, but DNA studies on ancient skeletons have demonstrated that exogamy was practiced in the Early Stone Age.

Here I've reddened the false claim and my response. Only later did Politesse clarify that "ancient" means "Middle Eastern."

 

[Politesse]

The only way I could make sense of his remarks is that he was somehow equating "ancient" with "Middle Eastern", which is of course nonsensical.

We were discussing the ancient near east from the start. You know, where the flood mythos originated? You were the one who brought up the Iroquois (who are also modern, not ancient, cultures). Why would the cultures of the Haudenosaunee be relevant to interpreting a Hebrew story from antiquity, even if you hadn't used unfortunate language to describe them?

 

[Swammerdami]

The only way I could make sense of his remarks is that he was somehow equating "ancient" with "Middle Eastern", which is of course nonsensical.

We were discussing the ancient near east from the start. You know, where the flood mythos originated? You were the one who brought up the Iroquois (who are also modern, not ancient, cultures). Why would the cultures of the Haudenosaunee be relevant to interpreting a Hebrew story from antiquity, even if you hadn't used unfortunate language to describe them?

OK. So your "ancient" did mean "Middle Eastern," despite that Middle East wasn't mentioned in any nearby paragraph. Many of us have a less complicated approach to English composition.

Still, your complaint makes no sense when we look at my response to which it was rejoinder. With Red already taken, I've used a large Purple font to denote words which you were evidently unable to understand in context:

Noah's families situations would be considered incestuous by modern American standards, but the peoples of the ancient world did not regard cousin marriages as incest.

Many "primitive" people practiced some form of exogamy. The Iroquois, for example, required that a mate be selected OUTSIDE one's Clan. The Iroqois are not particularly primitive, but DNA studies on ancient skeletons have demonstrated that exogamy was practiced in the Early Stone Age.

Here I've reddened the false claim and my response. Only later did Politesse clarify that "ancient" means "Middle Eastern."

While I failed to understand that your "ancient" meant "Middle Eastern," if you re-read the excerpt in an objective mood, I'm sure you'll agree that you could have avoided confusion had you guessed that by "many" I meant "many," and by "for example" I meant "for example."

Paragraphs should be self-contained. While my response arguably made the mistake of assuming "ancient" meant "ancient" rather than "Middle Eastern," it shouldn't have required much effort on your part to see that my paragraph was a response to your paragraph as written. Yet you felt some need to "double down."

... your tortured colonialist imagination.

Since this subthread is aimed at improving your ability to read and write English, let me also suggest you avoid useless and baseless pejoratives in future.

 

[Politesse]

Since this subthread is aimed at improving your ability to read and write English, let me also suggest you avoid useless and baseless pejoratives in future.

Like "primitive"? I will if you will.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

I would say it's the other way. The melting ice caused a flood. Noah was imaginary.