The Case for Christianity

[TomC]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Because it's fun to torture them, over alcohol, with facts and critical thinking?
Sorry, I prolly shouldn't enjoy that.
Tom

 

[WAB]

I meant that I didn't get the same impression of Brunswick that you did. In fact not even close.

Oh, okay.
I got bored with his religion awhile back and prolly didn't keep up.
He can call it whatever he wants, but it's not Christianity.
Tom

Well maybe if we're lucky more and more believers will water down Christianity until it becomes relatively harmless? Let them keep watering it down.

 

[TomC]

I meant that I didn't get the same impression of Brunswick that you did. In fact not even close.

Oh, okay.
I got bored with his religion awhile back and prolly didn't keep up.
He can call it whatever he wants, but it's not Christianity.
Tom

Well maybe if we're lucky more and more believers will water down Christianity until it becomes relatively harmless? Let them keep watering it down.

That's not what is happening in the country I live in. I'm pretty sure that Christian Domininists and Teaparty evangelical zealots are recognizing that they can use Christian beliefs to their advantage, so they are.
Tom

 

[GenesisNemesis]

And whether the dishonesty is intentional or not, we can still say it is highly untrustworthy. Thus, someone I would not want to be around due to their untrustworthiness.

 

[WAB]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Okay.

I just mean it's a positive thing that believers can modify their beliefs toward liberality and universalism than that all of them remain orthodox and dangerous, like the Dominionists.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

Cool, don't care. It doesn't take long to just ask someone what they actually believe.

 

[WAB]

Okay.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

Cool, don't care. It doesn't take long to just ask someone what they actually believe.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think Bruns is much more concerned about what they think than anyone here.

I'm concerned when someone spreads misinformation. And misinfo about atheism. Apparently that's unreasonable to you.

 

[TomC]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

Cool, don't care. It doesn't take long to just ask someone what they actually believe.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think Bruns is much more concerned about what they think than anyone here.

I don't care about your opinions, or Bruns, on this subject anymore than you care about mine. I certainly don't want all Christians to be hardcore Orthodox, but I wouldn't care if they were solidly with Jesus and His teachings about taking care of the least, not judging, and loving your neighbors. I'd welcome that.
Tom

 

[ideologyhunter]

I suspect that most of us on this site are both apathetic and uninvested in whatever theology is proposed by the believers who wander in from the Faith Highway. Anyway I am. A certain not-to-be-named gentleman who was here a few months ago made exhaustive faith claims. Did the rest of us really care? I don't care what someone thinks about his/her Bible. I don't think the God narrative or the Jesus narrative are based in reality, so I don't care how they are rationalized. I feel the same toward the church folks in my little town. It just doesn't matter. (Yes, the enactment of crazy laws or taxpayer-supported religion matters. But the fact that believers gonna believe? Let 'em.)

 

[WAB]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

Cool, don't care. It doesn't take long to just ask someone what they actually believe.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think Bruns is much more concerned about what they think than anyone here.

I'm concerned when someone spreads misinformation. And misinfo about atheism. Apparently that's unreasonable to you.

Okay. If the misinformation is the problem, then make an argument, present your case? Like pood, like No Holy Cows? I'm not presenting my case, or arguing with theists anymore, although I used to here, for pages and pages, because I'm old and not as bothered by people who believe silly things. But if I felt such indignation and took such offense as you, I'd be trying to change Brunz's mind.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Regardless, why would I "have a beer" with someone who thinks so lowly of me? That I need god in order to have morality? Why would I have a beer with someone like that? That's insane to me.

Also, if I may, they're really not judging you so much as rationalizing their own beliefs to themselves. IMO.

Cool, don't care. It doesn't take long to just ask someone what they actually believe.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I think Bruns is much more concerned about what they think than anyone here.

I'm concerned when someone spreads misinformation. And misinfo about atheism. Apparently that's unreasonable to you.

Okay. If the misinformation is the problem, then make an argument, present your case? Like pood, like No Holy Cows? I'm not presenting my case, or arguing with theists anymore, although I used to here, for pages and pages, because I'm old and not as bothered by people who believe silly things. But if I felt such indignation and took such offense as you, I'd be trying to change Brunz's mind.

The argument's already been made by people more eloquent than me and if Brunz actually cared about investigation, he would have done his research already and seen the arguments himself. It's a tired old argument that's already been debunked countless times. Thus why I'm not being charitable to Brunz, because he seemingly hasn't done the research, which would have been very easy to do, yet he went along with his absolutist assertion anyway.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

And also there's no real way I can "prove" I am moral, philosophically speaking. But neither is there a way to prove I am "immoral" either.

 

[pood]

My understanding, from the Bible, is that you don't have to believe in God in order to get into heaven. God exists, whether you believe it or not. And if you believe that our universe is governed by rules, and that we should live morally, you believe in God, whether you know it or not. And if you live that way, you will go to heaven, whether you want to or not.

Got it so you're just another arrogant piece of shit who assumes they know other peoples' beliefs are without asking them.

Yeah, that is kinda what it looks like to me.

@Brunswick1954 is yet another Internet pundit who thinks that they know more about God and the Bible than the Pope and Billy Graham put together.

Weird. I don't get that at all. I could sit and have a beer with Brunswick.

Claiming that if we have morality we believe in god is literally on the same level of bad faith as William Lane Craig. I could not "have a beer" with someone so dishonest. That's not someone who is friendly, either. A friendly person would not assert I need god in order to have morality.

I think you are drawing too hasty conclusions about what he said. You seem to be thinking that he said you believe in God whether you admit it or not. But actually he said whether you know it or not.

His argument seems to be that if you believe in morality, and do so live, then you believe in God whether you know it or not, because God is morality and vice versa.

That’s silly if God is meant to be taken literally, but OK if is meant to me taken metaphorically like Lincoln’s “better angels of our natures,” where Lincoln is not implying the literal existence of winged seraphim.

Of course, he does seem to mean a literal God, but as I said, for me, that’s just silly, and not intentionally insulting.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

My understanding, from the Bible, is that you don't have to believe in God in order to get into heaven. God exists, whether you believe it or not. And if you believe that our universe is governed by rules, and that we should live morally, you believe in God, whether you know it or not. And if you live that way, you will go to heaven, whether you want to or not.

Got it so you're just another arrogant piece of shit who assumes they know other peoples' beliefs are without asking them.

Yeah, that is kinda what it looks like to me.

@Brunswick1954 is yet another Internet pundit who thinks that they know more about God and the Bible than the Pope and Billy Graham put together.

Weird. I don't get that at all. I could sit and have a beer with Brunswick.

Claiming that if we have morality we believe in god is literally on the same level of bad faith as William Lane Craig. I could not "have a beer" with someone so dishonest. That's not someone who is friendly, either. A friendly person would not assert I need god in order to have morality.

Of course, he does seem to mean a literal God, but as I said, for me, that’s just silly, and not intentionally insulting.

Again, don't give a single shit if it's intentional or not. There are people who have been through religious abuse and many of them are rather tired of being told how worthless they are because they don't have god in their life. I haven't been through religious abuse myself though, just regular old abuse. However, I can empathize with them.

 

[pood]

My understanding, from the Bible, is that you don't have to believe in God in order to get into heaven. God exists, whether you believe it or not. And if you believe that our universe is governed by rules, and that we should live morally, you believe in God, whether you know it or not. And if you live that way, you will go to heaven, whether you want to or not.

Got it so you're just another arrogant piece of shit who assumes they know other peoples' beliefs are without asking them.

Yeah, that is kinda what it looks like to me.

@Brunswick1954 is yet another Internet pundit who thinks that they know more about God and the Bible than the Pope and Billy Graham put together.

Weird. I don't get that at all. I could sit and have a beer with Brunswick.

Claiming that if we have morality we believe in god is literally on the same level of bad faith as William Lane Craig. I could not "have a beer" with someone so dishonest. That's not someone who is friendly, either. A friendly person would not assert I need god in order to have morality.

Of course, he does seem to mean a literal God, but as I said, for me, that’s just silly, and not intentionally insulting.

Again, don't give a single shit if it's intentional or not. There are people who have been through religious abuse and many of them are rather tired of being told how worthless they are because they don't have god in their life. I haven't been through religious abuse myself though, just regular old abuse. However, I can empathize with them.

Well, I don’t think he is saying that, but whatever.

I could be wrong. At any time he could haul in the toothless old howitzer of Pascal’s Wager and hellfire, but he hasn’t done that yet, at any rate.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Yeah, you all are being delusionally charitable.

 

[TomC]

Yeah, you all are being delusionally charitable.

Those darned atheists...
Tom

 

[WAB]

My understanding, from the Bible, is that you don't have to believe in God in order to get into heaven. God exists, whether you believe it or not. And if you believe that our universe is governed by rules, and that we should live morally, you believe in God, whether you know it or not. And if you live that way, you will go to heaven, whether you want to or not.

Got it so you're just another arrogant piece of shit who assumes they know other peoples' beliefs are without asking them.

Yeah, that is kinda what it looks like to me.

@Brunswick1954 is yet another Internet pundit who thinks that they know more about God and the Bible than the Pope and Billy Graham put together.

Weird. I don't get that at all. I could sit and have a beer with Brunswick.

Claiming that if we have morality we believe in god is literally on the same level of bad faith as William Lane Craig. I could not "have a beer" with someone so dishonest. That's not someone who is friendly, either. A friendly person would not assert I need god in order to have morality.

How dishonest? If someone believes something and expresses that belief, they are NOT being dishonest. In fact, they are being honest, if it's something they believe. This is twice I've touched on this.

If someone believes one thing and professes another, then That is dishonesty. Hypocrisy even.

I don't disagree with you that Bruns is wrong, only I believe people have the right to be wrong, and even to utter things that are not correct. Also of course you have the right to argue, and try to set them straight.

 

[pood]

Yeah, you all are being delusionally charitable.

I maintain that so far, it’s essentially anodyne, as when — to invoke Lincoln (not a Christian) again — he said, “When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.”