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The Case for Christianity

In the U.S., cancer isn't the leading killer of infants...not even close. The bigger picture would include birth defects, low birth weight, SIDS, and birth complications (these four top the list), but also pertussis, pneumonia, genetic disorders (which overlaps with the neuromuscular diseases), cerebral palsy, etc. In the Third World, which the world's richest man said Fuck You to, four months ago, (with the implicit backing of the Christian right voters) many infants battle for life against malnutrition and AIDS.
It's almost like we're existing in an uncaring, unplanned universe, and we're fending for ourselves when we can direct our best thinking, science, and empathy and dollars to solving our problems.
Now let's have a helping o' them thoughts 'n' prayers.
 
In the U.S., cancer isn't the leading killer of infants...not even close. The bigger picture would include birth defects, low birth weight, SIDS, and birth complications (these four top the list), but also pertussis, pneumonia, genetic disorders (which overlaps with the neuromuscular diseases), cerebral palsy, etc. In the Third World, which the world's richest man said Fuck You to, four months ago, (with the implicit backing of the Christian right voters) many infants battle for life against malnutrition and AIDS.
It's almost like we're existing in an uncaring, unplanned universe, and we're fending for ourselves when we can direct our best thinking, science, and empathy and dollars to solving our problems.
Now let's have a helping o' them thoughts 'n' prayers.

Thoughts and prayers to them, even though all those you mentioned are responsible for their own suffering and deaths because of their bad habits.
 
“Learner” night be interested to learn — though I doubt it — that tumor evolution, natural selection of tumors resistant to therapies, is an agent in the spread of cancer. Not only is cancer consistent with evolution, it is at least in part explained by it.
 
Christians always dance around the basic question.

If god who is all knowing and seeing created the Earth, why brain cancer and crippling birth defects in kids?

There is no defensible moral answer.
 
“Learner” night be interested to learn — though I doubt it — that tumor evolution, natural selection of tumors resistant to therapies, is an agent in the spread of cancer. Not only is cancer consistent with evolution, it is at least in part explained by it.
I was interested a while ago.

I mean... I understood natural selection meant that, let's say for individuals (humans in this example) in a population vary genetically and phenotypically, and those with traits that better facilitate survival and reproductive success are more likely to pass on these traits to the next generation.

I think we can call this flukeness from an atheists position.
 
Natural selection 'didn't phase this out' for the poor child unfortunately.
I agree. God doesn't give babies cancer, Nature gives babies cancer.

The problem with religion, or at least mainstream Christianity, is that it posits a God, a being that can make it so babies don't get cancer, but doesn't. Why does God let babies get cancer is a good question to ask a theist, though to ask an atheist it's nonsense.
 
We all die.... how.. is dependent by the lives we lead.
Where do you get that idea from? Hitler killed himself at the age of 56. Idi Amin died at the age of 75, from an illness. Children die of leukemia at the age of 4.

How one dies can be a reflection on how one lived, but for most people, it isn't.
Joe Stalin lived to 74, and died having never been seriously challenged over, much less punished for, his crimes. He lived a life of luxury and privilege, and his iron control of the Soviet Union and its satellites in Eastern Europe actually outlived him - the hugely popular composer, S. S. Prokofiev, died on the ssme day as Stalin, and the newspapers didn't print his obituary because they were terrified of the consequences if they were seen to be covering any other deaths than that of Uncle Joe.

Did God approve of the life Stalin led?
 
That’s the line we must keep clear, if we truly want to pursue both intellectual honesty and spiritual integrity.

NHC
Absolutely. And it's good to hear from you. I will leave you to find flaws and inconsistencies in my argument then.

The Sermon on the Mount
Generally, it is felt that Jesus’s core message is found in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7). It stands out because it's the inaugural sermon that he gave, according to Matthew. Luke gives a shorter version (Luke 6:17–49) and sets it in the plains, while the other two Gospels don’t include it. This inconsistency suggests to me that those who collated the Bible weren’t trying to construct a coherent message but wanted to keep what was true, not make it neat. They collated what was best taught at that time. They did not try to reframe the message. It's not proof, of course, but I think a reasonable conclusion.

The thing was, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. To the Jews, the Messiah they were waiting for was meant to save them from the Romans, much as Moses did from the Egyptians, and conquer the world - a bigger and better king than David. Jesus was meant to make Judaism the global religion. But instead of talking up the Jewish mantle, he had a message for all people, and instead of uplifting Judaism, he called them to repent (Matthew 4:17).

The Sermon began with the Beatitudes: blessings on the poor, the sad, the humble (Matthew 5:3–12). We ask why a loving God allows suffering, especially on those who are innocent. Jesus pointed to them and blessed and praised them. It sounds upside down, but children often understand this easily. It's obvious to a child that the innocent are disadvantaged in this world and ought to be blessed.

This is later followed by the Antitheses. Jesus denounces moral behaviour as hypocrisy. That even our thoughts betray us (Matthew 5:21–48). We might think this is an impossible expectation. But again, children see it as obvious and just. That moral behaviour with immoral thoughts is hypocrisy and to be condemned.

Then, Jesus says that we should not display our goodness. It should be quiet - not to impress people, but to please God. Pray in secret. Give in secret. Fast in secret. Trust God (Matthew 6:1–6, 16–18). Don’t chase money, chase God (Matthew 6:24).

He further adds that we are not to worry. God knows what we need and will take care of us (Matthew 6:25–34). We can't help but worry about where our next meal is going to come from. How can we not worry about the future? However, worry is often counterproductive, and trying to stop worrying is a cornerstone in self-help and counselling. To thrive in our lives, we need to manage our worries and look on the positive side. To help us do this, we are often encouraged to be grateful and keep a gratitude journal. In times of trouble, this is very difficult. It is much easier to pray and depend on God. And we teach our children to pray to help build this trust in God.

The pinnacle of the Sermon is the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9–13). What is most startling about the prayer is that the only part where we are asked to do something is to forgive others. And this is in direct relationship with the forgiveness of our sins (Matthew 6:14–15). The key to God's favour is not moral goodness, but grace. Jesus didn't ask us to strive to be good. It seems as if we are expected to fail on that score. The key to heaven is not righteousness but our ability to forgive our enemies. This is crucial, because being able to forgive is the key to freedom and peace of mind. It's a very difficult ask. But one that we need to teach our children as they get into fights and quarrels in their young lives. Everything else comes from God. We are to ask for, and depend on God for the rest.

Then he says something very strange: Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We need to consider this carefully. Perfection for us is about being faultless. Perfection, to Jesus, is about forgiving others. In all other ways, we are already perfect. We are already whole, complete, and he asked us to lean on God so that we can grow into who we are meant to be.

That’s the big idea: we become our true selves not by chasing our dreams, but by following God. Our true self is not self-determined but discovered through following God. We are not given carte blanche. We are asked to choose.

This is the crux, and liberating. Don't strive for material gain. Instead, just live your life as best you can. Love one another and don't carry grudges. Don't worry, and if you live like that, everything else will fall into place. Stop trying to “be someone” and instead let God shape who we are. The more we are like Jesus, the more we become our true selves.

The modern world tells us to strive harder, reach out for success, and you will get there. You just need to work harder, be more determined, focused and disciplined. But this often leaves us anxious and alone. And even when we get there, if we get there, it's disappointing and depressing. Jesus tells us of another way: trust God, and He will lead the way.

The whole of Jesus's teaching hangs on God. With God, we are existentially whole - morally, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Even physically and materially. Without God, it all falls apart.
 
In the U.S., cancer isn't the leading killer of infants...
Per 2019 data: That while congenital malformations, low birth weight, and sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) are significant causes of death for infants under one year old in the U.S., unintentional injuries become the leading cause of death in the older infant and toddler age groups (1-4 years) in the U.S..
 
Brunswick is freely interpreting the gospels and inventing his personal version of Jesus.

My imaginary cat Harvey makes me whole. Bur not existentially, just pain ordinary whole. He is always there sitting on my shoulder through thick and thin.

For Harvey to be your personal guide all you have to do is believe in Harvey and take him into your heart.

When I walk down the street I feel connected to the community around me, that makes me whole.

Harvey says I am a 'wholey' person... heeheeheee. Harvey has a sense of humor.
 







The whole of Jesus's teaching hangs on God. With God, we are existentially whole - morally, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Even physically and materially. Without God, it all falls apart.
The Bible doesn't begin to hold up as evidence for this invisible world you believe in. If the Bible represents the storehouse of God's wisdom and a proof text set down by inspiration for all humans, then God is one sloppy author, editor, proprietor. But in reality it's a mishmash, which lacks internal consistency and probity, and is cluttered with ridiculous fables and fantasies. (See: Samson and the 300 foxes, which is not about his visit to a strip club. It's just one of many impossible Bible narratives. Please tell me you know that the story about the 300 foxes could never have happened and is just a weird and poorly imagined folk tale. Ditto for Jesus and the fish with money in its mouth or Jesus and the 2000 possessed piggies who committed piggy suicide.)
Christians can't even agree on just what supernatural beings inhabit this invisible world. Whatever would constitute reasonable proof for this creator behind the curtain, with, variously, a "son" and a holy ghost, and perhaps the son's mother, and also perhaps angels, saints, a devil with, perhaps, demons -- your faith statements don't provide it.
I suggest that behind your faith lies, not an invisible world with intangible, unprovable beings, but you. You pray, and you're talking to you. That good warm feeling is you, convincing yourself that you've tapped into exalted all-powerful beings. They know your thoughts and what's in your heart, but that's because they're you. And when you relied on them in times of stress, and managed to overcome whatever obstacles you faced, that was you doing the solving. You, formulating the plan and making the decisions and then acting. It was just you, all along. That's the 'existential' quality of human life.
You do get, don't you, that you're addressing an audience here that doesn't have anything like that "God-shaped hole" that believers pretend all people have? Whatever you think "all falls apart" without your god belief doesn't fall apart for us.
I understand, you like your community, and you feel it is the source of all that's good in your life. But every faith community that's ever been provides that.
As for Christians being morally, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually whole, compared to the rest of us -- yeah, look at the immoral charlatan that the vast majority of you put into power last November. Look at the absurd conspiracy theories the Christian Right accepts.
Whatever it means to say Christians are 'physically and materially' whole, I don't know. The born agains in my extended family never got their covid shots, wouldn't mask, and acted like the scientific illiterates that they are. They also disbelieve in catastrophic manmade climate change, so they will be a powerful source of resistance against doing anything good for our little planet. The only home we've got, unless you have a condo on Mars with Musk Acres. If we fuck up bad enough, and the ocean levels, desert zones, and terafires (that word didn't even exist four years ago!) expand enough to decimate us, it will just be us -- you and me -- to deal with the results. No gods, no angels, no saints to pray to.
 
That’s the line we must keep clear, if we truly want to pursue both intellectual honesty and spiritual integrity.

NHC
Absolutely. And it's good to hear from you. I will leave you to find flaws and inconsistencies in my argument then.

It seems Brunswick1954 is only responding to NHC, which, as mentioned is fine; though peculiar, because he said he came here to talk to us. I guess by talk “to” he meant talk “at,” with an anodyne form of preaching. Be that as it may, I will address the argument he presents here to the audience, not to him directly.
The Sermon on the Mount
Generally, it is felt that Jesus’s core message is found in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7). It stands out because it's the inaugural sermon that he gave, according to Matthew. Luke gives a shorter version (Luke 6:17–49) and sets it in the plains, while the other two Gospels don’t include it. This inconsistency suggests to me that those who collated the Bible weren’t trying to construct a coherent message but wanted to keep what was true, not make it neat. They collated what was best taught at that time. They did not try to reframe the message. It's not proof, of course, but I think a reasonable conclusion.

A peculiar inconsistency, since, if this is his core message, why would two gospels omit to mention it?
The thing was, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. To the Jews, the Messiah they were waiting for was meant to save them from the Romans, much as Moses did from the Egyptians, and conquer the world - a bigger and better king than David. Jesus was meant to make Judaism the global religion. But instead of talking up the Jewish mantle, he had a message for all people, and instead of uplifting Judaism, he called them to repent (Matthew 4:17).

The Sermon began with the Beatitudes: blessings on the poor, the sad, the humble (Matthew 5:3–12). We ask why a loving God allows suffering, especially on those who are innocent. Jesus pointed to them and blessed and praised them.

He blessed and praised them, but somehow forgot to answer the question: why does a loving god permit suffering?
It sounds upside down, but children often understand this easily. It's obvious to a child that the innocent are disadvantaged in this world and ought to be blessed.

Which, again, elides the key point: Why does god allow the innocent, or anyone, to suffer? Blank out.

This is later followed by the Antitheses. Jesus denounces moral behaviour as hypocrisy. That even our thoughts betray us (Matthew 5:21–48). We might think this is an impossible expectation. But again, children see it as obvious and just. That moral behaviour with immoral thoughts is hypocrisy and to be condemned.

Then, Jesus says that we should not display our goodness. It should be quiet - not to impress people, but to please God. Pray in secret. Give in secret. Fast in secret. Trust God (Matthew 6:1–6, 16–18). Don’t chase money, chase God (Matthew 6:24).

And yet, while we are supposed to pray in private, we get Christian churches all over the world, where people publicly parade their pretend piety.
He further adds that we are not to worry. God knows what we need and will take care of us (Matthew 6:25–34).

How strange, given that here in New York City, I see homeless people wandering the streets all over the place. God must know what they need, but he certainly does not take care of them. He lifts not a finger to help them.
We can't help but worry about where our next meal is going to come from. How can we not worry about the future? However, worry is often counterproductive, and trying to stop worrying is a cornerstone in self-help and counselling. To thrive in our lives, we need to manage our worries and look on the positive side. To help us do this, we are often encouraged to be grateful and keep a gratitude journal. In times of trouble, this is very difficult. It is much easier to pray and depend on God. And we teach our children to pray to help build this trust in God.

Yes, I’ll tell this to the next homeless person I see wandering blank-eyed and slack-jawed down the street, clad in rags, his belly pinched with hunger. I’ll encourage him to keep a “gratitude journal.” :rolleyes:
The pinnacle of the Sermon is the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9–13). What is most startling about the prayer is that the only part where we are asked to do something is to forgive others. And this is in direct relationship with the forgiveness of our sins (Matthew 6:14–15). The key to God's favour is not moral goodness, but grace. Jesus didn't ask us to strive to be good. It seems as if we are expected to fail on that score. The key to heaven is not righteousness but our ability to forgive our enemies. This is crucial, because being able to forgive is the key to freedom and peace of mind. It's a very difficult ask. But one that we need to teach our children as they get into fights and quarrels in their young lives. Everything else comes from God. We are to ask for, and depend on God for the rest.

And yet, do we really need God to tell us this? Can’t we figure this out on our own?
Then he says something very strange: Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48). We need to consider this carefully. Perfection for us is about being faultless. Perfection, to Jesus, is about forgiving others. In all other ways, we are already perfect. We are already whole, complete, and he asked us to lean on God so that we can grow into who we are meant to be.

Why do we have to lean on a mythical being to behave justly? No answer. Blank out.
That’s the big idea: we become our true selves not by chasing our dreams, but by following God. Our true self is not self-determined but discovered through following God. We are not given carte blanche. We are asked to choose.

And yet so many people don’t follow any god and behave just fine and so many people do follow god and behave beastly. How does Brunswick1954 explain that? Take @southernhybrid. She is an atheist. I have read her posts. She seems an exemplary person in every way.
This is the crux, and liberating. Don't strive for material gain. Instead, just live your life as best you can. Love one another and don't carry grudges. Don't worry, and if you live like that, everything else will fall into place. Stop trying to “be someone” and instead let God shape who we are. The more we are like Jesus, the more we become our true selves.

And what about all those who actually live life as best as they can, don’t hold grudges, forgive others, and don’t believe in God?
The modern world tells us to strive harder, reach out for success, and you will get there. You just need to work harder, be more determined, focused and disciplined. But this often leaves us anxious and alone. And even when we get there, if we get there, it's disappointing and depressing. Jesus tells us of another way: trust God, and He will lead the way.

The whole of Jesus's teaching hangs on God. With God, we are existentially whole - morally, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Even physically and materially. Without God, it all falls apart.

And there is the big non sequitur, the final sentence: “Without God, it all falls apart.” This is where Brunswick inserts the aforementioned fairies into the beautiful garden. Stipulate that Jesus’s teachings are morally pristine (not all agree, and not all who disagree are bad people, either: see, for example, Nietzsche and Rand). Why does it all “fall apart” without God, unless Brunswick is employing God as a symbolic metonym for good behavior? And yet, I don’t think he is. He is pushing a literal resurrection and a literal God and heaven. And I must return to the point I made earlier. What was initially presented as a beautiful moral teaching has evolved into a wicket threat: Believe in a literal resurrection and a literal God, or — no matter how forgiving and morally upright you are. — burn forever in a literal hell. Does Brunswick, or does he not, believe in this? And did not Jesus himself threaten “a lake of fire”? Brunswick curiously omits this from his essay on Jesus.

All claims of a god-based morality fall apart in the face of Euthyphro: Does God want it because it’s good, or is it good because God wants it? If the former, morality lies outside god and god is superfluous; if the latter, morality is arbitrary: if god tells us to kill, we should kill. And indeed, god orders killing in the bible.

Whereas actual moral behavior among social species, not just humans, is very nicely accounted for by unguided evolution.

For a modern variant of Jesus’s teachings by someone who does not believe in a literal God and actually asks of us, for our own sake and not his, something much more difficult than Jesus allegedly asked, I would recommend J. Krishnamurti. His book Freedom from the Known can be found here. Highly recommended.
 
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Brunswick is freely interpreting the gospels and inventing his personal version of Jesus.

My imaginary cat Harvey makes me whole. Bur not existentially, just pain ordinary whole. He is always there sitting on my shoulder through thick and thin.

For Harvey to be your personal guide all you have to do is believe in Harvey and take him into your heart.

When I walk down the street I feel connected to the community around me, that makes me whole.

Harvey says I am a 'wholey' person... heeheeheee. Harvey has a sense of humor.
Hey wait, isn't Harvey a six foot plus rabbit? 😋
 
Jesus allegedly said, “Let this cup pass from me.” Was he afraid of suffering, of death?

In the book I linked above, Krishnamurti is discussing violence and fear, arguing the case that it is entirely inside of you, not outside, and that they are linked because fear breeds violence and violence breeds more fear which in turn breeds more violence. So how does one live at peace — no violence, and no fear? Consider the following passage from the book:

Is this problem of violence out there or here? Do you want to solve the problem in the outside world or are you questioning violence itself as it is in you? If you are free of violence in yourself the question is, `How am I to live in a world full of violence, acquisitiveness, greed, envy, brutality? Will I not be destroyed?' That is the inevitable question which is invariably asked. When you ask such a question it seems to me you are not actually living peacefully. If you live peacefully you will have no problem at all. You may be imprisoned because you refuse to join the army or shot because you refuse to fight - but that is not a problem; you will be shot.

... but that is not a problem; you will be shot.

That is not a problem.

If you leave peacefully you will have no problem at all.

“Let this cup pass from me.”

“Why? That is not a problem.”

Krishnamurti is saying there are no problems, not even death. He says, “die to every moment,” and then the moment of actual death is just another moment, of no particular importance.

Imagine everyone living like that.

For one thing, the “problem” of being shot for refusing to fight would never even arise, because there would be no armies and no fighting anywhere.

With no supernatural mythical god involved.
 
"Let this cup pass from me...nevertheless, thy will, not mine..." Jesus was God incarnate, except when he wasn't.
Not as confusing as Siamese triplet god, but right up there.
 
Then, Jesus says that we should not display our goodness. It should be quiet - not to impress people, but to please God.
An ostentatious display of goodness is odious, but goodness is also not always to be hidden. Love of neighbor and stranger is done without any expectation or hope for reciprocation, but that love for the other is not done to please God; rather it is done for the sake of the other. That being said, it is not particularly objectionable to think of love being done to please God; it is just that the love for other persons is corrupted by impersonal disinterestedness when the love is thought to be for God's sake rather than for the sake of the other.
Jesus didn't ask us to strive to be good. It seems as if we are expected to fail on that score. The key to heaven is not righteousness but our ability to forgive our enemies.
Godliness - in particular, love for an other - is not for the sake of heavenly reward any more than it is done with hope or expectation for reciprocation on the part of the loved other. The notion of heavenly reward is understandable, but it is nonetheless characteristic of a still immature understanding and manner of being. Forgiveness follows from love for the other. Forgiveness is in significant part the manifestation of love in the form of providing opportunities for further development, advancement of person despite errors and failures.
 
This is the crux, and liberating. Don't strive for material gain. Instead, just live your life as best you can. Love one another and don't carry grudges. Don't worry, and if you live like that, everything else will fall into place.
...and if it doesn't "fall into place", then you just don't understand god's plan and you need to stop trying to "be someone" else.

The modern world tells us to strive harder, reach out for success, and you will get there. You just need to work harder, be more determined, focused and disciplined. But this often leaves us anxious and alone. And even when we get there, if we get there, it's disappointing and depressing. Jesus tells us of another way: trust God, and He will lead the way.
Yes, and whenever a child dies they are in a better place... or if the child survives, thank god the child is still alive.

Please, just trust that all of this random stuff that happens is actually all part of a wildly convoluted plan. And if you aren't happy, you just aren't being subservient enough to "the plan". It is so Panglossian.
 
This is the crux, and liberating. Don't strive for material gain. Instead, just live your life as best you can. Love one another and don't carry grudges. Don't worry, and if you live like that, everything else will fall into place.
Well, I do; And my life is comfortable. I am happy, content, and surrounded by people I love, and who love me.

I am also a lifelong atheist, with atheist parents, whose mild belief that Jesus never existed as a single person (and is rather a pastiche of several individuals, plus some mythical bits) is overwhelmed by my very strong and firm belief that Jesus matters not one whit to anything, whether he existed as a single person or not.

Jesus is exactly as important in my life as Zeus, Odin, and Nanahuatl are. That is to say, I have heard of them all, and am impressed by none of them.

I literally have everything that a humble and devout Christian is told he can have as his reward in life, and yet, I have nothing but disdain for Christianity, or Christ. Similarly, I have everything a humble and devout Muslim is told he can have as his reward in life. Guess what my attitude is towards Islam. Go on, guess.

Religion seems to me to be parasitic on human happiness (and/or misery). It adds nothing to the former, and while it can help with the latter, it is not the only palliative for misery, and in that role, all religions are equally effective - we can reduce our suffering, with or wiithout Amaterasu. Or Waheguru. Or Jesus.

Jesus brings nothing to my life. Jesus takes nothing from my life. His followers are a pain in the ass, but as long as they're no longer setting people on fire for worshipping wrong, I don't really care. Just as I am unconcerned about Nanahuatl, as long as His followers aren't showing people their still beating hearts after ripping them from their chests.

And I am certain that there is no afterlife. I mean, for a non-fictional afterlife to be possible, our best tested physics would need to be wildly and obviously mistaken (and it's not; We checked).

It seems to me that your life (like mine) has had ups and downs, and that (like me) you have found a place of happiness and contentment. I am pleased for you. But I cannot fathom what any of this has to do with a guy who is said to heve been executed by the Romans a couple of thousand years ago, but come back to life; Nor what it has to do with the son of Itzpapalotl sacrificing himself in fire to become the Sun, for that matter.

From my perspective, your life and mine are equally impacted by both Jesus and Nanahuatzin. That is to say, "not at all".

We both have a pleasant life; We both enjoy helping others; We both have ways of thinking that help us not to be overwhelmed by the bad things that are outside our control. The difference is that you feel the need to credit Jesus (but none of the thousands of other Gods) for your contentment, while I don't credit any of them with anything, because they're all just made up stories.

You and I are both unbelievers; I just don't believe in one more God than you don't.
 
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