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The Christ Myth Theory

That's not true, unless you take a very liberal view of "very few changes", which of course conservatives often do when they are trying to handwave away textual critique. You don't to read Greek to understand some of those changes and variants, any decent English translation has a row of footnotes beneath the main text, noting where there are ambiguities, contested translations, or conflicting manuscripts. Though to me, the single most significant change introduced by the KJV is that is was an English translation at all. Historic, democratic, etc, but there will always be a loss of meaning when translating between very different languages, and the inherent ambiguity of trying to turn a Greek complex participle into an English complex phrase means that there can never be a strictly literal translation of the Bible into English. Choices must be made in order to achieve readability, and those choices always reflect the worldview and context of the translator. There are plenty of ways to translate a passage, but there is no definitive way to translate it. Consider the passage demarcated in English as Hebrews 5:11

The translator is faced with many insurmountable problems. The first phrase in the sentence lacks a verb, so does the job on it's own, implying a "[there is] much speech" but it really is just the word for "much speech/word/concept". "Around the much speech/word/concept". Logos is the word for "word", but it has like twenty different definitions listed under it in your average Greek to English dictionary, as it is also a concept that does not translate well, something maybe ltierally closer to "those thoughts which become expressed as words in social situations". The Strong's entry on Logos is practically an essay. δυσερμήνευτος is a word that doesn't follow English rules, in that it implies a subject but is not a subject, it the start of a participle phrase whose meaning is something like [those]-which-are-challenging-translation, onlt there is no "those" so it's really more like just are-challenging-interpretation but if you just translate it that way now the verb doesn't have a subject at all and that's a problem because any English reader who sees a subject and a verb is going to assume that they are connected, which would lead them to incorrectly assume that "hard to interpret" refers to the "much" earlier in the sentence. But the author is actually referencing two things, the "polus" (much) that he wants to say, and the "dysermēneutos" that he wants to interpret. A translation that is focusing on assumed intent rather than literal translation might render the passage as something like "There are many things I wish to say, and many more things to interpret to you, but I cannot because of how reluctant you've become to hear it" but that adds so many English "helper words" that aren't present in the original text and erases so many Greek "helper words" that are, that it is barely recognizable as the same sentence at all. So translators usually try to split the difference somehow between comperhensibility and accuracy, with noticeably different reasults.


KJV
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

ESV
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

NLT
11 There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen.

MSG
11 I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening.

CSB
11 We have a great deal to say about this, and it's difficult to explain, since you have become slow to understand.

None of them are really right or wrong as such, though I certainly wouldn't advance the KJV as the best attempt as "utter" doesn't implying explaining or interpreting anything, you see how the other four all try to get this notion across somehow. I think I like the ESV version best? At least it flows. Still, there's no golden ticket here, no matter what choices you make. All of them add a whole bunch of words to the text and remove others, because a strictly accurate translation simply isn't possible without breaking English syntax altogether. And yet, it's not actually a complex or clunky sentence in the original. Hebrews is written in smooth, elegant, even stylish Greek, and this passage would have rolled right off the tongue if spoken in its original language to its original audience. It's translating it inot English that makes it a clunky and confusing book that the pastor has to go over reeeeal slow.

Are any or all of those "minor changes"? Maybe. Depends what you subjectively mean by "minor". A textual literalist is going to stay awake at night wondering if they've done the right thing every time they knowingly add or remove a word from the Scriptures. You average laypserson might look at the sample translations above and go "Eh, whatever, they mean about the same thing. Who cares whether that should have been an 'and' or a 'but'? Nerd!"
 
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That's not true, unless you take a very liberal view of "very few changes", which of course conservatives often do when they are trying to handwave away textual critique.,,,

Even before variations appeared in translations away from Greek, ancient Greek texts themselves had wide variations. Text variations in the earliest New Testaments form a clading-tree structure. As I've explained, this serves as evidence FOR the fact that the Testament was composed very early, already close to its "final" form.

KJV
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

ESV
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

NLT
11 There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen.

MSG
11 I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening.

CSB
11 We have a great deal to say about this, and it's difficult to explain, since you have become slow to understand.

None of them are really right or wrong as such, though I certainly wouldn't advance the KJV as the best attempt as "utter" doesn't implying explaining or interpreting anything, you see how the other four all try to get this notion across somehow. ...

Are any or all of those "minor changes"? Maybe....

For me the question of interest is NOT whether one translator uses "hard" where another uses "difficult" (although I'm not sure about the translator who came up with "since you've picked up this bad habit" :cool: ). The question of interest is whether Significant changes to religious doctrine made their way into the New Testament texts espoused by some religious authorities. Are there examples of that?
 
That's not true, unless you take a very liberal view of "very few changes", which of course conservatives often do when they are trying to handwave away textual critique.,,,

Even before variations appeared in translations away from Greek, ancient Greek texts themselves had wide variations. Text variations in the earliest New Testaments form a clading-tree structure. As I've explained, this serves as evidence FOR the fact that the Testament was composed very early, already close to its "final" form.

KJV
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

ESV
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

NLT
11 There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen.

MSG
11 I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening.

CSB
11 We have a great deal to say about this, and it's difficult to explain, since you have become slow to understand.

None of them are really right or wrong as such, though I certainly wouldn't advance the KJV as the best attempt as "utter" doesn't implying explaining or interpreting anything, you see how the other four all try to get this notion across somehow. ...

Are any or all of those "minor changes"? Maybe....

For me the question of interest is NOT whether one translator uses "hard" where another uses "difficult" (although I'm not sure about the translator who came up with "since you've picked up this bad habit" :cool: ). The question of interest is whether Significant changes to religious doctrine made their way into the New Testament texts espoused by some religious authorities. Are there examples of that?
My answer hasn't changed. Unless you come up with some concrete definition of "significant", then it's an arbitrary distinction. There were certainly a great many changes made in the process of translation into English, and that is easily demonstrable. I picked that verse for exegesis at random, you know; we could analyze almost any passage of the NT for similar issues.
 
The question of interest is whether Significant changes to religious doctrine made their way into the New Testament texts espoused by some religious authorities. Are there examples of that?
My answer hasn't changed. Unless you come up with some concrete definition of "significant", then it's an arbitrary distinction. There were certainly a great many changes made in the process of translation into English, and that is easily demonstrable. I picked that verse for exegesis at random, you know; we could analyze almost any passage of the NT for similar issues.

If "significant" is the stumbling block, just cross that word out. Have their been "changes to religious doctrine that made their way into the New Testament texts espoused by some religious authorities"?

I'm not trying to be obstinate. I suppose you can find instances where a translator or scribe added a slight "spin" to a verse, but have there been changes dictated by some sort of organized revisionism? Upthread I saw comments by other Infidels I took to imply that such changes DID happen.

Your example may be an interesting look at the craft of translation ...
MSG
11 I have a lot more to say about this, but it is hard to get it across to you since you've picked up this bad habit of not listening.

CSB
11 We have a great deal to say about this, and it's difficult to explain, since you have become slow to understand.
... but did it reflect some "revisionism" by church authorities?
 
One example is the story (only in John) of the woman taken in adultery (pericope adulterae) ("He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."). This entry from WIKI explains current thinking on this.
The pericope does not occur in the Greek Gospel manuscripts from Egypt. The Pericope Adulterae is not in 𝔓66 or in 𝔓75, both of which have been assigned to the late 100s or early 200s, nor in two important manuscripts produced in the early or mid 300s, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. The first surviving Greek manuscript to contain the pericope is the Latin-Greek diglot Codex Bezae, produced in the 400s or 500s (but displaying a form of text which has affinities with "Western" readings used in the 100s and 200s). Codex Bezae is also the earliest surviving Latin manuscript to contain it. Out of 23 Old Latin manuscripts of John 7–8, seventeen contain at least part of the pericope, and represent at least three transmission-streams in which it was included.[22][23][24][25]

Then there's the issue of the post resurrection appearances of Christ, which do not appear in the earlier copies of Mark that we have. That's a pretty important omission in what is most likely the first Gospel.
Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark.
That's from this site.
I am not a Biblical scholar and tend to over simplify. I'm sure Politesse can add some corrections and general substance to what I've said.
Mark 16:1-8:
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8: "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid."
Mark 16:9: Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils...
 
Thank you, Tharmas!

That the earliest Mark omits mention of post-Resurrection sightings was already well-known even to me -- not a Biblical scholar -- and has been discussed here before. That does pose an interesting mystery. Paul emphasizes the Resurrection but Mark barely mentions it. The alleged author, John Mark, was a close friend of Simon Peter and probably wrote his Gospel before the Pauline letters circulated widely. Acts tells us that John Mark was Paul's companion for a short while, but apparently they did not part on good terms. (Acts 15:37-39)

That John 8:1-11 is missing from the earliest copies is new to me. Following Wikipedia's citation leads to this discussion
Both that source and the Wikipedia article suggest that the story was early and probably authored by the author of the rest of John.
Papias (c. AD 110) refers to a story of Jesus and a woman "accused of many sins" as being found in the Gospel of the Hebrews,[26] which might refer to this passage or to one like it.[27][28] However, according to the later writer Agapius of Hierapolis, Papias wrote a treatise on the Gospel of John, where he included the story within the Gospel itself.[29] Possibly the earliest evidence for the existence of the pericope adulterae within the Gospel of John is from the 2nd century Protoevangelium of James ...

In both these cases, the new text seems to have been added BEFORE the time of Emperor Constantine, and does not appear to be part of any later organized revisionism.
 
I recently read Adam Nicolson's God's Secretaries - The Making of the King James Bible. A great read for anyone interested in why the KJV came to be and how. I'm not about to go back through and find the individual passages but I was utterly gobsmacked by the different translations of the same passages being used by the many different bibles of the time. Some were utterly bizarre - if one is some sort of devoted traditionalist - but fit the needs of the particular factions. King James and Constantine undertook the same task centuries apart.

Swammi, what are you getting at when you ask about "doctrinal" differences? It sounds to me like you are just tucking yourself into a comfortable bed of tradition. More power to you. Remember that when you do that you are claiming that the earth is central and does not move, and also that continents do not "drift" across the surface of this immovable sphere and that humans are "created" by a great powerful magical hominid in the image of a great powerful magical hominid. Lets not forget that dinosaurs were large, dumb, lumbering, inferior brutes who vanished because they lacked the brain power to survive. The list of self-loving, traditionalist folly is endless. We're all guilty.

The NT didn't drop from the sky. Is there some year when you would like to hold that all after is lies and folly?
 
I recently read Adam Nicolson's God's Secretaries - The Making of the King James Bible. A great read for anyone interested in why the KJV came to be and how. I'm not about to go back through and find the individual passages but I was utterly gobsmacked by the different translations of the same passages being used by the many different bibles of the time. Some were utterly bizarre - if one is some sort of devoted traditionalist - but fit the needs of the particular factions. King James and Constantine undertook the same task centuries apart.

Swammi, what are you getting at when you ask about "doctrinal" differences? It sounds to me like you are just tucking yourself into a comfortable bed of tradition. More power to you. Remember that when you do that you are claiming that the earth is central and does not move, and also that continents do not "drift" across the surface of this immovable sphere and that humans are "created" by a great powerful magical hominid in the image of a great powerful magical hominid. Lets not forget that dinosaurs were large, dumb, lumbering, inferior brutes who vanished because they lacked the brain power to survive. The list of self-loving, traditionalist folly is endless. We're all guilty.

The NT didn't drop from the sky. Is there some year when you would like to hold that all after is lies and folly?

I am not a Christian or anything like that. I just see claims like the one I've reddened and am sincerely curious: I'd like to see examples. The reading I've done -- which MIGHT be biased -- suggests that there are few, if any, "doctrinal differences" between different versions.

Kudos to Politesse for showing differences among translations into English. But I saw no "doctrinal differences" in her examples. Kudos to Tharmas who shows two interesting additions to Gospels. I don't know if they qualify as "doctrinal", but dated to about 2nd-century they can't reflect influence of Constantine let alone King James.

It has nothing to do with any "comfortable bed of tradition." My entire interest in the New Testament -- similar to my interest in the Shakespeare authorship -- is purely due to my curiosity about controversies. This curiosity was aroused when I came across, right here at IIDB, the absurd opinions of Richard Carrier.
 
Kudos to Politesse for showing differences among translations into English. But I saw no "doctrinal differences" in her examples. Kudos to Tharmas who shows two interesting additions to Gospels. I don't know if they qualify as "doctrinal", but dated to about 2nd-century they can't reflect influence of Constantine let alone King James.
I am uncertain what you mean by "doctrinal" (a doctrine, to me, is a belief or set of beliefs that a church has endorsed or rejected, not the text it is perhaps based on) but my point was that the act of translation is a major change, in and of itself; there are different approaches, yes, but the reason for that is that the translation is fundamentally a different book than the works it is translating and collating. Different translators make different choices in terms of what to add and remove from the text, but they all must make such choices, and they don't do so in a vacuum. An English copy of "The Bible" is not entirely the same work as the Latin Vulgate or the various Greek texts of which it was itself a translation. Its content has changed, it is read differently, it is used differently.
 
Swammi, what are you getting at when you ask about "doctrinal" differences? It sounds to me like you are just tucking yourself into a comfortable bed of tradition. More power to you. Remember that when you do that you are claiming that the earth is central and does not move, and also that continents do not "drift" across the surface of this immovable sphere and that humans are "created" by a great powerful magical hominid in the image of a great powerful magical hominid. Lets not forget that dinosaurs were large, dumb, lumbering, inferior brutes who vanished because they lacked the brain power to survive. The list of self-loving, traditionalist folly is endless. We're all guilty.

The NT didn't drop from the sky. Is there some year when you would like to hold that all after is lies and folly?

Comments like this REALLY confuse me. What have I ever said to make anyone think I regard the Bible as factual?? :confused2:

Why does wanting to compare version A with version B necessarily make me a "believer" in either one?

If I wanted to compare Hamlet in the First Folio with the quarto version of Hamlet would that suddenly show that I believed Hamlet to be a true story?? :confused2:

Not just in this post, but repeatedly over and over in this thread and related threads I express the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity in the Bible, and immediately it is assumed I am a believer! What??

As long as I remember I have been an atheist. I've no idea whether my friends and acquaintances were atheists or not -- over several decades and with only one exception, it was NEVER discussed. If my friends were Christians they sure never hinted at it to me. I do remember friends in junior high school finding obvious flaws in Genesis -- such easy pickings already seemed too sophomoric for me to bother with.

So it is here at this "atheist board" that I come in contact with hard-core atheists. Frankly, some of you remind me of dogmatic Christians. You REFUSE to treat the Bible as interesting literature nor as historic puzzles. The Toledot Yeshu is treated with more respect than the Gospels. Richard Carrier, a nincompoop in important ways, is treated as a Prophet just because he's so vocal about his atheism. Similarities with Christian cultists abound.
 
Kudos to Politesse for showing differences among translations into English. But I saw no "doctrinal differences" in her examples. Kudos to Tharmas who shows two interesting additions to Gospels. I don't know if they qualify as "doctrinal", but dated to about 2nd-century they can't reflect influence of Constantine let alone King James.
I am uncertain what you mean by "doctrinal" (a doctrine, to me, is a belief or set of beliefs that a church has endorsed or rejected, not the text it is perhaps based on) but my point was that the act of translation is a major change, in and of itself; there are different approaches, yes, but the reason for that is that the translation is fundamentally a different book than the works it is translating and collating. Different translators make different choices in terms of what to add and remove from the text, but they all must make such choices, and they don't do so in a vacuum. An English copy of "The Bible" is not entirely the same work as the Latin Vulgate or the various Greek texts of which it was itself a translation. Its content has changed, it is read differently, it is used differently.

First you disliked my "significant" so I crossed it out. Now we focus on "doctrinal." Will Webster help? I'm not good at these types of discussion, and am afraid I will soon be emulating Bill Clinton, wondering what the definition of "Is" is! :)

I am just trying to repeat a claim I have seen several times as I Google and read about these controversies. I'll quote from Daniel B. Wallace -- one of many -- just because he is still sitting in one of my browser tabs!

bible.org said:
Daniel B. Wallace has taught Greek and New Testament courses on a graduate school level since 1979. He has a Ph.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary, and is currently professor of New Testament Studies at his alma mater. His Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament ...

Daniel B. Wallace said:
In reality, to argue for the purity of the Byzantine stream, as opposed to the pollution introduced by the Alexandrian manuscripts, is to blow out of proportion what the differences between these two texts really are—both in quantity and quality. For over 250 years, New Testament scholars have argued that no textual variant affects any doctrine. Carson has gone so far as to state that “nothing we believe to be doctrinally true, and nothing we are commanded to do, is in any way jeopardized by the variants. This is true for any textual tradition. The interpretation of individual passages may well be called in question; but never is a doctrine affected.” The remarkable thing is that this applies both to the standard critical texts of the Greek New Testament and to Hodges’s and Farstad’s Majority Text; doctrine is not affected by the variants between them. [Swammi's emphasis]

I proudly proclaim my Ignorance and will show myself to the door! If what Professor Wallace writes is wrong, please take it up with him! :cool:
 
Swammi,
I'll try to provide you with some examples. In the meantime could you help me understand what you have in mind when you say "doctrinal." Please excuse my stupidity but it seemed to me you were meaning "traditional" or maybe "orthodox." As Poli said, all translation is a lie. Having had several years of Latin both in high school and university I recall that you had to know what you wanted the translation to say before you made the translation because the same word had so many different meanings. Post Constantinian Christianity forbade translation from Latin. Doing so incurred the wrath of the church. If they didn't catch you alive they dug up your bones and scattered your remains. Not sure about everyone else but this seems a tad barbaric. But why do you think this was so?
 
I wonder if part of the confusion is that many Infidels are interested in the mood, purpose or tone of religious doctrines and how they relate to their own philosophy.

But that's not me. I'm interested in doctrinal changes to the NT, if any, purely as a historical curiosity.

Swammi,
I'll try to provide you with some examples. In the meantime could you help me understand what you have in mind when you say "doctrinal."

Refer to the quote by Daniel Wallace. 'Doctrinal' is pertaining to 'Doctrine', which I take to mean the tenets and teachings of the religion.
Please excuse my stupidity but it seemed to me you were meaning "traditional" or maybe "orthodox."

To deviate from doctrine is heterodox, but (since the New Testament is the commanding document of the religion) a change in NT text would be to CHANGE doctrine, not to deviate therefrom! Recall
John Harington said:
Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.
(paraphrased: Heresy cannot infect the Holy Book. For once it's Holy none dare call it Heresy.)
(Harington was Queen Elizabeth's 'Saucy Godson' and invented the flush toilet.)

I assume that it is DELIBERATE doctrine change that is of most interest. Yes, translators might inadvertantly(*) "change doctrine" but probably not in a systemic way.

(* - One interesting change I've mentioned before: Luke and Matthew tell the same story, but with a completely different verb! Analysis suggests strongly that one writer mistranslated an Aramaic passage; the mistaken Aramaic word is spelled VERY close to the substituted verb.)

As Poli said, all translation is a lie. Having had several years of Latin both in high school and university I recall that you had to know what you wanted the translation to say before you made the translation because the same word had so many different meanings. Post Constantinian Christianity forbade translation from Latin. Doing so incurred the wrath of the church. If they didn't catch you alive they dug up your bones and scattered your remains. Not sure about everyone else but this seems a tad barbaric. But why do you think this was so?
Interesting topics, but my question was limited to changes to doctrine.
 
Disagree with Daniel Wallace? On a question of ancient Greek? Mi genoito (heaven forbid)! Most of my knowledge of Koine syntax comes from his textbook. He's discussing a different issue in that passage, though, and his (amd Carson's) conclusions are also different than what you have been saying. Rather than denying the significance of the literal differences, they are observing that whatever those differences might be, they aren't directly tied to the doctrinal divisions that fueled the schism of the Eastern and Western churches. I agree. They do have noticeably different Bibles, but that is more a consequence of the schism than an explanation for why it happened. And you might make a similar argument about the KJV. The differences between the KJV and a Greek Orthodox Bible are very significant, but the Protestant Reformation was already long in tooth by the time the KJV was published - if the English translation has a Protestant bias (as most would agree that it does) that is because it was written by Protestants, not because it turned people somehow into Protestants. Hence why I think discussions of doctrine aren't directky relevant to a discussion of textual variations.
 
Interesting topics, but my question was limited to changes to doctrine.
The KJV is an amalgamation of differing doctrines that different bibles contained. The first rule that KJV "translators" had to follow was:

The ordinary Bible read in Church commonly called the Bishops Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the Truth of the Original will permit.

The Bishops' Bible was acknowledged by everyone to be not as good as the Geneva Bible. which the king hated because of its marginal notes, but the Bishops' Bible was the official Bible and as such had to be respected. Its language was heavy with latinisms and strange phraseology, loathed by Puritans... The Bishops Bible was too elevated for its own good, cloth eared and inaccessible. Famously, instead of 'Cast they bred upon the waters', the bishops had written, 'Lay they bread upon wet faces.'

Elsewhere

The words of this translation, then could embrace both gorgeousness and ambiguity, did not have to settle into a single doctrinal mode but could embrace different meanings, either within the text itself or within the margins.
I don't know why Nicolson calls them translators when in fact they were more like editors and producers and creators who's only concern was producing an acceptable product for James and protestant England using those same materials that the first producers did under Constantine, the point being to quell doctrinal dissent.

I cannot do justice to the book. I recommend you read it. There is enlightening discussion of the translation of the words ecclesia and presbyteros and exactly how different bibles translated those words imparting doctrinal differences. The new KJV was going to address those differences.

Do you know anything of marginal notes and how bibles differed in this respect? This in itself is a doctrinal difference between bibles. De vere used a Geneva Bible and made many notes therein.

If I come across those more glaring differences in translation that different bibles used I will note them. They are out there if you would care to make your own investigations and research.
 
Jesus "called Christ" in Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is a later Christian interpolation.

Abstract: Based on the testimony of Josephus (Jewish Antiquities 20.197–203), most scholars place the death of James, the brother of Jesus in 62 c.e.

This article breaks with this consensus, arguing that the reference to Jesus "called Christ" in Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is a later Christian interpolation. If it can be shown that the Josephan account was not originally about James, the early Christian leader, then
  • James's death cannot be linked to the high priesthood of Ananus in 62 c.e.
It also means that if any of the historical circumstances surrounding James's death can be recovered, they must be sought in the Christian narratival accounts of early antiquity. After reviewing the complex source-critical relations between
the James tradition in Hegesippus,​
Clement of Alexandria,​
the Second Apocalypse of James,​
and the Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions,​
and establishing the earliest independent form of the tradition.

I argue that the narrative logic of the martyrdom account depends on at least two minimal historical likelihoods: 1) that James was in fact killed; and 2) that his death occurred shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 c.e.


--List, Nicholas (March 2024). "The Death of James the Just Revisited". Journal of Early Christian Studies. 32 (1): 17–44. doi:10.1353/earl.2024.a923167.
 
Who was it about if not James?

(a) This is an otherwise unknown/unremarkable 'a certain James and some others' (or similar wording), who is remembered only in this notice by Josephus, the plausibility of which can be allowed because of how common the name is.

(b) James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

Jewish Antiquities 20.200​

Viklund, Roger (2 April 2013). "Richard Carrier's article: Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200". Jesus granskad.
To summarize, this is what Carrier suggests. In the 240’s Origen writes that “Titus destroyed Jerusalem, on account, as Josephus wrote, of James the Just, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ”. Although Origen says that Josephus wrote this, Origen nevertheless got it from Hegesippus, from whom he paraphrases it, not quotes it. He also includes a passage from Matt 1.16, and this he does in his Commentary on Matthew.
Origen searches Josephus in order to find where Josephus had written this, but does not manage to find the passage. He only finds the story of the stoning of one James in AJ 20.200 which spoke of “the brother of Jesus, whose name was James”. Perhaps he made a note there: “the one called Christ”. If Origen did not make such a note, then someone else later on made it, adapting to the phrase Origen previously used.
Eusebius used the same library as Origen less than a century later, and probably had a copy of AJ which was made from the very manuscript used by Origen. In the copying of that manuscript, the marginal note would have been inserted into the text so that it now read “the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, the name for whom was James …”. Eusebius, apart from this, also quoted the passage given by Origen as if it had been written by Josephus. But since he only got it from Origen, neither he could say where Josephus had written this.

Cf. Carrier, Richard (2012). "Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200". Journal of Early Christian Studies. 20 (4): 489–514. doi:10.1353/earl.2012.0029.
Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to “Christ” in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians. It referred not to James the brother of Jesus Christ, but probably to James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.
See: Carrier (21 December 2012). "Jesus in Josephus". Richard Carrier Blogs.

PS:
Carrier (23 September 2016). “Three Things to Know about New Testament Manuscripts”. Richard Carrier Blogs.
[Per the Jewish Antiquities by Josephus] all extant manuscripts of the Antiquities are copies (of copies of copies of copies…) of the same singular manuscript owned and used by Eusebius at his own Christian library in Caesarea.

This means we cannot expect any versions of the text different from or predating that single manuscript to be available to us in any manuscript there is today. This means all variants prior to that (including the original form of the text as Josephus wrote it) are permanently lost and invisible to us. Every error and distortion and mistaken “correction” that got into the text in that one single Eusebian manuscript, from its own copying from an earlier manuscript in that same library (used by Origen), which said significantly different things, and every error and distortion and mistaken “correction” that got into the text in the long process of transmission down through numerous reproductions before Origen even acquired his copy, will never show in the surviving record. All manuscript evidence there would have been proving those variant readings, has been 100% lost. Probably forever.

That the entirety of all Josephan scholarship is only trying to reconstruct the text as it was in the single—centuries-late—manuscript held by Eusebius in the early 4th century, and cannot ever reconstruct any version of the text prior (down to and including the original text as known to Josephus in the late 1st century), is an extremely significant thing to realize.
  • Richard Carrier asserts that per the Jewish Antiquities: "No expert opinion on the authenticity of either [Jesus] passage is citeable, if it isn’t informed by" the respective "published research on it over the last ten years."
 
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Who was it about if not James?
This post confused me. Until I noted that an extra click was required. :dancing:
Jesus "called Christ" in Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is a later Christian interpolation.

Abstract: Based on the testimony of Josephus (Jewish Antiquities 20.197–203), most scholars place the death of James, the brother of Jesus in 62 c.e.

This article breaks with this consensus, arguing that the reference to Jesus "called Christ" in Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is a later Christian interpolation.

Fine. So what? Cross out the "called Christ" and it remains clear which James and Jesus they're talking about.

Josephus is the only early non-Christian reference for James. (Note that some extremists contend that to be a valid, a reference must be not only non-Christian but also non-Jewish!). BUT it is the confluence of at least four independent sources -- Josephus, Hegasippus, Paul's Letter to the Galatians, and Luke's Acts -- that identify James. (The synoptic Gospels of course confirm that Jesus had a brother James.)

@Experts: I'm hardly well read. Were there FIVE or even more sources? In any event -- to rebuke and parody some complaints -- the number of near-contemporaneous source documents exceeds those for Alexander the Great!

If it can be shown that the Josephan account was not originally about James, the early Christian leader, then
  • James's death cannot be linked to the high priesthood of Ananus in 62 c.e.

:confused2: How do you propose to show that? :confused2:

First let us pose and answer questions about probability, e.g.
  1. What is the probability that Josephus and Hegasippus wrote about the SAME man?
  2. What is the probability James the Just even existed?
  3. Paul's Galatians and Luke's Acts speak of James (the Lord's brother). What is the probability that Paul and Hegasippus wrote of the same man?
  4. What is the probability that Paul's James actually was the blood brother of Jesus Christ?

IMO, ALL four of the above are more likely than not (i.e. > 50%) In most cases I'd guess even more likely, e.g. 80%. I'd ask anyone who guesses the probabilities are much less to present a scenario, presumably with a kinship lie espoused and not debunked.

Carrierites will make claims like "it was common to refer to fellow Christians as 'Lord's brother'. James the Just was NOT Jesus' brother."
Fundamentally, deciding whether those Carrierites are correct comes down to a GUESS. Informed guesses are better than amateur or novice guesses of course. Probability estimation is a craft; that craft is an important part of a historian's tool-kit.

--List, Nicholas (March 2024). "The Death of James the Just Revisited". Journal of Early Christian Studies. 32 (1): 17–44. doi:10.1353/earl.2024.a923167.
Was this the direct source of quotation? In any event, I saw nothing of interest in the excerpt. Please copy/paste from your source any paragraphs that are of particular INTEREST or RELEVANCE. Don't bother unless he's a competent objective scholar, please. We don't need more Carrierite gibberish.
 
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