• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Christ Myth Theory

Who was it about if not James?

(a) This is an otherwise unknown/unremarkable 'a certain James and some others' (or similar wording), who is remembered only in this notice by Josephus, the plausibility of which can be allowed because of how common the name is.
FIRST: It's important to note that there were many thousands of remarkable stories from that time and place whose mention survives in ZERO documents.. Josephus mentions by name several governors, kings, high priests, etc. How many lower-status Romans does he mention by name? Non-Romans? Anyone?

The fact that James is mentioned in even ONE history already makes him remarkable! "Otherwise unremarkable" is special pleading since Josephus is almost the ONLY source for much of 1st-century Judaea.

Hegasippus also mentions a James the Just being executed. Execution details DIFFER from the Josephus account? Are these probably the same person anyway?

I just asked to know whether the James of Hegasippus, Josephus, and Paul/Luke were all one and the same, or three different Jameses. Or perhaps Josephus and Paul/Luke are two different Jameses, and Hegasippus conflated the two?

(b) James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.
This solution (b) strikes me as utterly laughable. I wonder if folks who disagree have reviewed Josephus' long paragraph, and have thought about it for a full minute. Other Infidels? Do you see why I consider it laughable?
 
(b) James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.
This solution (b) strikes me as utterly laughable. I wonder if folks who disagree have reviewed Josephus' long paragraph, and have thought about it for a full minute. Other Infidels? Do you see why I consider it laughable?

To be clear: Carrier's Jesus ben Damneus "solution" has one High Priest assassinate James the Just; the Governor then replaces that High Priest with another: Jesus ben Damneus -- alleged brother of the same James the Just! Does this strike you as plausible? Does it seem likely the assassinated Christian had a brother about to be named High Priest?

What's the "reasoning" of Carrier or his cultists? Nothing that I can see. Except the coincidence that two different Jesuses appear on the same page, each mentioned only a single time. One Jesus (possibly "called Christ") at the beginning of an over-sized paragraph, the other Jesus ("ben Damneus") mention is at the end. (The High Priest who ordered the objectionable assassination of a just man is dismissed; the incident closes with naming his replacement.)
 
I just went back to the Wikipedia page on the Christ myth theory, which I haven't looked at in years, to find it is basically being portrayed as analogous to Young Earth Creationism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory . And, Internet Infidels/Secular Web gets a mention:

Ehrman notes that "the mythicists have become loud, and thanks to the Internet they've attracted more attention".[380] Within a few years of the inception of the World Wide Web (c. 1990), mythicists such as Earl Doherty began to present their argument to a larger public via the internet.[note 35] Doherty created the website The Jesus Puzzle in 1996,[web 24] while the organization Internet Infidels has featured the works of mythicists on their website[381] and mythicism has been mentioned on several popular news sites.[382]

Since its resurgence in the 1970's, proponents of the Christ Myth Theory have only managed to publish one peer reviewed book on the topic, "On The Historicity Of Jesus" by Dr. Richard Carrier, with the footnote that this was published by Sheffield, who also published Thomas Brodie's mythicist autobiography, so they seem to like that sort of thing. The only related peer reviewed publication was by Dr. Raphael Lataster, arguing for Jesus Agnosticism. I have interviewed Richard before and find his argument rigorous and plausible, though I ultimately disagree with mythicism on interpretive grounds.

What do others think of Jesus Mythicism? Do you find it plausible, or finge/crank? Would anyone be interested in discussing the recent Loftus/Price mythicist book Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist.

View attachment 38791

I realize I'm raising this in the context of Internet Infidels / Secular Web, where Richard used to work, and he has a significant online following, so there may be some interesting discussions to be had!
Do Ideas exist? Do we exist?

We dismantle us piece by piece. lol, that sounds funny. We study those pieces in great detail. Neither do we find. Does that that mean we do not exist? There are many levels and rows here, but lets just focus on the big picture.

I call it fundy-think. I am not a writer so the only way I can convey the idea is list how a fundamental Christian (or any religious person) would sound. How would that mixture of personality traits sound as an atheist. Jesus literally true or false is the key to identifying them. That type of person needs these to be true or false or they cannot function. Sometimes I wish our brains can go "blue screen". Keep these people out of our hair.

Like politics, this topic fraught with personal agenda. Otherwise this is simple. The belief in "something more" matches observation better than the reverse belief. Fundy-think-type atheism makes as much sense as fundy-think-type religion. "No-gods or god of any type" or you are weak minded, needy, and delusional. Is equal, but opposite, to "My-god-only" or you die.

"Jesus" represents an idea at this point. Like a flag. Its just a word that symbolizes "liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all". "all" doesn't mean every single person. allah, yhwh, spirit of wolf, dream time, or any things like that. Even Buddhist where me, myself, and I is the god. all basically the same thing. Ignoring the "my way or highway" type. Be careful tho, "They have rights too", holding to that can be turned into a weapon also by, the ever present, "fundy-think-type" or broken brain brained.

So, for me, "Jesus as the focal point" to help ourselves not trip over ourselves is fine. I don't need him, I like Washington, Lincoln, and Sherman myself. It seems a focal point, due to human nature, is necessary for humans in achieving any goal. Here, be at least, as nice as I was yesterday. Its the fundy-think-types that get a hold of it and weaponize it. weather atheist or theist doesn't really matter all that much.

Plausible or crank? We have to define some things ...

Recall: no real true or false here, unless a fundy-think-type or broken brain (broken means something happened, like abuse or addiction). And of course those fighting religion ... they are politic-ing. Think of how you how talk about belief if you are fighting religion and trying to suppress anything they can use. I would talk about belief different if I am focusing on stop religion vs describing how the universe works yo the best of our abilities in a belief forum too. But I would be honest also.

List the beliefs we have to choose from then to see. It doesn't have to even be "pick one" put them is a relative reliability list.

  • no gods or god of any type
  • I don't have to say anything (sliding scale here: In a belief forum: then don't. thousands of posts over years is most certainly saying something, time to man up.)
  • something more: Jesus myth seems to fit this ... sort of. Again, sort of a sliding scale here. from "that all powerful energy thingie to the "human hive mind"
  • My god only.

"irreligious" is often used as misinformation by some atheist. More atheist believe in "something more". At least around me.

I think the ideas that Jesus taught are real enough but some cranks got hold of them and weaponized them.
Just one inter-hack's thought. :)
 
[T]he Christ is understood [as] the Jesus of the New Testament. . . . He is the Christ myth.

--Remsburg, John Eleazer (1909). The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidences of His Existence. p. 9.
How different is a mythical Christ from a historical Jesus that we can’t know much about with any degree of confidence? … It’s the New Testament Christ that Christianity is all about, not an imaginary historical Jesus that historians construct by accepting or rejecting various parts of the gospels by applying questionable criteria and by mining equally questionable extra-Biblical sources.

--Dykstra, Tom (1 December 2012). "Did Jesus Exist?–-Review of Bart Ehrman’s New Book". Mandatory for Decent Human Life. Retrieved 18 March 2021.
The Gospels are still assumed to be some form of record of historical events. And if the most sceptical of scholars concedes this, that scholar can rarely escape the tyranny of the cultural world-view that says at the very least the Gospels were inspired by historical events. Even if they narrate only myths, those myths, it is assumed, were inspired by real persons and happenings.

But it is all assumption.

There are nothing but assumptions all the way down.

There is no evidence.

There are no controls.

It is all belief. Faith. Tradition. Assumption.


--Godfrey, Neil (25 March 2012). "Historical Jesus Studies As Pseudo-History -- Bart Ehrman's Jesus As a Case-Study". Vridar

I think the ideas that Jesus taught are real enough but some cranks got hold of them and weaponized them.

JarekS said:
Jesus Christ [of the New Testament] seems to be a historical person about whom his future followers learned several dozen years after the fact, not from . . . oral tradition but from readers of the writings of a certain historian.

And then later created a fictional historical narrative for said "a historical person" using the "Old Testament".
rgprice wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:40 am

For me the question is very simple. Were the Gospel narratives based upon the life of a real person named Jesus? Are they accounts of the ministry teachings of a real person named Jesus?

If the answer is no then "Jesus did not exist."

If yes. Then Jesus, a H. sapien on Earth, is defined as one whose historicity is > 50 percent on a methodologically correct Bayesian approach to the putative valid evidence.

--dbz (July 06, 2024). "What is your current definition of Jesus?". EarlyWritings.

(1) The Gospels are the only definite source for a historical Jesus we have (everything else either derives from them or is too ambiguous to determine the question), yet they portray Jesus more similarly to other mythical persons than any historical person (even historical persons we know were also mythologized), therefore we need good evidence to prove Jesus is the exception among those similar characters; otherwise, we should conclude he is just like all the others, i.e. just as mythical as they are.

(2) The Epistles that predate the Gospels should provide such evidence, but instead exhibit no clear evidence that Jesus was ever known to have visited Earth; they appear only to know of a revelatory Jesus who was only ever met or spoken to in visions.

(1) + (2) = Jesus was more likely mythical than historical.

Note this is not "Jesus was mythical." Rather, "more likely" to be. In OHJ I still conclude with a 1 in 3 chance there was a historical Jesus.

Also note that (1) is crucially distinct and different from "the Gospel stories were made up." A biography merely being made up is not the same thing as fashioning a character entirely according to pagan and Jewish tropes for mythical persons.

--Comment by Richard Carrier—20 December 2020—per Carrier, "Jesus from Outer Space?". The Bible and Interpretation. 2020.
 
Hey dbz, what if one does not accept the above humans as authorities, does that not alter your carefully constructed persuasive argument and the claims you made that you relied on those men as authorities to supp--- ohhhh. Oh. Okay, cool. It all works out, then.
 
@janice -- If someone cites Sean Hannity or Mike Lindell in a discussion of American politics it is prudent, and saves time, to just ignore everything that person says.

Similiarly if someone cites Richard Carrier in a discussion of Christian history it is prudent, and saves time, to just ignore everything that person says.
 
@janice -- If someone cites Sean Hannity or Mike Lindell in a discussion of American politics it is prudent, and saves time, to just ignore everything that person says.

Similiarly if someone cites Richard Carrier in a discussion of Christian history it is prudent, and saves time, to just ignore everything that person says.
Yeah, thank you, exactly. Pool of Confusion indeed.
 
  • The quasi godlike Michael angel as the "Son of Man" anticipates the expected victory of Israel over the pagan nations
i.e. Michael is a "Christ of YHWH" like how Deborah can be seen as a symbol of feminine power and creation arising from a situation of potential danger as a "Vayidaber of YHWH"
[T]his book is divided into two parts. The first part, on “Second Temple Judaism,” starts with the Son of Man in the Book of Daniel, which determines a great share of the subsequent discussion.
  • He can likely be interpreted as the angel Michael,
the divine representative of the people Israel, who anticipates in heaven the expected earthly victory of Israel over the pagan nations. With him, for the first time an angel enters the scene who is elevated to quasi godlike status, and in this capacity, represents in heaven the interests of God’s earthly people.

This is followed by a chapter on the wisdom literature, as reflected in the canonical Proverbs and noncanonical books Jesus Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) and Wisdom of Solomon (Sapientia Salomonis). Here two competing strands of tradition become visible—namely,

• [F]irst a strand that is traditionally biblical, according to which wisdom was created as a child (more precisely, a daughter) of God prior to the creation of the world, initially enthroned with God in heaven, and then sent as his envoy to humankind (more precisely, the people Israel) on earth.

• The second strand, which is largely influenced by Platonic philosophy, regards wisdom as the archetype of divine perfection that imparts divine strength to the earthly world in various stages of emanation. In Judaism, this became the Torah; in Christianity, it became the personified Logos.


--Schäfer, Peter (2020). "Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity". Princeton University Press. p. 9. NOW FORMATTED && BOLDED

Screenshot 2024-07-30 at 04-35-08 Gemini.png
 
Last edited:
andrewcriddle said:
Boyarin seems to be saying that maybe a suffering and dying messiah predates Christianity...
  • Thus if true? Then the next piece to solve the "puzzle" of Boyarin's The Christ: The Story of Jewish Gospels is,
My secret suspicion is that the idea of “suffering servant”, “son of man”, “Davidic persona” … being resurrected originated as a metaphor and came to be taught as a literal act while maintaining the original meaning of a new life as a new Israel, new servant, etc. This notion was part of the evolving understandings of Isaiah and related passages but after the destruction of the Jewish nation we have a new metaphor introduced, the physical Jesus as the personification of the “ideal Israel” — which likewise came to be understood not as a metaphor but also literally.

Comment by Neil Godfrey 2024-07-06 per "Dying and Rising Gods? Scholars are Divided". Vridar. 6 July 2024.
  • Occurring in the milieu of,
Dionysus [was] born of Semele from a potion . . . [Zeus, later] imbued with the requisite atoms [of Dionysus] to pass [said atoms] on again, he re-inseminated Semele . . .(and Dionysus is thus re-conceived from atoms of his corpse and reborn, through this much more exceedingly complex chain of events).

Their stories are still very different, but when looking for elements of influence (like the idea of an asexual conception of a demigod by a mortal woman), it’s the actual precedents we want to examine. Not stories that didn’t have an influence.

Jews abhorred the idea of divine beings engaging in sexual reproduction. So when any Jew was constructing his own resurrected savior god, “born of a woman,” he needed to look around for ideas of gods conceiving by a mortal woman that didn’t involve sex. There were many such models around to inspire the idea (I discuss several in my article on virgin births). Having his demigod slain and resurrected as a baby also didn’t suit the needs of the messianic model a Jew would need, so obviously other models were looked to there as well (other gods, whose death-tales would better suit the final apocalyptic atonement sacrifice that Jewish soteriology required).

But Dionysus is nevertheless one of many widely-known instantiations of a common motif of the miraculously born, dying-and-rising savior god—each, like Jesus, just as unique as the next: from Dionysus to Osiris, Zalmoxis, Inanna, Dolichenus, and Adonis (not to mention Romulus, Hercules, and Asclepius).

It simply cannot be claimed that the Jewish authors of the idea of their own miraculously born, dying-and-rising savior, were in no way aware of nor at all influenced by the widespread instantiation of exactly that kind of savior all around them, in practically every culture they knew. That’s simply absurd. The coincidence is impossible.

--Carrier, Richard (30 March 2018). "Dying-and-Rising Gods: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It". Richard Carrier Blogs. NOW FORMATTED && BOLDED.
 
1-768x403.jpg
  • So, is it really an embarrassment? Quite the contrary.
Do the test: Remove the death, resurrection, and exaltation of Jesus, and then Paul’s Jesus and the core of Paul’s doctrine would disappear.

The death of Jesus is not an embarrassment since it’s based on Isaiah 53, which is the climax of Isaiah’s servant story.

And Isaiah’s servant was viewed as the coming Messiah in several Jewish texts of the Second Temple period.
 
I just went back to the Wikipedia page on the Christ myth theory, which I haven't looked at in years, to find it is basically being portrayed as analogous to Young Earth Creationism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory . And, Internet Infidels/Secular Web gets a mention:

Ehrman notes that "the mythicists have become loud, and thanks to the Internet they've attracted more attention".[380] Within a few years of the inception of the World Wide Web (c. 1990), mythicists such as Earl Doherty began to present their argument to a larger public via the internet.[note 35] Doherty created the website The Jesus Puzzle in 1996,[web 24] while the organization Internet Infidels has featured the works of mythicists on their website[381] and mythicism has been mentioned on several popular news sites.[382]

Since its resurgence in the 1970's, proponents of the Christ Myth Theory have only managed to publish one peer reviewed book on the topic, "On The Historicity Of Jesus" by Dr. Richard Carrier, with the footnote that this was published by Sheffield, who also published Thomas Brodie's mythicist autobiography, so they seem to like that sort of thing. The only related peer reviewed publication was by Dr. Raphael Lataster, arguing for Jesus Agnosticism. I have interviewed Richard before and find his argument rigorous and plausible, though I ultimately disagree with mythicism on interpretive grounds.

What do others think of Jesus Mythicism? Do you find it plausible, or finge/crank? Would anyone be interested in discussing the recent Loftus/Price mythicist book Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist.

View attachment 38791

I realize I'm raising this in the context of Internet Infidels / Secular Web, where Richard used to work, and he has a significant online following, so there may be some interesting discussions to be had!
When I was asked to contribute a chapter to this book I was relieved that I did not have to argue a case for Jesus mythicism. To me, there is no case to answer: The Jesus of the gospels is recognized as mythical by critical scholars and the Jesus of Paul's letters is a theological construct. Whether there is a historical Jesus behind either the gospels or the letters is impossible to determine because there is no contemporary independent source to confirm the existence of such a person. That state of affairs was explicitly acknowledged by Albert Schweitzer in his detailed book arguing against the mythicists of his day. And reliance upon contemporary independent witnesses is the touchstone of the historical method. (Even where sources are late, historians look for indications that the author was drawing upon sources from the time of the person or event being discussed.)

The problem with trying to make a case for the historical Jesus by trying to imagine what the author of the gospels would or would not have made up (criterion of embarrassment) -- e.g. the disciples getting violent at Jesus' arrest -- is that very many details in those gospels were evidently made up to illustrate some fulfilment of scripture. But more to the point, I think, is if we let ourselves be guided by the normal methods of dating documents, and that means again relying upon independent witnesses. In the case of the canonical gospels, there is no clear cut evidence that anyone knew of them until the mid second century. We can speculate all sorts of reasons that we lack earlier evidence of their existence, but then we are merely trying to explain why we don't have the evidence for what we want to be true.

As for the meaning imputed to the crucifixion of Jesus, among the earliest sources is a range of views. Some spoke of his death as a ransom being paid to "the devil" to release the dead from Hades. Others treated his death the same way some treated the (momentary) death of Isaac (some traditions said Isaac was slain but restored immediately) and the Maccabean martyrs -- the blood atoned for all sins of Israel.

There is also good reason to think that the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of Mark was a careful personification or metaphor for the people of Israel, especially their demise in 70 and even perhaps 135 CE. But one thing is sure: we have no clear cut evidence that anyone had heard of a gospel narrative until the middle of the second century -- and that first evidence comes with Marcion apparently producing his gospel (whether that was based on an earlier gospel we don't know). And once one was known, a cottage industry of producing lots more was begun.

Before then, who knows? We have the Book of Revelation. Perhaps the Ascension of Isaiah.
You're clearly quite knowledgeable in the area. My question is isn't the mythical-historical debate a false dichotomy? I mean, whether the story was written to be a myth is not the same as whether it was written to be taken as history but was "fake news" so to speak. Similarly, "myth" is just one sub-type of fiction and tons of works of fiction that everyone accepts are fiction can still incorporate fragments of real people or events in them. I mean there might have been a city boy cop who moved to a beach resort town in Rhode Island at some point, yet Jaws is still fiction.
 
^Carrier always tries to show how Jews are incapable of any original thought, that they always take their ideas from other cultures. He does not recognize that life, death and resurrection are central concerns of all cultures. Here is a Jewish view of the resurrection of Jesus from Harry Waton:

No facts in history are so absolutely certain as the resurrection and ascension to heaven of Jesus. Does this sound strange to Jews? Are they not familiar with such ideas? What about Moses? Was not Moses resurrected, and did he not go up to heaven? Who was Moses, and who was Jesus? When we speak of Moses and Jesus, we do not think of their physical bodies; we think of their souls and minds. Did the soul and mind of Moses die? And so it was in the case of Jesus: his soul and mind did not die. Let us consider the facts. When Jesus lived, he attracted only the poor, the ignorant, the sinner, the lost sheep of Israel. In his lifetime he did not accomplish much. He was crucified, and it seemed that all came to an end. Yet, what happened? The disciples of Jesus rallied, they began to work, and in he course of centuries a Christian world was created. What is the soul and life of the Christian world? Jesus is the soul and life of this world. Was not Jesus resurrected, does he not live? Jesus will live to the end of time, just as Moses will live to the end of time. The resurrection and ascension of Jesus is an absolute and eternal fact, just as the resurrection and ascension of Moses is an eternal and absolute fact. The death of Jesus was a condition to his resurrection; he had to die that he should live. Only through his death did he begin to live and bring forth the fruits of that life. Death is a condition to life. Unless a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but, if it dieth, it brings forth an abundance of fruit. Jesus had to be crucified that salvation might come to the non-Jews, and that the Jews should be preserved.

Atheists continue the 2000 year practice of writing Jews out of their own culture and literature.
 
Last edited:
  • Jesus and Moses experienced a spiritual transcendence.
Waton, Harry (1947-1955). A true monistic philosophy: comprehending the absolute, God, existence, man, society and history. New York: Spinoza Institute of America.
 
Atheists continue the 2000 year practice of writing Jews out of their own culture and literature.

"Daniel Boyarin, Scholar of Religion - Eshkolot | Jewish culture in edutainment format". web.archive.org. 7 July 2022.


"The Suffering Savior: An Ancient Jewish Expectation (w/ Dr. Daniel Boyarin)". YouTube. 30 September 2023. See full @URL

Boyarin says (again my emphasis):
Let me make clear I am not claiming that Jesus and his followers contributed nothing new to the story of a suffering and dying messiah.

I am claiming that even this innovation, if indeed they innovated, was entirely within the spirit and hermeneutical method of ancient Judaism, and not a scandalous departure from it.

Boyarin, The Jewish Gospels, p. 124

In other words, Boyarin is saying “the story of a suffering and dying messiah” predates Christianity...

--Carrier (2 April 2024). "Simone's Series on How to Read the Talmud: Boyarin and the Dying Messiah Concept". Richard Carrier Blogs.
 
Wilhite, David E.; Winn, Adam (2024). "Israel's Lord: YHWH as "Two Powers" in Second Temple Literature". Rowman & Littlefield.
Orlov, Andrei (2019). "The Glory of the Invisible God: Two Powers in Heaven Traditions and Early Christology". Bloomsbury Publishing.
“The speaker is despised, and with respect to this particular contempt, no one is like him. This refers directly to the suffering servant of God in Isaiah, about whom it is also said that he is “despised” (nivzeh), a “man of suffering,” who “has borne our infirmities” (Isa. 53:3–4). It is fitting that the speaker “bears all griefs” and “suffers evil” like no one else (line 9). The author thus models himself at the same time as the suffering servant of God in Isaiah 53, thereby presumably placing himself in the messianic interpretative tradition of the Suffering Servant Songs. As a suffering Messiah, he is raised up in an unparalleled manner onto a throne in heaven, which even the Israelite kings cannot claim for themselves”

(p. 35)

--Schäfer, Peter (2020). "Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity". Princeton University Press.
 
I just went back to the Wikipedia page on the Christ myth theory...

"Christ myth theory". Wikipedia.
"Christ myth theory". RationalWiki.
"Jesus myth theory". RationalWiki.
"Critics of the historicity of Jesus". RationalWiki.



If there is no God, there may yet have been a historical Jesus. If Jesus never existed, there might still be a God. The two questions are quite different, I would say unrelated. You will certainly find many atheists who believe there was a historical Jesus and even admire him in the same way they regard, say, Confucius. They are rarer, but you can even find Christians (like Roman Catholic monk and New Testament scholar Thomas L. Brodie) who do not believe there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth who walked the earth in ancient times. This book does not consider theism and atheism, being instead devoted to the question of the Christ Myth in its many versions.

The opinion that Jesus never existed is a very old one. The pseudonymous author of 2 Peter found himself in a defensive posture when he wrote, “We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty” (2 Peter 1:16). He was fibbing, but that’s not my point here. Rather, it shows that at least as early as the middle of the second century CE when this pious forgery was composed, some critics of Christianity were denying the Christian savior had ever lived. Strangely, you will find that mainstream biblical scholars mount a similar argument to 2 Peter’s. That ancient author was appealing to the past to defend a historical Christ, claiming to have seen Jesus in person. In a mirror-image version, today’s scholars also appeal to ancient history in order to discredit Mythicism by claiming there were no ancient Jesus Mythicists. How odd to hear them echoing the maxim of Medieval Catholics: “If it’s new it’s not true. If it’s true it’s not new.” Such opponents of Mythicism seem to believe that, without an ancient pedigree, a theory need not be taken seriously, never mind that their own rational-critical approach to Jesus studies is a historically recent invention.

Yes, mainstream academics laugh off Jesus Mythicism, consigning it (and those who espouse it) to the same “weirdo file” as moon landing deniers. Why? Because Mythicism is indefensible nonsense? That might be so, but I cannot help understanding the situation along the lines of Peter Berger's theory of “plausibility structures,” according to which the plausibility of any notion is proportional to the number of one’s peers who believe it. The result is “consensus scholarship,” a box outside of which nothing can be taken seriously. Minority ideas will automatically appear bizarre and heretical. It is not that consensus scholars are afraid to dissent from the party line, lest they lose their jobs. No, it is more a matter of social psychology. But I am no mind reader, so I never dare try to explain away someone’s rejection of my opinion on this basis.

In fact, as Thomas S. Kuhn explains in his great book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, advances in science proceed at least as much by new paradigms for construing data as by the discovery of new data. New models, theories, and paradigms are suggestions for making new and better sense of the data we already had. These new notions must prove themselves by running the gauntlet of collegial criticism. That’s the way it has to be; you don’t want your colleagues to just accept your theory by faith. You want it to win out, so you welcome the initial skepticism. And eventually, despite their investment in traditional consensus viewpoints, your peers may be convinced, and your once-eccentric theory may become the consensus position—until some other upstart supplants it.

This is what happened with Continental Drift: once scientists dismissed it like Flat Earthism, but eventually, with the rise of Plate Tectonics, the wind shifted, and scientists reluctantly admitted that the fact that the outlines of the continents fit together like puzzle pieces was no mere coincidence. Heresy has morphed into Orthodoxy. It has also happened (many times) in the field of biblical studies. The most drastic recent instance is that of so-called “Old Testament Minimalism,” the theory that Hebrew scriptural characters were almost all mythical: not just Adam and Eve, not only Cain and Abel, Enoch and Noah, but even Father Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon. The pioneer theorist of Minimalism, Thomas L. Thompson, was forced out of a promising academic career and had to take up house painting to make a living—until the tide finally turned. Now everybody’s a Minimalist, everybody but fundamentalists, that is. And now Professor Thompson has received the recognition he deserved all along.

It turns out that the factors that led to Old Testament Minimalism (archaeological reevaluation, tradition criticism, etc.) are also operative in Jesus Mythicism, which ought, in fact, to be called “New Testament Minimalism.” I expect, or suspect, that the wheel will keep turning and that Jesus Mythicism will sooner or later gain similar acceptance—not that I'll ever live to see it. I’m not even rooting for it. To me, it’s just a fascinating subject. And I’m far from alone in this. The contributors to the present collection are creatures, eccentrics, like me. And, though we are few (at least at present), there is a surprising range of theories among us. And I think it will always be this way, because that’s the way it is in scholarship.

As you are probably aware, today’s mainstream Jesus scholarship is quite diverse. Many theories have attracted dedicated partisans, people who conclude that the historical Jesus was a revolutionist (Robert Eisenman, Peter Cresswell), a feminist (Elisabeth Schiissler Fiorenza, Luise Schottroff), a Cynic sage (John Dominic Crossan, F. Gerald Downing; Burton L. Mack, David Seeley), a Pharisee (Harvey Falk, Hyam Maccoby), a Hasidic master (Geza Vermes), a shaman (Stevan L. Davies, Gaetano Salomone), a magician (Morton Smith), a community organizer (Richard A. Horsley), an apocalyptic prophet (Bart D. Ehrman, Richard Arthur), and so on. It would be easy and tempting for an external observer to shake his head and to judge that all these Jesus reconstructions, though a pretty good case can be made for most of them, cancel each other out. If this one is as likely as the others, why choose any one of them? Well, of course, you have to look into them all (if you want to have the right to an informed opinion) and then make your own decision. But most likely it will be a tentative one—as it must be if you want to be intellectually honest. Your conviction should not be stronger than the (fragmentary and ambiguous) evidence allows.

If someday Jesus Mythicism should dominate the field, I’m afraid this predicament would not change. As this book will make absolutely clear, there are just as many Mythicist theories. Some believe that Jesus was a fiction devised by the Flavian regime in order to pacify Jews who had the nasty habit of violently rebelling against Rome. Others argue that Jesus was a Jewish/Essene version of the equally mythical Gautama Buddha. Another option is that Jesus was, like the Vedic Soma, a mythical personification of the sacred mushroom, Amanita Muscaria. Or perhaps Jesus was a historicization of the Gnostic Man of Light. Was Jesus a Philonic heavenly high priest figure? And there are more. I believe you will find yourself surprised and impressed by the cogency of these hypotheses. Once you probably regarded all these theories (if you ever even heard of them!) as equally fantastic. After you've finished Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?, you may very well find them equally plausible. And who says you have to settle on any one of them? It’s worth the mental effort to grasp and weigh each one. I say, let a hundred flowers bloom!

--Robert M. Price (2021). "Introduction: New Testament Minimalism". In Loftus; Price (in en). Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?. HYPATIA Press. ISBN 978-1-83919-158-9.



Richard Carrier—as asserted by Lataster—seems to be the first to examine the issue of Jesus’ historicity by incorporating a direct and probabilistic (and also logically exhaustive) comparative analysis of the plausible hypotheses.

Which is the basis for Carrier's sustained argument for Jesus’ ahistoricity and which is not comparable to any other work by a contemporary scholar who also holds the mythicism position.
Since my book On the Historicity of Jesus was published, for convenience I have been collecting here links to all the responses I’ve published to defenders of the historicity of Jesus. This article will be continually updated with new entries. Within the listed categories I will keep the order alphabetical by last name of the scholar or “critic” responded to (when I know it). Critics marked with † made their arguments in formal academic treatments (in peer reviewed journals or monographs).

If anyone sees formal written responses or reviews (in print or online) to my books on this topic (whether On the Historicity of Jesus or Proving History or Jesus from Outer Space), please direct me to them in comments here. Please also remark upon any merits you think that response has (or if you think it’s rubbish). I won’t bother replying to all of them. But I’d like to keep a running collection in any case.

Important general articles addressing everyone on this debate are How to Argue Jesus Existed, How Would We Know Jesus Existed?, and Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus. And an index to all I’ve written since 2014 affecting the thesis of OHJ will be available at An Ongoing List of Updates to the Arguments and Evidence in On the Historicity of Jesus.

I also maintain a List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously and an Open Thread On the Historicity of Jesus where questions can continually be posed in comments.

--Carrier (18 June 2014). "List of Responses to Defenders of the Historicity of Jesus". Richard Carrier Blogs. Retrieved 1 August 2024.



davidmartin (Jul 31, 2024) ↑ said: "...both the outcomes of the fictional and the historical lead to the same outcomes..."

Ultimately I don’t think the dying and rising god thing, though fascinating, really bears on mythicism, because Rudolf Bultmann and Joseph McCabe and various others have long said there were dying and rising god myths and they were among the resources early Christians used to mythologize the historical Jesus.

Bultmann goes into all of this stuff, but he thinks there was a historical Jesus, it was just he was made over in this image as he was.. with a gnostic redeemer and the Jewish Messiah. If you could prove that there were dependencies of genealogical relationship—that wouldn’t really reflect on mythicism verses historicism anyway. So in a way it’s like a moot point, as fascinating as it is.

--Robert M. Price @Time: 01:46:30". YouTube. MythVision Podcast. 2019.
My question is isn't the mythical-historical debate a false dichotomy? I mean, whether the story was written to be a myth is not the same as whether it was written to be taken as history but was "fake news" so to speak. Similarly, "myth" is just one sub-type of fiction and tons of works of fiction that everyone accepts are fiction can still incorporate fragments of real people or events in them. I mean there might have been a city boy cop who moved to a beach resort town in Rhode Island at some point, yet Jaws is still fiction.

--stanley (30JUL2024) "The Christ Myth Theory". Internet Infidels Discussion Board. 29 May 2022.
 
Last edited:
Atheists continue the 2000 year practice of writing Jews out of their own culture and literature.

A central feature of the Jewish two powers concept is evident in various texts and traditions—from the early biblical narratives—to later apocalyptic and rabbinic literature.

One of the most prominent examples of this hierarchy is the concept of the divine council, often referred to as the "sons of God" or "bene elohim." These celestial beings, while possessing divine attributes and powers, are clearly subordinate to Yahweh, the supreme God. This hierarchical relationship is evident in texts like Psalm 82, where the divine beings are addressed as gods but are ultimately judged by Yahweh.

The Book of Daniel provides another significant example of this. The vision of the "Ancient of Days" and the "Son of Man" establishes a clear distinction between a supreme, transcendent God and a subordinate, yet exalted, human figure. This vision served as a blueprint for later messianic and apocalyptic literature, which often depicted similar hierarchical arrangements among celestial beings.

The pseudepigrapha, a collection of apocryphal and later Jewish writings, further elaborate on the Jewish two powers concept. These texts introduce complex layers of celestial beings with varying degrees of power and authority, all ultimately subordinate to the supreme God. For example, the Book of Enoch describes a multi-tiered heavenly realm with archangels, watchers, and other celestial beings, each occupying a specific rank within the cosmic hierarchy.

The relationship between God and celestial beings was crucial for Jewish conceptions of cosmic order, divine governance, and the nature of salvation. It provided a framework for understanding the roles and responsibilities of different divine entities within the heavenly realm and their relationship to the human world.
 
Back
Top Bottom