The Christ Myth Theory

[Swammerdami]

Who was it about if not James?

(a) This is an otherwise unknown/unremarkable 'a certain James and some others' (or similar wording), who is remembered only in this notice by Josephus, the plausibility of which can be allowed because of how common the name is.

FIRST: It's important to note that there were many thousands of remarkable stories from that time and place whose mention survives in ZERO documents.. Josephus mentions by name several governors, kings, high priests, etc. How many lower-status Romans does he mention by name? Non-Romans? Anyone?

The fact that James is mentioned in even ONE history already makes him remarkable! "Otherwise unremarkable" is special pleading since Josephus is almost the ONLY source for much of 1st-century Judaea.

Hegasippus also mentions a James the Just being executed. Execution details DIFFER from the Josephus account? Are these probably the same person anyway?

I just asked to know whether the James of Hegasippus, Josephus, and Paul/Luke were all one and the same, or three different Jameses. Or perhaps Josephus and Paul/Luke are two different Jameses, and Hegasippus conflated the two?

(b) James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

This solution (b) strikes me as utterly laughable. I wonder if folks who disagree have reviewed Josephus' long paragraph, and have thought about it for a full minute. Other Infidels? Do you see why I consider it laughable?

 

[Swammerdami]

(b) James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.

This solution (b) strikes me as utterly laughable. I wonder if folks who disagree have reviewed Josephus' long paragraph, and have thought about it for a full minute. Other Infidels? Do you see why I consider it laughable?

To be clear: Carrier's Jesus ben Damneus "solution" has one High Priest assassinate James the Just; the Governor then replaces that High Priest with another: Jesus ben Damneus -- alleged brother of the same James the Just! Does this strike you as plausible? Does it seem likely the assassinated Christian had a brother about to be named High Priest?

What's the "reasoning" of Carrier or his cultists? Nothing that I can see. Except the coincidence that two different Jesuses appear on the same page, each mentioned only a single time. One Jesus (possibly "called Christ") at the beginning of an over-sized paragraph, the other Jesus ("ben Damneus") mention is at the end. (The High Priest who ordered the objectionable assassination of a just man is dismissed; the incident closes with naming his replacement.)

 

[SIB]

I just went back to the Wikipedia page on the Christ myth theory, which I haven't looked at in years, to find it is basically being portrayed as analogous to Young Earth Creationism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory . And, Internet Infidels/Secular Web gets a mention:

Ehrman notes that "the mythicists have become loud, and thanks to the Internet they've attracted more attention".[380] Within a few years of the inception of the World Wide Web (c. 1990), mythicists such as Earl Doherty began to present their argument to a larger public via the internet.[note 35] Doherty created the website The Jesus Puzzle in 1996,[web 24] while the organization Internet Infidels has featured the works of mythicists on their website[381] and mythicism has been mentioned on several popular news sites.[382]

Since its resurgence in the 1970's, proponents of the Christ Myth Theory have only managed to publish one peer reviewed book on the topic, "On The Historicity Of Jesus" by Dr. Richard Carrier, with the footnote that this was published by Sheffield, who also published Thomas Brodie's mythicist autobiography, so they seem to like that sort of thing. The only related peer reviewed publication was by Dr. Raphael Lataster, arguing for Jesus Agnosticism. I have interviewed Richard before and find his argument rigorous and plausible, though I ultimately disagree with mythicism on interpretive grounds.

What do others think of Jesus Mythicism? Do you find it plausible, or finge/crank? Would anyone be interested in discussing the recent Loftus/Price mythicist book Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist.

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I realize I'm raising this in the context of Internet Infidels / Secular Web, where Richard used to work, and he has a significant online following, so there may be some interesting discussions to be had!

Do Ideas exist? Do we exist?

We dismantle us piece by piece. lol, that sounds funny. We study those pieces in great detail. Neither do we find. Does that that mean we do not exist? There are many levels and rows here, but lets just focus on the big picture.

I call it fundy-think. I am not a writer so the only way I can convey the idea is list how a fundamental Christian (or any religious person) would sound. How would that mixture of personality traits sound as an atheist. Jesus literally true or false is the key to identifying them. That type of person needs these to be true or false or they cannot function. Sometimes I wish our brains can go "blue screen". Keep these people out of our hair.

Like politics, this topic fraught with personal agenda. Otherwise this is simple. The belief in "something more" matches observation better than the reverse belief. Fundy-think-type atheism makes as much sense as fundy-think-type religion. "No-gods or god of any type" or you are weak minded, needy, and delusional. Is equal, but opposite, to "My-god-only" or you die.

"Jesus" represents an idea at this point. Like a flag. Its just a word that symbolizes "liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all". "all" doesn't mean every single person. allah, yhwh, spirit of wolf, dream time, or any things like that. Even Buddhist where me, myself, and I is the god. all basically the same thing. Ignoring the "my way or highway" type. Be careful tho, "They have rights too", holding to that can be turned into a weapon also by, the ever present, "fundy-think-type" or broken brain brained.

So, for me, "Jesus as the focal point" to help ourselves not trip over ourselves is fine. I don't need him, I like Washington, Lincoln, and Sherman myself. It seems a focal point, due to human nature, is necessary for humans in achieving any goal. Here, be at least, as nice as I was yesterday. Its the fundy-think-types that get a hold of it and weaponize it. weather atheist or theist doesn't really matter all that much.

Plausible or crank? We have to define some things ...

Recall: no real true or false here, unless a fundy-think-type or broken brain (broken means something happened, like abuse or addiction). And of course those fighting religion ... they are politic-ing. Think of how you how talk about belief if you are fighting religion and trying to suppress anything they can use. I would talk about belief different if I am focusing on stop religion vs describing how the universe works yo the best of our abilities in a belief forum too. But I would be honest also.

List the beliefs we have to choose from then to see. It doesn't have to even be "pick one" put them is a relative reliability list.

• no gods or god of any type
• I don't have to say anything (sliding scale here: In a belief forum: then don't. thousands of posts over years is most certainly saying something, time to man up.)
• something more: Jesus myth seems to fit this ... sort of. Again, sort of a sliding scale here. from "that all powerful energy thingie to the "human hive mind"
• My god only.

"irreligious" is often used as misinformation by some atheist. More atheist believe in "something more". At least around me.

I think the ideas that Jesus taught are real enough but some cranks got hold of them and weaponized them.
Just one inter-hack's thought.