• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Christ Myth Theory

[T]he HJ is a threat to those who promote Jesus mythicism which must be neutralised, indeed the weoponising of the debate answers itself...

--davidmartin ( Aug 01, 2024)
  • Well then! It is fortunate that leading mythicism scholars do not not assert that the historicity of Jesus is a black or white scenario.
R. M. Price writes, “I don’t think you can ‘prove’ either that a historical Jesus existed or that he didn’t. What you can do is to construe the same old evidence in a new way that makes more natural, less contrived, sense.”

Carrier—who gives at best a 1 in 3 (~33%) chance that Jesus existed—writes, "I am not engaging in ‘tactics’, I am simply stating what is true. If I had found the odds of historicity to be 50/50, that’s what I would have reported my findings to be. I reported what I found."
 
[T]he HJ is a threat to those who promote Jesus mythicism which must be neutralised, indeed the weoponising of the debate answers itself...

--davidmartin ( Aug 01, 2024)
  • Well then! It is fortunate that leading mythicism scholars do not not assert that the historicity of Jesus is a black or white scenario.
R. M. Price writes, “I don’t think you can ‘prove’ either that a historical Jesus existed or that he didn’t. What you can do is to construe the same old evidence in a new way that makes more natural, less contrived, sense.”

Carrier—who gives at best a 1 in 3 (~33%) chance that Jesus existed—writes, "I am not engaging in ‘tactics’, I am simply stating what is true. If I had found the odds of historicity to be 50/50, that’s what I would have reported my findings to be. I reported what I found."
Heh. Carrier declared on this Board his adhesion to the mythicist cause long before he started his Bayesian dice-loading.
 
Carrier declared on this Board his adhesion to the mythicist cause long before...
Where? Cite please.

Many critics of leading mythicist scholarship, assume that the motivation behind the arguments is a hostility towards religion in general and Christianity in particular.

However that canard will not fly (so to speak), since the worst way for anyone to attempt to undermine a person’s faith is to deny the very existence of the figure at the center of their faith.

Carrier opines that one should, "Dump the strategy of arguing that Christianity (or the New Testament, or this or that teaching, or anything whatever) is false 'because Jesus didn’t exist.'"

Lataster writes, "Christian believers should generally not become involved in this debate, nor should non-believers thrust it upon them. . . . I have no desire to upset Christians."

James Crossley said:
[Instead] of more polemical reactions on all sides of these debates about the historicity of Jesus, perhaps it would be more worthwhile to see what can be learned. In the case of Lataster’s book and the position it represents, scepticism about historicity is worth thinking about seriously—and, in light of demographic changes, it might even feed into a dominant position in the near future.

(p. xiii.)

Foreword in Lataster, Raphael (2019). Questioning the Historicity of Jesus: Why a Philosophical Analysis Elucidates the Historical Discourse. Brill-Rodopi. ISBN 978-9004397934.
 
Carrier declared on this Board his adhesion to the mythicist cause long before...
Where? Cite please.

It was years ago. Didn't Peter Kirby get hold of the BC&H archive? Carrier made a post declaring his endorsement of the myth theory.

Many critics of leading mythicist scholarship, assume that the motivation behind the arguments is a hostility towards religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Whatever the motives of the myth proponents, they provide an opportunity to discuss Jesus in ways that are not restricted by traditional religion. I am grateful for that. I am pushing my own understanding of Jesus by arguing with mythicists. My own understanding is based on the work of Jewish scholars. These scholars correctly see Jesus as a phenomenon within the history and development of Judaism. I see that some mythicists are now taking seriously the question of the Jewish Jesus. This is a huge step up from the "dying and rising gods" of yore.
 
Carrier declared on this Board his adhesion to the mythicist cause long before...
Where? Cite please.

It was years ago. Didn't Peter Kirby get hold of the BC&H archive? Carrier made a post declaring his endorsement of the myth theory.
Not correct.

Earl Doherty published:
On 11 May 1996, Doherty posted The Jesus Puzzle articles—that had been previously published by Humanist in Canada—on his website: The Jesus Puzzle: Was There No Historical Jesus?

Carrier's review was presented on the website: Secular Web of Internet Infidels
Carrier, in 2008, received a $20,000 grant to research the historicity of Jesus. And published:
  • Carrier, Richard (2012). Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus. Prometheus Books. ISBN 978-1-61614-560-6.
  • Carrier, Richard (2014). On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt. Sheffield Phoenix Press. ISBN 978-1-909697-35-5.
  • Carrier, Richard (2014). "Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt: Should We Still Be Looking for a Historical Jesus?". The Bible and Interpretation.
  • Carrier, Richard (2020). Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. Pitchstone Publishing. ISBN 978-1-63431-208-0.
  • Carrier, Richard (2020). "Jesus from Outer Space?". The Bible and Interpretation.
Circa 2010 Carrier opined that the ahistoricity of Jesus was likely more probable then the historicity of Jesus.
 
I have made some headway with the archive. I found this post from 2007: Carrier Converts to Mythicist Position.
  • LOL, per youngalexander, admitting to the plausibility of ahistoricty makes one a FRINGE Mythicist!!!
Funk, Davies, and Hoffmann admit to the plausibility of mythicism, but not to its probability; they all believe the historicity of Jesus is more probable. "But even that" Carrier opines, "would be progress, if it became the consensus position [i.e. that mythicism is at least plausibile]."

The Vridar blog is not a “Jesus mythicist” blog even though it is open to a critical discussion of the question of Jesus’ historicity. I do not see secure grounds for believing in the historicity of Jesus but it does not follow that I reject Jesus’ historicity. Clearly, the Jesus of the Gospels and Paul’s letters is a literary and theological construct but it does not follow that there was no "historical Jesus"

--Godfrey, Neil (8 February 2020). "Interview with Thomas L. Thompson #1". Vridar.

In the following list I present in bold text those historians who either doubt the historicity of Jesus or have admitted to being agnostic about it (as in, they are unsure whether he existed or not). All the other scholars listed are convinced Jesus existed—they still don’t think “Mythicism” is probable (the idea that Jesus is entirely, and not just partially, mythical)—but they have gone on record admitting that at least some theories of the origin of Christianity without a real Jesus can be plausible enough that the debate is worth taking seriously, and not just dismissed out of hand as crackpot.
  1. Thomas Brodie. A now-retired Professor of Biblical Studies who confessed his doubts in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (Sheffield Phoenix 2012); see my discussion in Historicity News and Brodie on Jesus.
  2. Richard Carrier (myself). An independent scholar with a PhD in Ancient History from Columbia University and multiple peer-reviewed publications, including the academic study On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reasons for Doubt (Sheffield Phoenix 2014). My colloquial summary, Jesus from Outer Space, outlines in simple terms the underlying logic of that peer-reviewed study. My anthology Hitler Homer Bible Christ includes all my pertinent peer-reviewed journal articles up to 2014. And my study of the methodology, which was peer-reviewed by professors of both mathematics and biblical studies (a requirement I set in my contract), is Proving History: Bayes’s Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus (Prometheus 2012).
  3. Raphael Lataster. An independent scholar with a PhD in Religious Studies from the University of Sydney, who explained his doubts in his peer-reviewed assessment of the debate in Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (Brill 2019).
  4. Robert M. Price. An independent scholar with two pertinent PhDs, in Systematic Theology and New Testament Studies. He has multiple publications explaining his doubts, e.g. The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (American Atheist 2012).
  5. Thomas Thompson. A retired yet renowned Professor of Biblical Studies and Second-Temple Judaism, who originated the now-consensus doubts about the historicity of Moses and the Patriarchs, and explained his similar doubts about Jesus in The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David (Basic Books 2009) and Is This Not The Carpenter? The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus (Routledge 2017).
  6. Philip Davies. A Professor of Biblical Studies (now deceased) with a PhD in the field from Oxford, who publicly argued that doubting historicity was a respectable academic position; and then privately admitted that in fact he actually doubted the historicity of Jesus. This was posthumously confirmed by correspondence with Raphael Lataster and myself (e.g. see Lataster 2019).
  7. Hector Avalos. At the time a sitting Professor of Religion at Iowa State University (now deceased), with a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Near Eastern Studies from Harvard, who declared his agnosticism about historicity to me personally, and then publicly in the Ames Tribune on 2 March 2013.
  8. Arthur Droge. A sitting Professor of Early Christianity, previously at UC San Diego and later the University of Toronto, with a PhD in the field from the University of Chicago, who explained his agnosticism at the 2008 Amherst conference on the historical Jesus, and in its associated 2009 article for CAESAR, “Jesus and Ned Lud[d]: What’s in a Name?”
  9. Carl Ruck. A Professor of Classical Studies at Boston University, with a PhD in ancient literature from Harvard, who confessed his doubts on a Mythvision interview in May 2022 (in minute 31).
  10. David Madison. An independent scholar with a PhD in Biblical Studies from Boston University, who publicly confirmed his agnosticism in Q&A during the GCRR 2021 e Conference on the Historical Jesus.
  11. J. Harold Ellens. A Professor of Biblical Studies at the Ecumenical Theological Seminary of Detroit (now deceased) with a history of numerous honors, publications, and positions in the field, including a PhD in Second Temple Judaism and Christian Origins from Michigan University. In Sources of the Jesus Tradition (Prometheus 2010) he repeatedly expressed his doubts as to the historical existence of Jesus (see comment for quoted examples).
  12. Nicholas Peter Allen. A Professor of Ancient Languages and Text Studies at North-West University with two PhD’s (in Art History and Ancient Greek Studies) and a considerable body of relevant publications. In his book The Jesus Fallacy: The Greatest Lie Ever Told (2022) he defends considerable doubt that Jesus existed, allowing only for its sparse possibility.
  13. Rodney Blackhirst. A Lecturer in Philosophy and Religious Studies at La Trobe University (and prior to that, Biblical Studies) with a Ph.D. in ancient religion from La Trobe and several publications in the field. He has been known to endorse Joseph Atwill’s crankery, and has said some dubious things, but has subsequently explained that he actually has many disagreements with Atwill, and only thinks theories like it are worth pursuing. And though he doesn’t “discount the possibility” of a historical Jesus, “his own leaning is towards a mythical” one.
  14. Derek Murphy. An author with a Ph.D. in Comparative Literature from National Taiwan University. He wrote Jesus Potter Harry Christ (2011) arguing Jesus was not historical but a product of folklore.
  15. Marian Hillar. A Professor of Philosophy and Religious Studies and Biochemistry at Texas Southern University. Though he only has an M.D. and a Ph.D. in Biochemistry (which ordinarily I would not allow to qualify), he is an internationally renowned expert in religious studies (especially Renaissance Christianity), and published an excellent and prestigious peer-reviewed study of the pre-history of the Christian idea of the Trinity, From Logos to Trinity: The Evolution of Religious Beliefs from Pythagoras to Tertullian (Cambridge University Press 2012), in which he declares the quest for the historical Jesus a failure and quotes Earl Doherty’s thesis favorably (pp. 135–37); elsewhere he has said there is “evidence that there was no particular figure of Jesus.”
  16. Christophe Batsch. A retired professor of Second Temple Judaism (and of Roman, Slavic, and Middle Eastern Studies at Université de Lille) with a PhD in the same and a considerable publication record. In a chapter he contributed to Juifs et chrétiens aux premiers siècles (CERC 2019) he declares his agnosticism, calling the question of historicity “strictly undecidable” (rigoureusement indécidable), and says those who claim to have proved or disproved the existence of Jesus “only express a spontaneous and personal conviction, devoid of any scientific foundation” (ne font qu’exprimer une conviction spontanée et personnelle, dénuée de tout fondement scientifique), so whether any material goes back to a real man is plausible but unknown.
  17. Charlotte Touati. A professor of theology and religion at the University of Lausanne, with a Ph.D. in theology from the University of Strasbourg (and a Ph.D. in Literature from the University of Neuchâtel). She confirmed in private correspondence that she believes there is no good evidence for a historical Jesus.
  18. Herman Detering. A lifelong pastor and independent scholar with a PhD in Theology and New Testament studies under Dr. Walter Schmithals at Humboldt-Universität Berlin. His doctoral dissertation argued that Paul was a rhetorical invention, and though he suspects Jesus existed in some sense, he conceded doubt still needed to be taken seriously.
  19. Zeba Crook. A Professor of Religious Studies at Carleton University, with a PhD in theology (like Bart Ehrman, and most Biblical scholars nowadays) from St. Michael’s College. He defends the historicity of Jesus but has publicly explained that it’s nevertheless plausible to doubt or debate it (Facebook, 30 December 2017 and 2 January 2018).
  20. Kurt Noll. A sitting Professor of Religion at Brandon University, with a PhD in theology from the Union Theological Seminary in Virginia. He is a historicist who admits it’s nevertheless plausible to theorize Jesus might not have existed, as he explains in a chapter he contributed to Is This Not the Carpenter, “Investigating Earliest Christianity Without Jesus.”
  21. Emanuel Pfoh. A sitting Professor of History at the National University of La Plata. He is a historicist who admits it’s nevertheless plausible to theorize Jesus might not have existed, as he explains in a chapter he contributed to Is This Not the Carpenter, “Jesus and the Mythic Mind: An Epistemological Problem” (cf. p. 92).
  22. James Crossley. A sitting Professor of the Bible at St. Mary’s University with a PhD in the field from the University of Nottingham. He is a historicist who nevertheless wrote in the preface to Lataster 2019 that “scepticism about historicity is worth thinking about seriously—and, in light of demographic changes, it might even feed into a dominant position in the near future.”
  23. [...]
Which makes forty-four relevantly qualified experts now who concur mythicism is at least plausible. A third of them are even outright doubters. There are surely many others who simply haven’t gone on the record—just like Davies, who feared backlash from admitting his doubt publicly while alive. If you find public statements placing any more scholars in either category, do let me know in comments below. Though please note that only scholars with relevant PhDs are to be listed here.

--Carrier (25 August 2022). "List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously". Richard Carrier Blogs.
 
Last edited:
In fact, no one in mainstream New Testament scholarship denies that Jesus was a Jew.--William Arnal

[A] malformed consensus cannot be used as an argument—it is, rather, its own refutation (see, again, On Evaluating Arguments from Consensus). Only scholars who have checked all these things have relevant opinions. Everyone else literally does not know what they are talking about. Sometimes intentionally. Sometimes owing to bad practices inculcated in their training. Sometimes due to laziness or disinterest. But regardless of the why, the what remains: the ignorant are not relevant authorities.

Citing such scholars on this matter is therefore a textbook example of the fallacy of Argument from Authority. If they haven’t checked, they can’t know. And if they can’t know, their being mere “experts” in the field is of no relevance.

--Carrier (10 October 2023). "Things Fall Apart Only When You Check: The Main Reason the Historicity of Jesus Continues to Be Believed". Richard Carrier Blogs.
 
^Mythicism is essentially reactionary. It seeks to eliminate from history one of the great revolutionaries. Ultimately, it seeks to wipe out Moses, the prophets and Biblical literature generally. It is of a piece with the disparagement of Marx.
 
^Mythicism is essentially reactionary.

Two Powers in Heaven - Jewish Texts and History
Wilhite, David E.; Winn, Adam (2024). "Israel's Lord: YHWH as "Two Powers" in Second Temple Literature". Rowman & Littlefield.
Orlov, Andrei (2019). "The Glory of the Invisible God: Two Powers in Heaven Traditions and Early Christology". Bloomsbury Publishing.
“The speaker is despised, and with respect to this particular contempt, no one is like him. This refers directly to the suffering servant of God in Isaiah, about whom it is also said that he is “despised” (nivzeh), a “man of suffering,” who “has borne our infirmities” (Isa. 53:3–4). It is fitting that the speaker “bears all griefs” and “suffers evil” like no one else (line 9). The author thus models himself at the same time as the suffering servant of God in Isaiah 53, thereby presumably placing himself in the messianic interpretative tradition of the Suffering Servant Songs. As a suffering Messiah, he is raised up in an unparalleled manner onto a throne in heaven, which even the Israelite kings cannot claim for themselves”

(p. 35)

--Schäfer, Peter (2020). "Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity". Princeton University Press
Both were divine! The question is .. Was one of them was ever presented as an innovative synthesis of Jewish scriptures that a Jewish reader could plausibly interpret to be about a suffering messiah + dying + rising?
Unfortunately for the historicist, there is not a single piece of evidence, pre-New Testament, for the mundane Historical Jesus. This is not the case with the Celestial Messiah, who some pre-Christian Jews did honour, as even [Bart] Ehrman now acknowledges.

(p. 184)

--Lataster, Raphael (2016). "Review Essay: Bart Ehrman and the Elusive Historical Jesus". Literature & Aesthetics 26 (1):181–192. ISSN 2200-0437.
Cf.
 
sea change
  1. (idiomatic) A profound transformation; a metamorphosis.


Schäfer, Peter (2020). "Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity". Princeton University Press.

Wilhite, David E.; Winn, Adam (2024). "Israel's Lord: YHWH as "Two Powers" in Second Temple Literature". Rowman & Littlefield.

YouTuber "Godless Engineer" (John Gleason) highlights at time 36:30, Davis' example of Carrier's incompetence in mishandling a citation of Martin Abegg.
YouTuber "Godless Engineer" (John Gleason) questions Boyarin.

וידבר אלקים (vayidber elohim) == "VaYidaber Elokim" == "And God Spoke" == καὶ ἐλάλησεν ὁ θεός (kaí elálisen o theós)

Isaiah’s servant was viewed as the coming Messiah in several Jewish texts of the Second Temple period.

So, is INRI Xed✝️ really an embarrassment? Quite the contrary.

Cf. "Two Powers in Heaven - Jewish Texts and History - Biblical Criticism & History Forum". Early Writings.

 
Last edited:
Title: Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh’s The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part A

(2024)

Part A: Jesus in the Light of Greco-Roman Philosophy and Highly Sophisticated Engagement with the Old Testament

Abstract:

In Part A of a three-part critical review of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature: Contextualizing the New Testament within Greco-Roman Literary Culture, John MacDonald provides a literary application and defense of Walsh’s hypothesis that the Gospels are not, as is usually thought, the product of literate spokespersons conveying the oral tradition of their community, but rather are birthed out of networks of elite Greco-Roman-Jewish writers in dialogue with one another, not downtrodden illiterate peasants. MacDonald aims to show that Walsh's approach makes good sense of the evidence, such as pervasive intertextual haggadic midrash (Jewish) and mimesis (Greek) going on in writing the Gospels, which seems less likely on the “oral tradition of the community” hypothesis. Walsh's critique of the community oral tradition model is important because that model is what bridges the gap from the opaque period of Jesus’ life and death in the 30s through Paul (who is silent on the details of Jesus’ life) to the destruction of the Temple in the 70s, when Mark's gospel appears. A few bare details aside, without this chain of sources, reconstruction of the events of Jesus' life is essentially impossible.

Article: https://infidels.org/library/modern/testing-robyn-faith-walsh-hypothesis-1/


ABSTRACT: This is Part C of a three-part literary application and defense of Robyn Faith Walsh’s recent (2021) hypothesis that the Gospels are not, as is usually thought, the product of literate spokespersons conveying the oral tradition of their community, but rather are birthed out of networks of elite Greco-Roman-Jewish writers in dialogue with one another, not downtrodden illiterate peasants. For example, what if the empty tomb narrative did not originate in the oral tradition of a Christian community, but in empty tomb apotheosis narratives that the author had read from ancient novels like that of Chariton? As a literary test of a hypothesis, I ask what predictions we can make of the kinds of concepts that we should find in the New Testament on Walsh’s literary elite education model, compared to what we should find if the oral tradition model is correct. I show that Walsh’s approach is certainly plausible and makes good sense of the evidence, such as pervasive intertextual haggadic midrash (Jewish) and mimesis (Greek) going on in writing the Gospels, which seems less likely on the “oral tradition of the community” hypothesis. In other words, what sorts of predictions about the text can we make to test Walsh’s hypothesis? If the writers are the product of elite Greco-Roman education (paideia), then certainly the hallmarks of such an education should be visible in the writing. New Testament Jewish intertextuality can be explained away by claiming an oral culture where everyone just has the scriptures memorized (though why a peasant farmer would have the time or inclination to do such a thing is unclear), but what if there was an equal amount of Greco-Roman intertextuality in the New Testament (as Dennis MacDonald has long argued)? And how might this kind of elite Greco-Roman Jewish-educated writer make us rethink core issues, like Jewish polysemy techniques/puzzles in reading the New Testament? My aim is not to extensively recapitulate or assess Walsh’s presentation, but to see if the New Testament writers were experts in Greco-Roman/Jewish literary practices and were sophistically engaging in the content from those traditions beyond what one might expect from a mere literate member of a community enshrining oral traditions about Jesus. Walsh’s critique of the community oral tradition model is important because that model is what bridges the gap from the opaque period of Jesus’ life and death in the 30s through Paul (who is silent on the details of Jesus’ life) to the destruction of the Temple in the 70s, when Mark’s gospel appears. A few bare details aside, without this chain of sources, reconstruction of the events of Jesus’ life is essentially impossible.

CHECK IT OUT HERE!

cc Posted to Thread @-->"Problem with historicism - Christian Texts and History - Biblical Criticism & History Forum". Early Writings.
 
Last edited:
davidmartin said:
Thus, the field is still wide open as it should be...
[Instead] of more polemical reactions on all sides of these debates about the historicity of Jesus, perhaps it would be more worthwhile to see what can be learned.

(p. xiii.)

--James Crossley "Foreword" in Lataster, Raphael (2019). Questioning the Historicity of Jesus: Why a Philosophical Analysis Elucidates the Historical Discourse. Brill-Rodopi. ISBN 978-9004397934.

Earl Doherty published:
On 11 May 1996, Doherty posted The Jesus Puzzle articles—that had been previously published by Humanist in Canada—on his website:
Per the reaction and response to his Jesus Puzzle website and Humanist in Canada articles, Doherty published:
  • "The Jesus Puzzle: Postscript". Humanist in Canada. 117: 20–23, 38. Summer 1996.
Reading Doherty and Wells: the essential difference
  • Reading mythicist books by G. A. Wells is easy.
They are very easy to follow because the arguments are in a very large part a series of dot-point rebuttals to various claims by mainstream historical Jesus scholars.
[. . .]
Doherty does not write in academic jargon but pitches his books for the educated layman. But there is nothing inferior about his insights.

--Godfrey, Neil (27 May 2010). "How and Why Scholars Fail to Rebut Earl Doherty". Vridar.

John MacDonald says:
2018-12-03
It probably would have helped his reception if Doherty had some credentials. If I, who has no credentials in Math, went onto a website for profession mathematicians and asked them to evaluate my idiosyncratic theory, the surprising thing would be if they did take me seriously.

--comment-88755 per "Earl Doherty's First Day with Biblical Scholars on Crosstalk Forum". Vridar. 3 December 2018.

Neil Godfrey says:
2018-12-04
As implied in some of the comments here, what is questionable is not so much the asking for credentials of itself, but who is asking for them, and the way in which the question is asked.

When a highly credentialed person in a field fails to give a clear and unambiguous answer to a question but replies by asking for the credentials lying behind the question, it’s a pretty good indicator that the credentialed person has a problem.

Looking back on those Crosstalk discussions I am reminded how new I was to the question of Jesus mythicism. I was too new and green to enter the discussions myself at that stage, but I was watching and learning the whole time. Among the many things I learned was that those with the credentials so very often had precious little by way of serious reply to the arguments Doherty presented.

I think it was the tone of the responses of the credentialed in that forum (and their failure to address the actual problems Doherty raised) that moved me closer to thinking Doherty might be right.

--comment-88785 per "Earl Doherty's First Day with Biblical Scholars on Crosstalk Forum". Vridar. 3 December 2018.

Bibliography:
N.B. Most (if not all) previously published material+website material were incorporated into the 1999 manuscript The Jesus Puzzle.
 
Last edited:
  • ""Much of the Gospels is Likely Invented" - Dr. Robyn Faith Walsh". YouTube
  • mUPg4ZmsUepB7ZL2GPIN0P2OdUlPsc9LOeZbrwqFHy6fg8Ux3xMAlWfnVOL5n4xKcz-jkTgmeKU=s160-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj

    YouTuber Nahoa Life
  • 2023. See fulll @URL
MacDonald's literary application and defense of Robyn Faith Walsh’s (2021) hypothesis that the Gospels are not, as is usually thought, the product of literate spokespersons conveying the oral tradition of their community, but rather are birthed out of networks of elite Greco-Roman-Jewish writers in dialogue with one another.
Jesus in the Light of Greco-Roman Philosophy and Highly Sophisticated Engagement with the Old Testament

1. Birthing Gospels: Minimally Literate People Sharing the Oral Tradition of a Community, or a Network of Elite Greco-Roman Jewish Writers?
2. Erasing the Johannine Community Hypothesis
3. A Philosophical Logos in John’s Gospel
4. John’s Eternal Life in the Here and Now and Aristotle
5. John’s Jesus and Anaximander/Aristotle: God’s in his Heaven and All’s Right with the World and Logos
6. Inventing Gospel History with Greco-Roman Literary Practices and the Gospel of John
7. Jesus as Philosopher in Mark
8. Sophisticated Old/New Testament Interaction Beyond Substitutionary Atonement

--MacDonald, John (17 May 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part A". Internet Infidels.
The Gospels and the Prayer of Socrates Thanking Asclepius

1. The Soldier Cipher
2. Gethsemane
3. Moral Influence and the Greeks
4. Walsh, the Satyrica, and the Gospels as Dystopian Satire
5. The Hypothetical Q Source: A Pathway to History or Generic Sayings and Allusions?

--MacDonald (17 June 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part B ". Internet Infidels.
Good Form (Morphe); or, Aristotle in Paul’s Sources

1. The Philippian Christ Hymn that Paul Quotes
2. The Nature of Faith (Pistis)
2.1 The Inner Conflict
3. Two Key Interpretations of the Cross in Paul
4. Approaching the Literary Form of Gospel
5. The Incarnation of Jesus (or Jesus as the Law Personified/Incarnate)
6. The Difference between Jesus and Paul
6.1 Similarities
6.2 Key Differences at the Core of the Messages of Jesus (J) and Paul (P)
7. Paul’s Conversion (9:1-21)
8. Returning to the Philippian Christ Hymn
9. The Gospels as Bios: Subversive Biographies and the Shadow of Socrates
10. Conclusion

--MacDonald, John (3 August 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part C". Internet Infidels.



Disagreements

I pretty much endorse everything Walsh says and argues in this volume. It’s well-said, well-demonstrated, and correct. There are but a few exceptions, and they don’t affect her thesis.

Walsh does not make it a centerpiece of her thesis, but a few times she does suggest that the Gospels might not have even been authored by Christians, but just the literary exercises of playful auteurs (e.g. pp. 28, 35, 111, 133). She doesn’t insist on this; she merely says that if you wish to maintain these authors were Christians, and advocating a position (perhaps even a position they believe their “community” shares or that they want it to share), you need to present evidence for that, not just presume it. Which is fair enough. One should be able to present evidence to believe that.

I am certain we have. The Gospels’ designs are thoroughly propagandistic and thus only make sense coming from an interested party intent on controlling or advising the behaviors and doctrines of the faithful. And their knowledge of Christian theology, organizing principles, and the Jewish scriptures and apocrypha undergirding it all, does not seem likely to be the product of idle pastime. Mark builds his entire story to sell the Christian mission out of the Epistles of Paul, for example (a point with which Walsh concurs: Origins, p. 132; indeed her list of examples I have added to my article); his comparable employment of the Septuagint indicates more than mere literary interest in the material; and his pervasive argument justifying Paul’s mission to the Gentiles through an extended tale of Jesus himself foreshadowing it evinces a specific sectarian goal. Matthew, in turn, is quite intent to defend the Torah-observant Christian faction against Mark’s design; and Luke, to unify and harmonize those warring factions; and John, to blow up the whole affair with wholesale religious reform. These are obviously concerned missionaries; not idle auteurs.

Another disagreement I have is with Walsh’s push to argue that the Satyricon was written in the second century to parody the Christian Gospels, rather than being written before the Gospels to parody religious adventure novels generally (as most scholars I think would still maintain). G.W. Bowersock sets the context well enough in Fiction as History: Nero to Julian (University of California Press 1995). If there were already trained dogs acting out mock deaths and resurrections in comedy stage plays in the time of Vespasian (Plutarch, “On the Cleverness of Animals,” Moralia 973e-974a), we clearly have a genre so commonly recognized it was already regularly being made fun of, far too soon for “the Gospels” to be inspiring it.

I think Walsh might not be aware, for example, that the novel Callirhoe, which seems one of the likely targets of the Satyricon’s parody (Origins, p. 152), most definitely predates the Gospels (it is mentioned as an already-popular work of pulp fiction in a poem of Persius; and Suetonius reports in his Lives of the Poets that he died in 62 A.D.). We even have a papyrus that appears to contain a Greek predecessor to our Latin of the Satyricon, suggesting an even older provenance than even theories of Petronian authorship would suggest (P. Parsons, “A Greek Satyricon?” Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies 1971). So our Satyricon could even be a second century redaction of an earlier work. But either way, as Walsh admits, these motifs were all over religious adventure novels of the time, both before and after Christianity began (and not only in novels: “empty tombs and the resurrected dead were particularly popular conventions of paradoxography, a genre that experienced a resurgence in the first and second centuries,” Origins, p. 149); and this is based on the examples that survive. There will no doubt have been others. So we needn’t appeal to the Gospels as the Satyricon’s referent, no matter what its date.

Walsh does not commit to this thesis either (she admits there are other ways to read the data, e.g., Origins, pp. 16-17). But she seems personally convinced. I am not as persuaded. The parallels she surveys in Chapter 4 are indeed remarkable, but they are too random; they lack sufficient specificity or interpretability to connect to any of the Gospels. Mimesis served to comment on (or in parody, to make fun of) the target of emulation, to mock or honor or transvalue it; and there just isn’t any of that here. Brodie and MacDonald developed mimesis criteria for a reason. Walsh’s findings score too poorly against them for this to qualify as a case of it, in either direction (for a contrasting example see my discussion in Proving History, pp. 192-204). I don’t think the Satyricon knew the Gospels; nor the Gospels, the Satyricon. But that does leave only one alternative: these motifs were so widespread in satires and novels of the time that the authors of the Gospels were most definitely riffing on the trend. And we would indeed have a better understanding of their authors’ intentions and designs if we had access to the exemplars they were transvaluing. I just think we don’t. Whatever work, say, Mark was lifting from and commenting on has simply been lost. We only see echoes of it in the Satyricon’s general parody of the whole genre.

Lastly, a minor point: Walsh says “cannibalism … as a specific theme in invective against Christians” appears in Tacitus and Pliny (p. 145). In fact neither author mentions this. Pliny says the Christians claimed their meals were “ordinary and innocent” but does not specify what else he might have thought them to be. Tacitus never mentions meals at all. The idea of Christians specifically being accused of cannibalism exists only in Christian apologetics; we actually have no early pagan source ever accusing them of such a thing. I suspect Christian apologists often fabricated accusations made against them. For example, no pagan author ever accused the Christians of atheism, but rather the opposite: superstition, an excessive or irrational fear of the gods. That no Christian apologetics ever responds to this, the actual accusation we find in pagan sources, but instead converts the accusation into “atheism,” to create an easy straw man to rebut, demonstrates Christian mendacity (see Not the Impossible Faith, pp. 156-57). We should thus doubt the cannibalism accusation was ever real as well.

On a couple of other points I can give her an assist. Walsh apologizes for relying on Bart Ehrman’s pop-market work Forged, evidently unaware of the publication of his later thorough and excellent peer-reviewed monograph on the subject, Forgery and Counter-Forgery (Oxford University Press 2012). I recommend readers update her footnote accordingly (Origins, p. 157 n. 80), as it removes any need for her comments in defense of his thesis. It is now an established conclusion in the academic literature. In another instance, Walsh discusses a common feature of subversive heroes in ancient fiction: their physical unattractiveness (particularly noted of Socrates and Aesop; even in the Alexander Romance, Alexander the Great is portrayed as disarmingly short, in ways echoing the same trope). She notes this is not found in the Gospels but the same trope is carried there with other features, such as Jesus’s low social status and associations (Origins, p. 192). She evidently isn’t aware that Christian tradition did in fact attribute physical ugliness to Jesus, exactly on trope (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 88; Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ 9; Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor 3.1; Origen, Against Celsus 6.75; and indeed with “scriptural” support: Isaiah 52:14 and 53:2-3).

--Carrier (January 9, 2023). "Robyn Faith Walsh and the Gospels as Literature". Richard Carrier Blogs.
 
Just to inject a voice of reason: As I've mentioned before, an historic Jesus of Nazareth almost certainly DID exist. Competent objective historians are almost unanimous in accepting this.

Perhaps the simplest and clearest fact supporting historicity is Jesus' brother James. Mythical men do not have flesh-and-bones brothers.

It might be amusing to see how mythicists cope with the well-documented James the Just. How many of you go with Richard Carrier's solution, that James was the brother of Jesus ben Damneus, mentioned much later in the relevant Josephus paragraph?
 
[A]n historic Jesus of Nazareth almost certainly DID exist.
  • Which is irrelevant to a god Jesus (a divine christ, the וידבר [vayidaber] Michael angel) existing prior!
Background Elements to Christianity
  • Element 1 The earliest form of Christianity definitely known to us originated as a Jewish sect in the region of Syria-Palestine in the early first century CE. (pp. 65-6)
  • Element 2 When Christianity began Judaism was highly sectarian and diverse. (p. 66)
  • Element 3 (a) When Christianity began, many Jews had long been expecting a messiah: a divinely chosen leader or saviour anointed … to help usher in God’s supernatural kingdom, usually (but not always) by subjugating or destroying the enemies of the Jews and establishing an eternal paradise.
    (b) If these enemies were spiritual powers, the messianic victory would have been spiritual; or both, as in the Enochic literature.
    (c) Jewish messianic expectations were widespread, influential and very diverse. (pp. 66-7)
  • Element 4 (a) Palestine in the early first century CE was experiencing a rash of messianism. There was an evident clamoring of sects and individuals to announce they had found the messiah.
    (b) Christianity’s emergence at this time was therefore no accident. It was part of the zeitgeist.
    (c) Christianity’s long-term success may have been simply a product of natural selection. (pp. 67-73)
  • Element 5 Even before Christianity arose some Jews expected one of their messiahs heralding the end-times would be killed before the final victory. (pp. 73-81)
  • Element 6 The suffering-and-dying servant of Isaiah 52-53 and the messiah of Daniel 9 have numerous logical connections with the “Jesus/Joshua Rising” figure in Zechariah 3 and 6. (pp. 81-83)
  • Element 7 (a) The pre-Christian book of Daniel was a key messianic text, laying out what would happen and when, partly inspiring much of the messianic fervour of the age.
    (b) The text was widely known and widely influential, widely regarded as scripture by early Christians. (pp. 83-87)
  • Element 8 (a) Many messianic Jewish sects were searching the (Hebrew and Greek) scriptures for secret messages.
    (b) It follows that the Jews who became the first Christians had been searching the scriptures this way this long before they became Christians. (pp. 87-88)
  • Element 9 The early first century concept of scriptures embraced not only writings that became canonized but many more works, many of which no longer exist; further, of those that do still exist, including canonical texts, the early first century versions were sometimes quite different in details. Texts in places were been modified, changed, before their canonical versions were finally settled. (p. 88-92)
  • Element 10 Christianity began as a Jewish messianic cult preaching a spiritually victorious messiah. (pp. 92-96)

"On the Historicity of Jesus". RationalWiki. Retrieved 31 August 2023.




YouTuber "Godless Engineer" (John Gleason) highlights at time 36:30, Davis' attempted example of "Carrier's incompetence" in mishandling a citation of Martin Abegg.
YouTuber "Godless Engineer" (John Gleason) questions Boyarin.
 
[A]n historic Jesus of Nazareth almost certainly DID exist.
[snipped]
I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here? What do they say about Brother James?

By the way, I recently learned that the influence of Paul on the very early (pre-70) Christian church is greatly exaggerated. Quoting one of the best books on 1st-century Christianity:
The anger and bitterness that Paul feels toward ... "servants of Satan" [like James] ... seeps like poison through the pages of his later epistiles. ... But the allegiance [of Hellenistic Diaspora Jews to the Jerusalem church] ... did not waver.

The enmity between Paul and the Jerusalem Christians led by James was HUGE. It was only AFTER the Fall of Jerusalem that Pauline doctrine came to the forefront. This has direct effect on some of the mythicization scenarios.
 
I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here?
HJers remind me of the following movie quote..
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Are you going to take off your uniform?
- Pvt. Butz: Not only shall I remove it, I intend to burn it.
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Yeah, that's what we thought. We don't like that. You see, we like our Nazis in uniform. That way you can spot 'em just like that. But you take off that uniform, ain't no one ever gonna know you were a Nazi.
—"Inglourious Basterds". Universal Pictures. 2009.
@1Heidegger1! opened with..
I just went back to the Wikipedia page on the Christ myth theory, which I haven't looked at in years, to find it is basically being portrayed as analogous to Young Earth Creationism

So how does 1Heidegger1 relate to why it is relevant that a god Jesus (a divine christ, the וידבר [vayidaber] Michael angel) existed prior?

The Idea That Some Jews Were Already Expecting a Dying Messiah

In Element 5 of Chapter 4 of my study On the Historicity of Jesus I summarized existing scholarship concluding that there was a lot of evidence for the possibility, if not indeed the probability, that some Jewish sects already were expecting a dying messiah, and that this was already a component of their eschatological timetable. I even point out elsewhere in that book that this apocalyptic expectation, claimed to have been found hidden in scripture, might have inspired actual messianic pretenders to try and make that happen, which could also explain a historical Jesus (pp. 68–72, 245–46; for a humorous yet still serious outline of this theory, see my Wichita Talk, You’re All Gonna Die!! How the Jews Kept Failing to Predict Doomsday and Caused Christianity Instead). But this also wipes out a common defense of historicity: the argument that no Jews would ever have thought of such a thing—without actually suffering the unexpected death of their (thereby necessarily historical) messiah.

That argument is refuted of course by that fact that, actually, that had already happened: Daniel 9:26 assigns the death of the “messiah” Onias III as a key sign of the apocalypse. So coming up with such a notion by exactly that kind of historical motivation already predates Christianity by almost two centuries. But since the end didn’t come as the book of Daniel originally intended, many sects (as we already see happening at Qumran) started feverishly trying to reinterpret that “dying messiah” prophecy as somehow in their future. This is all we need to explain how someone could then invent a suitable new candidate to mark the end of the world. A real guy was no longer needed for that. An imaginary one would do. That is, after all, the easiest way to fulfill a prophecy.

But it’s only the worse that, in fact, there is no evidence for this alleged universal “opposition” among Jews to such a prophetic timetable anyway, and actually quite a lot of converging circumstantial evidence for the opposite: that some Jews were ginning up messianic readings of Isaiah’s Suffering Servant prophecy (Is. 52–53) into just such an expectation, and scouring scriptures to learn more about it. Later, Talmudic Jews simply adopted the idea as a matter of course—we find no opposition at all in the Talmud to the idea of a suffering or dying messiah. And the clues that survive, from Jewish Medieval and Talmudic exegesis all the way back to ancient scriptures, apocrypha, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, all triangulate toward this being much earlier than later. Certainly, there is no evidence it was only invented late; whereas there is some evidence it was invented early. And at the very least, even if you aren’t sure of that, the evidence is sufficient to establish this could have happened, and thus is a plausible pathway to the invention of Christianity. Either way, the attempt to argue this is impossible fails.

Against this it is said no one with “real” expertise believes this, and that I have interpreted all the evidence incompetently, and the consensus is overwhelmingly against me. In actual fact, what I argued is argued by well over a dozen experts now, many of unimpeachable competence and qualifications, all under peer review. And many more concur as to its plausibility, just as I affirmed. There is in fact no argument I made that hasn’t passed peer review multiple times, in studies completed by some of the most prominent experts in Hebrew, Talmud, Second Temple Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But since the litany of internet trolls reject evidence, spit on peer review, and lean instead on the apologetic tactic of cherry-picking the obsolete opinions of scholars who only conclude the way they want (but who never actually rebut, rarely even at all much less effectively, scholars arguing the other side), and insist, rather, on “arguments from prestige” whereby only scholars of suitable social status count, and only some never-admitted “number” of them have to say this before being believed, let’s survey the actual status of this question in the field today—mustering all the prestige you could want. Because in actual reality, my conclusion in Element 5, and indeed even my use of evidence to that conclusion, is not fringe but mainstream. And to make very clear that anyone who tells you otherwise is lying, I have no choice but to bombard you with examples until you relent. So here goes…

David Mitchell has a PhD in Hebrew Bible from New College, Edinburgh. His book Messiah ben Joseph (Campbell 2016) has received wide praise among highly qualified peers, including: Robert Gordon, a retired professor of Hebrew at Cambridge; Alan Avery-Peck, professor of Judaic studies at Holy Cross and editor of the Review of Rabbinic Judaism; Mart-Jan Paul, professor of Old Testament at ETF Leuven; Michael Heiser, a PhD in Hebrew and Semitic Studies who has held multiple appointments and professorships in the field; even Evangelical scholars L. Michael Morales, a professor of Biblical Studies at a seminary, with a PhD in Old Testament from Trinity College, UK, and Michael L. Brown, who has held professorships at numerous seminaries and holds a PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literature from NYU; and, above all, famed Judaic scholar Lester Grabbe, who says of Mitchell’s study that “Mitchell has now devoted a monograph to the subject” of the “Messiah ben Joseph,” that the corresponding “concept of the dying and salvific Messiah is an important belief in the rabbinic period,” and that Mitchell’s “collection of material is very thorough.”

Mitchell argues, as I do in OHJ, that the modern belief that this messianic concept derived later (such as from the disappointing experience of Bar Kochba) is based on no evidence at all (just conjecture), whereas, actually, the preponderance of evidence indicates the idea long predates that event. He deploys a triangulation of converging evidence to that conclusion, just as I did. And all those other professors of Jewish studies concur that Mitchell adequately proves this plausible or even probable from the Talmudic references I myself cited (such as b.Sukkah 52 and b.Sanhedrin 98), and from the Dead Sea Scrolls and their (and others’) use and interpretations of Isaiah 53; he even agrees with my reading of 11QMelchizedek (“This may not be the only Qumran text to feature a dying messianic figure”; cf. Messiah, pp. 100–01). Some of these conclusions were previously published under peer review as well in David Mitchell, “Rabbi Dosa and the Rabbis Differ: Messiah ben Joseph in the Babylonian Talmud,” The Review of Rabbinic Judaism (2005), pp. 77–90 (vide 89–90), particularly his arguments for an early dating of the material that ended up later in the Talmud.

Mitchell’s blog is full of summaries of his case, with a detailed understanding of the Hebrew. In no way is his treatment of this material incompetent. Yet it reaches the same conclusions I did, with the same evidence and more. I was only repeating the conclusions of other scholars reaching the same conclusions (I never made any argument from the Hebrew of any text myself, for example). But a survey of the literature shows that I (in OHJ, pp. 73–81) and Mitchell (supra) are not outliers. As you’ll see shortly, the view that pre-Christian Jews could already have been expecting (or indeed were expecting) a dying messiah to presage the end of the world is now widely shared across the expert literature. Nearly twenty experts now concede it—and all doing so under peer review or with the agreement of peer-reviewed experts, including many notable specialists in early Judaism, Hebrew, the Talmud, or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

For example, just this month I cited leading scroll experts who’ve reached the same conclusion. Timothy Lim, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Second Temple Judaism at the University of Edinburgh, a major scholar in Dead Sea Scrolls research—indeed author of one of the standard manuals on Pesharim (Sheffield 2002)—concurs with me in reading 11Q13 as referring to a dying messiah who would presage the end of the world. And Geza Vermes (pron. “Vèrmesh”), another renowned scrolls specialist, even commissioned Lim to add an appendix to his published comments from “The Oxford Forum for Qumran Research Seminar on the Rule of War from Cave 4 (4Q285)” in the Journal of Jewish Studies (vol. 43, 1992, pp. 90–92), entitled “11QMelch, Luke 4 and the Dying Messiah.” Which entails Vermes himself endorses Lim’s contribution to his own article. Vermes here agrees as well with my point (and Mitchell’s), discussed earlier this month, about the dying Messiah ben Joseph in the Talmud; which is also the conclusion of David Mitchell as just discussed. [See comment for a side-note here]

In this appendix to Vermes, Lim says “the herald of Isa. 52:7 is identified with ‘the anointed of the spirit’ in “reference to Dan. 9:25” in 11Q13. Lim then links this to Daniel 9:26 exactly as I did—because the author of 11Q13 says this is the one “about whom Daniel spoke,” and thus is not merely extracting one line, but referencing the entirety of what Daniel says about this person, and relating this to his own time or later. And hence, Lim concludes, “what 11QMelch does is to link the dying prince/messiah of Dan. 9 to the herald of Isa. 52:7.” He concedes this is debatable (as I do), and lists reasons for its uncertainty, but he affirms, nevertheless, that “what is unassailable is that in Dan. 9:25ff. there is a figure who is described as ‘an anointed one’ and ‘a priest’, whose appearance is connected with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and who after sixty-two weeks of years is cut off or killed (cf. Dan. 11:22),” thus heralding the final years of the apocalypse. Mitchell cites this very discussion by Lim in concurrence with this same conclusion about 11Q13. And no one can accuse Lim and Vermesh and Mitchell of all being incompetent, of “not knowing the Hebrew,” or not understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls.

In Second Temple Judaism more generally, Martin Hengel, a professor of New Testament Studies at the Universities of Erlanger and Tübingen, which latter had previously awarded him the PhD in Judaic studies, wrote with the assistance of Daniel P. Bailey, a PhD in New Testament studies from the University of Cambridge, “The Effective History of Isaiah 53 in the Pre-Christian Period,” in The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 in Jewish and Christian Sources, eds. Bernd Janowski & Peter Stuhlmacher (Eerdmans, 2004). Hengel and Bailey argue there that “the demonstrated uses and echoes” of Isaiah 52–53 in early Judaism “are enough to suggest that traditions of suffering and atoning eschatological messianic figures were current in Palestinian Judaism, and that Jesus and the earliest Church could have known and appealed to them,” indeed “this would explain” how that “would be comprehensible to their Jewish contemporaries” (p. 75; cf. p. 146), precisely as I argued in OHJ.

These teachings could also have included “a Messiah ben Joseph or Messiah from Ephraim who ultimately dies” (pp. 77, 139), just as I argued. He and I even put it the same way: that “might” post date one or the other Jewish War, but “it could also be significantly older” (Mitchell, in his book and “Rabbi Dosa and the Rabbis Differ,” makes a strong case that in fact it was). But more assuredly, Hengel finds interconnections between Isaiah 53 and Wisdom 2 and 5, as I did (pp. 101, 130). He notes both are pre-Christian texts depicting a heroic “chosen one” dying but being exalted and effecting (in some way) God’s ultimate messianic plans. He also agrees with me that Daniel 9 already sets up a model for a dying messiah (p. 137), just as I argued. And he locates a wide range of other evidence for early Jewish thinking along these lines (pp. 75-146). His conclusion is even worded the same way as mine (in case you were wondering where my disjunctive reasoning came from), with emphasis now added so you don’t miss the point he is actually making (as was I):

The expectation of an eschatological suffering savior figure connected with Isaiah 53 cannot therefore be proven to exist with absolute certainty and in a clearly outlined form in pre-Christian Judaism. Nevertheless, a lot of indices that must be taken seriously in texts of very different provenance suggest that these types of expectations could also have existed at the margins, next to many others. This would then explain how a suffering or dying Messiah surfaces in various forms with the Tannaim of the second century C.E., and why Isaiah 53 is clearly interpreted messianically in the Targum and rabbinic texts.
1722962653792.png
  • 1722962586495.png
  • 1722962394105.png
  • 1722962348649.png
  • 1722962199704.png
All of which led to…
That’s now Mitchell, Lim, Hengel, Boyarin, Brooke, Carrier, Boccaccini, Goldingay, Lataster, Angel, Portier-Young, Bergsma, Johnson, Knohl, Wise, Martinez, Puech, Rosenberg, Chilton, Beckwith, Starcky, Brownlee, Ginsberg, Kim, Ulrich, and Staples all affirming my Element 5—that some pre-Christian Jews had already come up with a dying-messiah expectation—and concurring that this conclusion is at least plausible (or even probable) includes now Page, Gordon, Avery-Peck, Paul, Heiser, Morales, Brown, Bailey, Grabbe, and Vermesh. Besides myself, that’s thirty five scholars now siding with my Element 5 being correct, nearly all of them substantial experts in Hebrew Studies generally or the Dead Sea Scrolls specifically. Indeed, this conclusion has now passed peer review in our field over twenty times.

So, contrary to gainsaying assertions, this supposedly “controversial” conclusion of mine is actually now mainstream and accepted as credible or even true by a large number of fully qualified experts. Indeed, many of these experts in Hebrew studies are more assertive than me: they conclude that it is the case that some pre-Christian Jews expected a dying messiah (a conclusion I also lean toward, but do not require). And as all the righteous would be resurrected in these messianic systems, this had to indeed be as well a resurrected messiah—which would then be why the earliest Christians were preaching the resurrection of Jesus as the beginning of the general resurrection of all. And yet in Element 5, though I reference rising messiahs, I only argued for the dying messiah component. And I only settled on arguing for its possibility, not just its actuality. But the number of scholars agreeing it’s not just possible but actual is no longer trivial. Which in turn only reinforces my conclusion of its plausibility—as do the dozens of scholars concurring that it is, indeed, plausible.

--Carrier (30 August 2023). "Some Controversial Ideas That Now Have Wide Scholarly Support". Richard Carrier Blogs.

Cf.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom