The Christ Myth Theory

[Swammerdami]

I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here?

HJers remind me of the following movie quote..

- Lt. Aldo Raine: Are you going to take off your uniform?
- Pvt. Butz: Not only shall I remove it, I intend to burn it.
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Yeah, that's what we thought. We don't like that. You see, we like our Nazis in uniform. That way you can spot 'em just like that. But you take off that uniform, ain't no one ever gonna know you were a Nazi.

[snipped]

Speaking only for myself, I do not read your long posts, which often appear to be a collection of Footnotes, without any reference to what they are footnotes FOR! Much better would be for you to start with one or two clear paragraphs(s) written in your own words to summarize what in He** your point even is!

In the unlikely event you choose to offer a Mythicist opinion of Brother James, Please put it in Bold and Red or I won't see it.

 

[dbz]

This is the final video in my short series examining Richard Carrier's handling and understanding of early Jewish literature in his book, "On the Historicity of Jesus," which he uses to ground his "Minimal Jesus Myth" theory. In this video I show how Carrier struggles to read the book of Zechariah, and makes vacuous, inaccurate points about the Aramaic so-called "Son of God" text, 4Q246.

---

--"Abject Failure in Reading Judaica: Reviewing Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus", Part 3". Kipp Davis. Aug 22, 2023.

In this livestream, Dr. Richard Carrier and I step through Kipp Davis' final video response to a single chapter on background knowledge from On The Historicity of Jesus. In this response we will be covering Kipps mistakes in understanding Element 6 and his reading of Zechariah. Kipp also forgoes analyzing Philo and simply disregards what Philo even says about Zechariah.

---

--"Carrier Vs Davis: Zechariah Interrupted". YouTube. Godless Engineer. 1 September 2023.

 

[Swammerdami]

@dbz -- Following is a case in point. A cryptic excerpt from your recent post.

Have you ever written a significant piece of prose, whether for work or as a student? I assume you are familiar with the concept of clear paragraphs. And yet, in all the many thousands of text lines you've posted here, I've NEVER seen a clear paragraph posted by you in your own words. Instead we get "clever" cryptic "end-notes" like in the following excerpt.

Will you please explain this to us? Below we see a "humorous"(?) excerpt from a movie-script. Does it have meaning or relevance? I did guess that "HJers" refers to people who accept that at least a "minimal" Jesus of Nazareth was Historical -- a flesh-and-bones man was baptized, preached, crucified and, for whatever reason, inspired a cult which grew in size. Did I guess at least that much right?

I think you owe it to me to offer a CLEAR paragraph, in your own words -- no "parables", no cutesy cryptic clues, no quotes by others, just your own words -- explaining what your post meant. Can you do it?

I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here?

HJers remind me of the following movie quote..

- Lt. Aldo Raine: Are you going to take off your uniform?
- Pvt. Butz: Not only shall I remove it, I intend to burn it.
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Yeah, that's what we thought. We don't like that. You see, we like our Nazis in uniform. That way you can spot 'em just like that. But you take off that uniform, ain't no one ever gonna know you were a Nazi.

[snipped]

In the context of this thread what does this (witty?) movie script mean? @dbz -- will you tell us? Pretty please?

 

[Janice Rael]

I have $10 on "collection of quotes and/or footnotes without context"!

 

[dbz]

I find it fringe, and yet plausible.

I think Carrier makes a compelling argument that there is definitely influence here from Pagan Dying/Rising God mythology (see his post https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890 ).

""Much of the Gospels is Likely Invented" - Dr. Robyn Faith Walsh". YouTube

• 2023. See fulll @URL

MacDonald's literary application and defense of Robyn Faith Walsh’s (2021) hypothesis that the Gospels are not, as is usually thought, the product of literate spokespersons conveying the oral tradition of their community, but rather are birthed out of networks of elite Greco-Roman-Jewish writers in dialogue with one another.

Jesus in the Light of Greco-Roman Philosophy and Highly Sophisticated Engagement with the Old Testament
--MacDonald, John (17 May 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part A". Internet Infidels.

The Gospels and the Prayer of Socrates Thanking Asclepius
--MacDonald (17 June 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part B ". Internet Infidels.

Good Form (Morphe); or, Aristotle in Paul’s Sources
--MacDonald, John (3 August 2024). "Gospels, Classics, and the Erasure of the Community: A Critical Review Testing the Hypothesis of Robyn Faith Walsh's The Origins of Early Christian Literature, Part C". Internet Infidels.

"I think Carrier makes a compelling argument that there is definitely influence here from Pagan Dying/Rising God [Mytheme]"
&
“[T]he oft-repeated dictum that there is no evidence for the concept of a suffering and dying ‘anointed one’ or of a messianic interpretation of the Suffering Servant in pre-Christian Judaism is therefore mistaken”
=
A god Jesus who is a divine christ existing prior to 50 CE in pre-Christian Judaism.

 

[steve_bank]

I have to go with Big Foot. Multiple independent reports of sightings going far back in our histor

If you get rid of the supernatural. an HJ would have been doomed from the start.

The temple was big business of the day, a corporation we might say today. Or a corporate Christian megachurch. Money being made serving pilgrims. Support business like supplying sacrificial animals.

Jesus walked into the temple ranting and overturning tables calling out the commercialization of the temple

Jesus walked around calling the elite hypocrites.

A Muslim doing that today in Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan would not last very long.

 

[Janice Rael]

I win $10 and we spotted a Sasquatch!

 

[Swammerdami]

I see that @dbz has posted again. And he began the long post with an actual, albeit short, paragraph written in his own words! Kudos to dbz!

But this still leaves my question unanswered. @ANYONE -- if dbz can't or won't explain the connection of his cryptic quote to "HJers", will someone (anyone) else following the discussion please help him out?

I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here?

HJers remind me of the following movie quote..

- Lt. Aldo Raine: Are you going to take off your uniform?
- Pvt. Butz: Not only shall I remove it, I intend to burn it.
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Yeah, that's what we thought. We don't like that. You see, we like our Nazis in uniform. That way you can spot 'em just like that. But you take off that uniform, ain't no one ever gonna know you were a Nazi.

—"Inglourious Basterds". Universal Pictures. 2009.

I think "HJers" refers to the 99% of competent historians who think a flesh-and-blood Jesus from Galilee was crucified about 30 AD and, for whatever reason, inspired religious cult(s).

BUT please explain the pertinence of the excerpt from a movie script. Please don't make me keep asking.

 

[Swammerdami]

[snipped]

It is impossible to take any "mythicist" proposal seriously if the writer is so ignorant of the documentation that he doesn't even see the Brother James as a problem, let alone offer a solution.

Mythicists, or indeed militant atheists of any ilk, remind me of the most dogmatic fundamentalist Christian! Nerdy Christians join the Flat Earth Society to show off their skill at devising hyperbolic geometry models. Nerdy atheists write essays on the difficulty flightless rheas would have had to rendezvous with Noah during the Flood!

Fundies take what their pastor preaches on faith. Mythicists put their faith in Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD. Fundies aren't content to have Jesus be a kindly preacher -- Instead he must walk on water and brunch seven days a week next to Jehovah. Mythicists aren't content to imagine a kindly preacher either -- Instead Jesus must be total hoax, with Brother James a clever ploy invented in the 3rd century with all earlier non-compliant books burned.

Just watch out when Carrier exploits your faith and leads you away. Think twice before you drink the Kool-Aid he offers you!

 

[DBT]

The myth of Jesus/Jeshua relates to the supernatural stories told about the man. As Christianity is built on the myth, the supernatural, that there may have been a man behind the myth is of interest, but it hardly matters.

 

[No Robots]

The myth of Jesus/Jeshua relates to the supernatural stories told about the man. As Christianity is built on the myth, the supernatural, that there may have been a man behind the myth is of interest, but it hardly matters.

Wrong. The religious elite and now the secular elite try to do away with the revolutionary man by concentrating on the fables about him. "The meek shall inherit the earth" is a call to arms that the elite, whether religious or secular, simply must vitiate.

 

[Swammerdami]

I suppose @dbz is a "Mythicist" though I'm really not sure. I browse through post after post after post by dbz -- this thread is rather like a one-man show! -- and find VERY few full paragraphs by dbz written in his own words.

But there hardly seem to be any other Mythicists in the thread, at least recently, so arguing for or against is like onanism.

For me the only interest remaining here is to decipher @dbz 's cryptic remark. I don't think religious expertise is relevant, And I sincerely appeal for help.

@Politesse @Lion IRC @No Robots @T.G.G. Moogly -- you've all participated in this thread within recent memory.
PLEASE help me understand the followinng analogy(?) -- if that's what it is -- by @dbz .

I'm not sure why you quote me since nothing you write is relevant to anything I wrote.

Are there "mythicists" here?

HJers remind me of the following movie quote..

- Lt. Aldo Raine: Are you going to take off your uniform?
- Pvt. Butz: Not only shall I remove it, I intend to burn it.
- Lt. Aldo Raine: Yeah, that's what we thought. We don't like that. You see, we like our Nazis in uniform. That way you can spot 'em just like that. But you take off that uniform, ain't no one ever gonna know you were a Nazi.

—"Inglourious Basterds". Universal Pictures. 2009.

I think "HJers" refers to the 99% of competent historians who think a flesh-and-blood Jesus from Galilee was crucified about 30 AD and, for whatever reason, inspired religious cult(s).

BUT please explain the pertinence of the excerpt from a movie script. Please don't make me keep asking.

 

[Politesse]

Heck if I know. Good movie, but not one I'd care to watch again.

 

[No Robots]

^Maybe he wants to carve a cross into the foreheads of all HJers.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

IMHO the quote is intended to convey the message that HJers have nothing but their clothes to distinguish them from fictionalists. HJers represent orthodoxy and tradition but the evidence they use to support their assertions reduces to claim after claim after claim with a big dose of ad populum. For me it's very similar to the Shakespeare Authorship discussion except that in that discussion there is evidence to support claims. With the gospel protagonist we have a lot of liturgical ammunition and tradition and orthodoxy same as with Shakespeare.

Being raised in a RC household I used to think that the gospel protagonist was an actual individual. That came to an end when I was attending mass around Easter (love where that word comes from ) and the celebrant became quite emotional and agitated stating that the resurrection of Christ is an "actual recorded historical event." It isn't, it's a liturgical claim, religious orthodoxy, tradition. It's as factual as Santa at the North Pole.

I spend a lot of time evaluating what I read and what I hear deciding which is claim and which is evidence. I would advise interested parties to take the same approach when discussing what HJ is.

 

[No Robots]

Mythers are typical internet gurus, reactionary ideologues pretending to be dispassionate and balanced.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Mythers are typical internet gurus, reactionary ideologues pretending to be dispassionate and balanced.

Both sides are equally guilty in this respect. All that matters in the end is what evidence is available on which to make a judgement.

 

[No Robots]

Mythers are typical internet gurus, reactionary ideologues pretending to be dispassionate and balanced.

Both sides are equally guilty in this respect. All that matters in the end is what evidence is available on which to make a judgement.

Mythers are typical internet gurus, reactionary ideologues pretending to be dispassionate and balanced.

Both sides are equally guilty in this respect. All that matters in the end is what evidence is available on which to make a judgement.

"Both sides." Yup, guru bs.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

"Both sides." Yup, guru bs.

I think you've just demonstrated my point. People don't like their orthodoxy challenged or questioned. It's an emotional thing and for some it's also a financial thing. Do you think Joseph Smith was telling the truth or inventing a story?

 

[No Robots]

"Both sides." Yup, guru bs.

I think you've just demonstrated my point. People don't like their orthodoxy challenged or questioned. It's an emotional thing and for some it's also a financial thing. Do you think Joseph Smith was telling the truth or inventing a story?

LDS on meekness. Concentrate on the message, not the fabulation that surrounds it.