As you probably know by now, I strongly disagree with your assumptions.
I strongly disagree with yours. The key is if we have good reason for our assumptions and/or conclusions.
In fact I think it's irrational to believe that most people are very influenced by their religious beliefs in the ways that you suggest they are.
Why? The beliefs we hold inside our brains are very interconnected with each other. For instance, what a person believes about the afterlife can impact how they behave in this life. It will not be the one and only deciding factor, but it is a contributing factor along with many others. Other beliefs they hold may influence them in other ways as well. That is the key point to understand. Inside our heads, our beliefs are not divorced from each other.
I've said numerous times that extremist religious views can be harmful, but most people don't vote based on their religious beliefs, other than White Evangelical Christians in recent years.
How do you know so? Note I am not asking you to just repeat your claim, I am asking you to provide evidence for it. I believe religious beliefs are one among many beliefs that influence how people vote. People also vote on their own economic interests, their scientific views, their ethical views, etc. But since our views are connected with each other, our religious views have some role to play in all of that too.
Also, would you agree that even though white evangelical Christians are not “most people,” they are still a very large and powerful constituency?
Why do you pick on religious beliefs in general, when there are so many other things, far more negative, that can influence others?
Religious beliefs are the very topic of this thread. It is in the thread title.
Not all atheists are morally upright people.
A trivially true and irrelevant point. I have never in my life believed or indicated otherwise. If you really thought that was a relevant statement to make, then you have a gross misunderstanding of my views. Some of your other statements corroborate that conclusion. We will get there below.
Don't you think that in some cases, a person who doesn't believe in a god, might use that as an excuse to harm others? There are some atheists who are affluent and base their vote on who will give them the bigger tax breaks, without any concern for other things. There are many religious people who vote based on who will help the poor or the average person the most. Don't you think that in some cases, a person who does believe that a god is watching over them, might use their beliefs to influence their behavior in a positive way? I certainly do think any of these things are not only possible but are likely in some situations.
Sure, to all the above.
We are all influenced by both our genetic heritage and the numerous things in the environment that we are exposed to throughout our lives.
That includes religious beliefs, since we are exposed to religious beliefs throughout our lives. To be consistent with your own statement, you would need to agree that we are indeed influenced by our religious beliefs. Yes, you would be very right on that point.
Religious beliefs can be a positive force in one's life or a negative force in one's life. Imo, you need to come to terms with that very simple fact.
Sohy, actually you need to come to terms that religious beliefs are a tad more complex than that. They cannot be completely basketed into being either “positive” or “negative” as if those were the only 2 possibilities. They can have a wide variety of effects that vary in type, degree, and over time along a wide spectrum. For instance:
They can provide a sense of community, but simultaneously they can also instill fear because of doubts they hold about the canon and things that just do not make sense to them.
A person’s religious beliefs can also harm themselves, without them being aware that they are doing so. It can lead them to joining a cult and engaging in harmful practices, which on a very superficial level they would report as bringing them joy, but on a deeper level are damaging their critical thinking skills and willingness.
They can affect a person in different ways at different points in their life. Early in their life they may have been relatively innocuous but the fact that they were present made it easier for more harmful religious beliefs to seep in over time and the rest of their life. Or vice versa, where they were harmfully indoctrinated as a child but later in life became an atheist and felt great relief.
If you think religious beliefs are either entirely “positive” or entirely “negative” then you have a very naïve misunderstanding of religious beliefs. They are much more nuanced than that.
I have no idea why you feel the way you do, but I've had decades to consider these things.
Then you have unfortunately spent decades drawing some very wrong conclusions. Anyway, I really do not care how much time you say you spent thinking about it. That offers absolutely nothing to the credibility of your position. It could be that those decades allowed your biases to be built more deeply into your brain over all this time, and you are unwilling to correct your errors on these very foundational issues that you are very mistaken on.
If you want to do something positive, be a good example of a morally upright person, and be open about your atheism when you are around religious people.
I try to do that. But it is possible to do multiple things at once. We do not have to limit ourselves to just that. We can also point out the errors and mistakes in beliefs when people espouse them. We should not grant religious beliefs any kind of exemption from criticism, just because they are religious beliefs.
Don't tell people what to believe.
Don’t tell people what to do. How about you stop that, immediately?
If you must judge at all, judge people by their character and not by the weird little myths that bring them joy, peace or a sense of belonging.
That is another naïve statement, sohy. To “judge” in this context is another way of saying to “form an opinion.” So you are effectively telling me to stop having opinions. My response? No. I absolutely make no apologies for having opinions, nor should I. It is also okay to express our opinions. We need to end this taboo we have against criticizing bad religious beliefs, just because they happen to be religious beliefs.
Atheists are the most hated group in the US, or so we are told. Don't you think we should try and raise our own image by being open and tolerant,
Tolerance for the sake of tolerance is not always good. We should not be tolerant of bad beliefs. Intolerance is not necessarily bad. We should be intolerant of harmful beliefs. What we should be tolerant or intolerant of depends on the specific circumstances, so general platitudes about “we should be tolerant” are poor tips.
You must come to terms with the fact that people, even some atheists, believe all kinds of weird shit.
I have long ago come to terms with that. I have seen you exhibit such traits unfortunately. You have an extremely superficial (mis)understanding of religion.
I doubt that either of us are going to change our positions, so I see no point in continuing this discussion with you.
I agree that you are not open to changing your position, and I do not expect you to. I am wanting to expose the flaws in the positions you espouse though, for the benefit of others who may be watching.
Also note that whenever you promote these bad beliefs, I am free to challenge them, and not needing your permission to do so.
. I don't see how that is shoving anything down anyone's throats.
