The danger of White Evangelical Christians in the US

[Tharmas]

So after reading this thread again, I'm going to have to ask for evidence for claims (I know religious people hate that!).

Tigers, can you point to where sohy was happy cramming her beliefs down someone else's throat here? Thanks in advance.

Who is sohy?

"Sohy" is a nickname or abbreviation some of us use for "southernhybrid," the originator of this thread.

 

[southernhybrid]

So after reading this thread again, I'm going to have to ask for evidence for claims (I know religious people hate that!).

Tigers, can you point to where sohy was happy cramming her beliefs down someone else's throat here? Thanks in advance.

Who is sohy?

Me!

 

[Politesse]

So after reading this thread again, I'm going to have to ask for evidence for claims (I know religious people hate that!).

Tigers, can you point to where sohy was happy cramming her beliefs down someone else's throat here? Thanks in advance.

Who is sohy?

The coolest chick on the forum, imo. So be nice.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Who is sohy?

The coolest chick on the forum, imo. So be nice.

Yeppers! This is absolutely the truth.

Ruth

 

[Keith&Co.]

So after reading this thread again, I'm going to have to ask for evidence for claims (I know religious people hate that!).

Tigers, can you point to where sohy was happy cramming her beliefs down someone else's throat here? Thanks in advance.

Who is sohy?

Me!

Only took me a month to figure that one out, and I'm an idiot. I kept looking up internet acronyms...

 

[ideologyhunter]

God. I could be shortened to ideot.

 

[Politesse]

At SC they used to abbreviate me as "Poli", and I am so glad that doesn't often happen anymore, haha. I mean, if one must shorten, why not the much more real-sounding and already-existing "Tess"? This I always wondered.

 

[southernhybrid]

At SC they used to abbreviate me as "Poli", and I am so glad that doesn't often happen anymore, haha. I mean, if one must shorten, why not the much more real-sounding and already-existing "Tess"? This I always wondered.

So, can we call you Tess now?

I will explain how I ended up being Sohy. Many years ago, when IIDB was very active and full of fun, some posters started to refer to me as Sohy, a nickname for southernhybrid. I liked the shortened version so much, that when Secular Cafe started, I used the name Sohy for my screen name. I even use it on some newspaper comment sections. So I should probably change my screen name to Sohy, since it's a lot easier to type compared to southernhybrid.

So, Tigers, did you have anything to add to the discussion?

 

[funinspace]

It is interesting that the evangelical church does not have the moral strength to cast out the “bad seeds”. You’d think a body that had the power of a god and a saviour behind it would be able to convince its own members to not be utter assholes.

Others have already pointed out that 'the evangelical church' is not monolithic; and if anything evangelicals are more diverse/independent than most labeled segments.

I have in-laws that are part of a big evangelical community church in the SW, and I'm sure most of them support Clownstick. I know my in-laws do. They have nationalism and guns heavily mixed up with their version of Christianity. They actually have purposely armed members of their church for 'safety', as they seem to live in fear of all sorts of boogiemen from immigrant Latinos, to Arabs/Muslims, and to crime. Comparatively, the local area mainstream UMC and ELCA churches aren't armed.

The US has long had a strain of American dominion, but this strain has certainly gotten worse in recent decades. Most denominations/sects supported the US government in the Vietnam war, so things have also change for other sects in modern times.

 

[southernhybrid]

Conservative columnist David Brooks had a recent piece on this issue.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/trump-evangelicals.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

After a week of Trumpist mayhem, white evangelicals wrestle with what they’ve become.

“Over the last 72 hours, I have received multiple death threats and thousands upon thousands of emails from Christians saying the nastiest and most vulgar things I have ever heard toward my family and ministry. I have been labeled a coward, sellout, a traitor to the Holy Spirit, and cussed out at least 500 times.”

This is the beginning of a Facebook post from Sunday by the conservative preacher Jeremiah Johnson. On Jan. 7, the day after the storming of the Capitol, Johnson had issued a public apology, asserting that God removed Donald Trump from office because of his pride and arrogance, and to humble those, like Johnson, who had fervently supported him.

The response was swift and vicious. As he put it in that later Facebook post, “I have been flabbergasted at the barrage of continued conspiracy theories being sent every minute our way and the pure hatred being unleashed. To my great heartache, I’m convinced parts of the prophetic/charismatic movement are far SICKER than I could have ever dreamed of.”

This is what is happening inside evangelical Christianity and within conservatism right now. As a conservative Christian friend of mine put it, there is strife within every family, within every congregation, and it may take generations to recover.

White American Evangelicals are turning on each other. Trump really has created a dangerous cult with a good percentage of White Evangelicals leading parts of it. Whatever happened to the values in the Sermon on the Mt and 1st Corinthians 13? Do these people not realize that their Jesus was closer to socialism than he was to fascism? It used to be Muslim extremists that gave us concern, but these days it's the far right cult of White Evangelical Christianity that is the most potentially dangerous threat to American institutions.

I knew when I left Evangelical Christianity around the age of 19, that it's members had no moral high ground, but I honestly never thought it would come to this. It was the self righteousness of the believers as well as the irrational beliefs that totally turned me away, leaving me to seek a more tolerant religion, long before I became an atheist. But, now it's obvious that a large percentage of these believers can only be described as wicked, to use a word that they are so fond of accusing others of being.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Wilmington 1898: When white supremacists overthrew a US government

A violent mob, whipped into a frenzy by politicians, tearing apart a town to overthrow the elected government.

I really doubt these folks were communists or socialists. Does anyone think they were Jesus idolizers?

 

[southernhybrid]

Wilmington 1898: When white supremacists overthrew a US government

A violent mob, whipped into a frenzy by politicians, tearing apart a town to overthrow the elected government.

I really doubt these folks were communists or socialists. Does anyone think they were Jesus idolizers?

Well, most likely they were the type of Christian who cherry picks the worst parts of their holy book. I've just never understood why they don't see that if they took the so called Gospels more seriously, the character of their Jesus was closer to socialism than it was to conservatism. I do wonder if they even read the better parts of their book. I really don't remember too much emphasis being placed on the things that Jesus said about giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, etc. or how difficult it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of god, when I was a child.

Considering that prosperity gospel has become so popular among the uppity class, it sort of boggles the mind how the early Christian message or what we commonly think of the early Christian message has been so distorted. Maybe that's what always happens to religious mythology. People distort it to fit into their own sense of morality and importance. What I really hated about evangelicalism, even as a child, was the idea that only those who believed a certain way would be "saved". Character didn't matter much as long as you asked forgiveness.

Besides distorting what appears to have been part of the original message of Christianity, another problem is that conservative Christians believe they are the only ones who have the right religion, the right god and the only savior. But, I'll save that for a different discussion. . Is that how those who invaded the capital in the name of Christ reconciled their terrible behavior? Or are they having a problem differentiating Jesus from Trump? It's just hard to imagine what's going on in their brains.

Again, I'm not claiming that all evangelicals are like those who invaded the capital last week, but obviously the fact that a horrid man like Trump could easily manipulate so many of them is problematic. The fact that we have so many these days who support a theocracy is very disturbing. I"m not claiming they will ever achieve this goal, but I think their Jesus wouldn't approve of that idea. There are references in the Bible that have been used to support the separation of church and state. Why have so many of these people ignored them? ( I guess that's a rhetorical question. )

 

[WAB]

Wilmington 1898: When white supremacists overthrew a US government

A violent mob, whipped into a frenzy by politicians, tearing apart a town to overthrow the elected government.

I really doubt these folks were communists or socialists. Does anyone think they were Jesus idolizers?

Moogli,

Everyone already knows that religion has been at the heart of war, conflict, megadeath, social disorder, family dysfunction, abuse, etc., etc., etc.

People like SOHY et al (including me), are simply trying to stick up for people who are religious but who are NOT completely evil, or tyrants and dictators, or just total pricks, etc., etc., etc.

And don't forget Marx & Engels, and their affect on the people who were inspired and emboldened by their works later on, and the sheer havoc, famine, megadeath, war, suffering, misery, death, pain, death, torment, suffering, more suffering, famine and war and death...[breathe...], at the hands of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc, etc, etc. And let us not forget that communism and socialism are left, not right. That communism caused horror and hell on Earth for millions upon millions of people is a fact. A horrible one. As you know, of course.

Ooooh, and let's not forget Hegel (and the Hegelians) ! Him too! It's his fault!

No wait, there was that other guy way before him!.....


etc., etc., et... |

 

[Angry Floof]

Religious believers who aren't right wing morons are actually, at best, irrelevant to solving any problems of religion, and at worst, they are complicit for reasons that have nothing to do with them personally doing harm to others but to social dynamics of the "Christian" identity. It doesn't matter that none of them support right wing nut bags or even speak out against them. The sheer numbers of the Christian identity group and its influence over society is what gives extremists power.

It's a social club and an identity group that has power over those who do not identify as Christian, regardless of how many Christians are nice and peaceful, or educated, or liberal. It has nothing to do with any god or god belief. Don't believe me? Just ask a Christian if a label is god, and they'll say "Of course not." Then ask them to help take power away from extremists by giving up their social label. Obviously, that label isn't the source of their faith or belief, but IS a source of religious power over society. Yet they won't do it. They will not do it. No Christian will every say, "I refuse to call myself a Christian" unless it's someone who is truly denouncing the belief system. No one will give up that label and NOT feel like they are giving up the faith.

That label is a powerful social dynamic, but it is worshipped as if it were God. Seems obvious when we talk about it like this, but again, just test it out. Christians worship the social power and self image that come with the label. The power of numbers and the privilege that comes with that label is really what people refuse to give up. And we have generation upon generation of indoctrination to assist us in never questioning this.

 

[WAB]

Religious believers who aren't right wing morons are actually, at best, irrelevant to solving any problems of religion, and at worst, they are complicit for reasons that have nothing to do with them personally doing harm to others but to social dynamics of the... [snip]

Ahhhh, much better.

 

[Angry Floof]

Religious believers who aren't right wing morons are actually, at best, irrelevant to solving any problems of religion, and at worst, they are complicit for reasons that have nothing to do with them personally doing harm to others but to social dynamics of the... [snip]

Ahhhh, much better.

Do you have a response to my actual comments? You are not obligated to read my posts, much less respond to them.

 

[southernhybrid]

I have a personal problem judging any group by the label that they give themselves. I have several wonderful Black Christian friends and one White Christian friend who don't judge me for being an atheist. They are good people who I value as friends. We all have labels or identities but imo, it's character that makes us who we are. As far as religion goes, it serves a lot of good purposes if it's not taken to extremes.

I mention the Black friends because a lot of what is preached in many, maybe most Black churches involves social justice concepts. These churches give people hope, community and emotional support. Sure, it's a type of social club, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think my closest White Christian friend ever goes to church, or talks about religion. She and I have many of the same values and we have fun together. Should I group her in with the harmful evangelicals just because she is some type of cultural Christian? She despises what they are doing as much as I do. If I see an atheist acting cruelly, can't I criticize him without giving up my own identity as an atheist?

I don't understand how people can believe some of the things that they do, but that goes far beyond religion. Some people believe all kinds of conspiracy theories, regardless if they are religious or not. That's more obvious these days in the US, then it's been in my life time. And, not every single person who believes weird shit is a harmful person. I'm sure we can all agree that humans aren't any more rational than any other animal on the planet. I once read in one of the many books that I've read over the years on primatology, that a species of apes or monkeys, ( don't remember exactly which ) did certain things that in many ways resembled religious rituals. So, perhaps we evolved to believe in myths and have rituals in our lives. Just speculating, but there may be some truth to that. Maybe we will eventually evolve ourselves out of religion, but considering how we are destroying our own habitat, it's probably more likely that we will evolve ourselves out of existence.

Have I digressed enough yet?

 

[Angry Floof]

My post wasn't about judging individuals. It's about the social power of the group identity label, and Christianity's social power runs deep and wide in Western history, in all Western countries and some others as well.

If you knew that you were inadvertently part of a poisonous, inhumane force across society, would you purposely choose to continue contributing to that? Most people would not, but most people also would not really understand that or care to try to understand it as long as it doesn't affect them personally, as long as their complicity doesn't hurt them in any way, and as long as their narrative survives challenges.

And it is nearly impossible to expect change in minds any time soon because any criticism is likely to be taken personally (even when it's not) and can be excused away by centuries of indoctrinated defenses and arguments.

This is a problem, and "Don't criticize us" is an irrational response and helps to continue the problems of religion. I know it's not realistic to expect everyone to suddenly understand the difference between personal and impersonal, or to go to the discomfort of questioning their own faith in order to help create a more humane and inclusive society and minimize cruelty within it at the expense of an identity they are deeply invested in. That's a massive ask, to say the least. But it's still worth talking about.

 

[Ruth Harris]

...It's about the social power of the group identity label...

Doing my part to contribute to this thread drift here….

I really don’t understand the power you are attributing to what you call “labels”, and I suspect I am far from the only person who would feel that way.

Sure, there are people out there who hear “Christian”, “Muslim”, “Jewish”, “Atheist” and immediately make a judgment call about anyone who identifies as such. But those people are far from the majority view. They may be loud and demand attention but that is typical for any minority group trying to present themselves as the majority view.

You are giving the fringe element more power than they actually have – which is what they are after. Why would anyone want to encourage someone who is not in sync with the majority in the group they supposedly are representing by demanding that all of the members of that group dis-identify themselves from that label, thus allowing the fringe element to claim "persecution"?

Ruth

 

[WAB]

...It's about the social power of the group identity label...

Doing my part to contribute to this thread drift here….

I really don’t understand the power you are attributing to what you call “labels”, and I suspect I am far from the only person who would feel that way.

Sure, there are people out there who hear “Christian”, “Muslim”, “Jewish”, “Atheist” and immediately make a judgment call about anyone who identifies as such. But those people are far from the majority view. They may be loud and demand attention but that is typical for any minority group trying to present themselves as the majority view.

You are giving the fringe element more power than they actually have – which is what they are after. Why would anyone want to encourage someone who is not in sync with the majority in the group they supposedly are representing by demanding that all of the members of that group dis-identify themselves from that label, thus allowing the fringe element to claim "persecution"?

Ruth

Seconded...