The danger of White Evangelical Christians in the US

[Worldtraveller]

That the mere suggestion that some religious beliefs are bad for society and maybe believers might have the humanity to question them triggers them...
such strong and sometimes violent reactions...
The rage and tantrums...

Good summary of the reactions of internet atheist proselytisers when you challenge their sense of secular entitlement.

Ohhh. Now, I thought you meant:
Calvin seeing to it that Michael Servetus was burned alive (1553)
Catholics slaughtering Protestants in France (1572)
Strangling and burning of 'Crypto-Jews' in New Spain (1649)
Puritans executing 'witches' in Massachusetts (1692)
And don't forget:
Genocide and genocidal rape inflicted on Bangladeshi Hindus, total victims, unknown; top estimate, 3 million (1971)
Pogrom against Sikhs in India, 8000 killed (1984)
Sunnis committing mass murder on Shia in Iraq, 'tens of thousands' dead (2104-17)
Atheism as a capital offense in 13 Muslim countries (as we speak)

from the Golden Press children's book Faiths Far and Near

Not to mention the massive deaths, suffering, poverty, etc., caused by communism, which, like it or not, is radically LEFT, not right, not to mention atheist in its core philosophy.

So, WAB is short for 'whataboutism'?

Start another thread about the dangers of left wing authoritarianism (and you'll probably find most of us agreeing with you), but enough with the tu quoque.

 

[WAB]

As you probably know by now, I strongly disagree with your assumptions. In fact I think it's irrational to believe that most people are very influenced by their religious beliefs in the ways that you suggest they are. I've said numerous times that extremist religious views can be harmful, but most people don't vote based on their religious beliefs, other than White Evangelical Christians in recent years. I thought that's what we were discussing in this thread.

WIth this statement, you are calling a lot of those religious people you seem to be defending, liars. It is trivially easy to find people justifying their voting based on their religion.

So unless you mean something else, this doesn't make sense.

I tend to take them at their word, because here's the thing: even if they are not self reflective enough to realize their actual internal justification for their voting (or other actions), the fact that so many religious people, even those who we would consider moderate (both in the political sense, and in the 'not strongly religious sense) still justify much of their behavior with their religion.

Sorry Brian, but your position makes no sense to me and no I don't think that *most* people's religious beliefs influence any of the things on your list. In fact, most American doctors are Christians, with some immigrant physicians who are Muslim or Hindu. I'm not familiar with any who base the care they give on their religious beliefs. No conservative Christian doctor is going to do abortions, but that's a specialty which they don't need to choose. No Christian doctor is going to decide what someone wants at the end of life. We have Advanced Directives and Medical Durable Power of Attorney for that, which doctors are expected to respect.

Again, while what you say is true, it is also trivially easy to find counter-examples (many of them pharmacists), but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of low level bigotry that goes on that doesn't get reported. I can counter your anecdotes with my own: There have been several times where I was hospitalized that the religious iconograhy displayed made me uncomfortable enough that was leery of claiming to be ab atheist if asked.

Religious iconography in a hospital? Seriously? In Utah? Seriously? You sure of this?

I live in Arizona, a very conservative state, and I've never seen anything remotely representative of any single religion in any of the areas of any hospital - in fact I worked at the hospital in Lake Havasu for six years. I've been in a few others in Arizona, and some in Vegas. I have never seen religious iconography dedicated to one religion anywhere in any of them. Even the non-denominational, non-specific 'chapel' in Havasu had pamphlets describing the hospital's commitment to respecting any and all faiths, with descriptions and write-ups of the major religions. There are also notices posted that any and all dietetic requirements, from any and all faiths, would be catered to by the foodservice department.

ETA: just saw your remarks to me, WT.

I will accept warnings and admonishments from staff, administrators, and owner(s), not from members.

WAB - William Anthony Baurle. I've got nothing to hide. How's about you?


ETA: Leary of admitting you were an atheist?

LOL! Haven't worked in too many hospitals, ey? I would say MOST of the staff where I worked, when I worked, were atheists. AND, it is illegal to make any person of any belief system feel unsafe, in any hospital, anywhere in the USA. LOL!!!!!!

Show

Careful, you're starting to sound like bilby.

 

[Worldtraveller]

WIth this statement, you are calling a lot of those religious people you seem to be defending, liars. It is trivially easy to find people justifying their voting based on their religion.

So unless you mean something else, this doesn't make sense.

I tend to take them at their word, because here's the thing: even if they are not self reflective enough to realize their actual internal justification for their voting (or other actions), the fact that so many religious people, even those who we would consider moderate (both in the political sense, and in the 'not strongly religious sense) still justify much of their behavior with their religion.


Again, while what you say is true, it is also trivially easy to find counter-examples (many of them pharmacists), but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of low level bigotry that goes on that doesn't get reported. I can counter your anecdotes with my own: There have been several times where I was hospitalized that the religious iconograhy displayed made me uncomfortable enough that was leery of claiming to be ab atheist if asked.

Religious iconography in a hospital? Seriously? In Utah? Seriously? You sure of this?

I live in Arizona, a very conservative state, and I've never seen anything remotely representative of any single religion in any of the areas of any hospital - in fact I worked at the hospital in Lake Havasu for six years. I've been in a few others in Arizona, and some in Vegas. I have never seen religious iconography dedicated to one religion anywhere in any of them. Even the chapel in Havasu had pamphlets describing the hospital's commitment to respecting any and all faiths, which little descriptions and write-ups of the major religions. There are also notices posted that any and all dietetic requirements, from any and all faiths, would be catered to by the foodservice department.

Yes, I'm sure.

And I didn't say it was in UT. In the past decade, I have lived in KS, WA, OR, AZ, and UT. But you're assumptions are wrong, and your implication that I'm lying (like I don't know what a fucking crucifix is?) is unwarranted.

 

[WAB]

WIth this statement, you are calling a lot of those religious people you seem to be defending, liars. It is trivially easy to find people justifying their voting based on their religion.

So unless you mean something else, this doesn't make sense.

I tend to take them at their word, because here's the thing: even if they are not self reflective enough to realize their actual internal justification for their voting (or other actions), the fact that so many religious people, even those who we would consider moderate (both in the political sense, and in the 'not strongly religious sense) still justify much of their behavior with their religion.


Again, while what you say is true, it is also trivially easy to find counter-examples (many of them pharmacists), but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of low level bigotry that goes on that doesn't get reported. I can counter your anecdotes with my own: There have been several times where I was hospitalized that the religious iconograhy displayed made me uncomfortable enough that was leery of claiming to be ab atheist if asked.

Religious iconography in a hospital? Seriously? In Utah? Seriously? You sure of this?

I live in Arizona, a very conservative state, and I've never seen anything remotely representative of any single religion in any of the areas of any hospital - in fact I worked at the hospital in Lake Havasu for six years. I've been in a few others in Arizona, and some in Vegas. I have never seen religious iconography dedicated to one religion anywhere in any of them. Even the chapel in Havasu had pamphlets describing the hospital's commitment to respecting any and all faiths, which little descriptions and write-ups of the major religions. There are also notices posted that any and all dietetic requirements, from any and all faiths, would be catered to by the foodservice department.

Yes, I'm sure.

And I didn't say it was in UT. In the past decade, I have lived in KS, WA, OR, AZ, and UT. But you're assumptions are wrong, and your implication that I'm lying (like I don't know what a fucking crucifix is?) is unwarranted.

Okay, then you should have reported the hospital. If you felt unsafe, especially. A crucifix makes you feel unsafe? You really did feel unsafe and leary to admit you were an atheist? Iff so, apologies, sincerely. But I would need a citation, or a photograph indicating ample proof that it was taken in a hospital room and was not photoshopped in order to believe it.

I know there are some redneck-y areas of the US, but I don't think it's still legal in any of them to cause a patient to feel unsafe, for any reason, without the patient having the RIGHT to change rooms at the very least, AND request different staff, different care. Or to get up and leave AMA.

 

[Ruth Harris]

Yes, I'm sure.

And I didn't say it was in UT. In the past decade, I have lived in KS, WA, OR, AZ, and UT. But you're assumptions are wrong, and your implication that I'm lying (like I don't know what a fucking crucifix is?) is unwarranted.

Okay, then you should have reported the hospital. If you felt unsafe, especially. A crucifix makes you feel unsafe? You really did feel unsafe and leary to admit you were an atheist? Iff so, apologies, sincerely. But I would need a citation, or a photograph indicating ample proof that it was taken in a hospital room and was not photoshopped in order to believe it.

I know there are some redneck-y areas of the US, but I don't think it's still legal in any of them to cause a patient to feel unsafe, for any reason, without the patient having the RIGHT to change rooms at the very least, AND request different staff, different care. Or to get up and leave AMA.

Actually, this is fairly common in Catholic hospitals. They typically have iconography in every room. So I believe Worldtraveller.

Ruth

 

[Ruth Harris]

That the mere suggestion that some religious beliefs are bad for society and maybe believers might have the humanity to question them triggers such strong and sometimes violent reactions is the height of privilege. The rage and tantrums from just telling white people to listen to black people and believe them when they tell us of their experiences in order to mitigate our own invisible privilege doesn't hold a candle to the privilege and entitlement of the religious.

And once again, all believers are being tarred with the same brush. PLEASE do not keep insinuating that all of us hold the same “privilege and entitlement” stance as the fringe elements.

I do agree that there are some religious beliefs promoted by those on the fringe that are harmful to society. BUT – the exact beliefs that are harmful are not held in common by all people. Some extremist atheists firmly believe that any religious belief is harmful. Some extremist Christians firmly believe that all atheists harm society. Neither is correct, and neither belief is held by the majority of either camp.

The vast majority of both atheists and Christians will never believe that forcing their beliefs on everyone is correct. And the vast majority of both atheists and Christians are willing to listen to the other side and question whether their current worldview is harmful to society.

I do not take “mere suggestions” as threatening. I do strongly object to being told what I believe by someone who does not know me. Any thinking individual would do the same.

Ruth

With very little cosmetic revision, this is basically how a lot of white people react to mention of systemic racism.

I admit that your response initially made me very angry, so I just abandoned conversation with you.

Maybe you are not aware that your reply made it sound like I was just making excuses for anyone who wanted to discriminate against another person for their personal faith stance. I assure you, that is not the truth in my case. I was sincerely stating that I don't think most atheists or Christians think that forcing others to follow their beliefs is a valid position.

Ruth

 

[WAB]

With very little cosmetic revision, this is basically how a lot of white people react to mention of systemic racism.

I admit that your response initially made me very angry, so I just abandoned conversation with you.

Maybe you are not aware that your reply made it sound like I was just making excuses for anyone who wanted to discriminate against another person for their personal faith stance. I assure you, that is not the truth in my case. I was sincerely stating that I don't think most atheists or Christians think that forcing others to follow their beliefs is a valid position.

Ruth

That's how I took Floof's post, too. Sorry, Floof if that was not how you intended it to sound. You probably didn't, and your remark was just unclear.

 

[WAB]

Yes, I'm sure.

And I didn't say it was in UT. In the past decade, I have lived in KS, WA, OR, AZ, and UT. But you're assumptions are wrong, and your implication that I'm lying (like I don't know what a fucking crucifix is?) is unwarranted.

Okay, then you should have reported the hospital. If you felt unsafe, especially. A crucifix makes you feel unsafe? You really did feel unsafe and leary to admit you were an atheist? Iff so, apologies, sincerely. But I would need a citation, or a photograph indicating ample proof that it was taken in a hospital room and was not photoshopped in order to believe it.

I know there are some redneck-y areas of the US, but I don't think it's still legal in any of them to cause a patient to feel unsafe, for any reason, without the patient having the RIGHT to change rooms at the very least, AND request different staff, different care. Or to get up and leave AMA.

Actually, this is fairly common in Catholic hospitals. They typically have iconography in every room. So I believe Worldtraveller.

Ruth

Ah, well that explains it. I have never been in a Catholic hospital. Would not go to one willingly, unless my very life depended on it.

Apologies, WT, if this is the case.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Ah, well that explains it. I have never been in a Catholic hospital. Would not go to one willingly, unless my very life depended on it.

Apologies, WT, if this is the case.

I hrew up in a small town, Idaho. Half the town was Mormon.
Only hospital in the county was St. Benedict's.
Crucifixes everywhere.
First time i was in a navy hospital, i was actually surprised there were none....

 

[Lion IRC]

That the mere suggestion that some religious beliefs are bad for society and maybe believers might have the humanity to question them triggers them...
such strong and sometimes violent reactions...
The rage and tantrums...

Good summary of the reactions of internet atheist proselytisers when you challenge their sense of secular entitlement.

Try honestly examining your own beliefs in a petty, sexist, bigoted religion of authority worship before casting stones. "No, YOU!!!" is spewed ad nauseum from people who have nothing useful to say. It's really tiresome.

Hang on. I'm amplifying your point.

I agree with you about how bad it is.

Really bad. So, so bad, when these other people spew their opinions about religion. And those other people cast their stones. And then you get those atheists coming along with their rage and tantrums....

 

[WAB]

Ah, well that explains it. I have never been in a Catholic hospital. Would not go to one willingly, unless my very life depended on it.

Apologies, WT, if this is the case.

I hrew up in a small town, Idaho. Half the town was Mormon.
Only hospital in the county was St. Benedict's.
Crucifixes everywhere.
First time i was in a navy hospital, i was actually surprised there were none....

I should have borne all that in mind, and again, my sincere apologies to Worldtraveller. This is a good reminder to some people [MEEEEEEEEE!!!] not to go off half-cocked [avoid pun....avoid pun!!!!]

In my work in the hospital, and indeed in all realms of healthcare, I am constantly bombarded (in-serviced) with reminders about patient's rights, HIPPA laws, patient/resident safety and dignity issues, etc., that it seemed unlikely and highly implausible. Employees where I've worked are sometimes even asked not to wear religious symbols, even if only a piece of jewelry or a necklace that has a cross on it.

And besides, the majority of staff I've encountered are decidedly non-religious themselves.

 

[southernhybrid]

I've been in quite a few Catholic hospitals, ( as a visitor not as a patient ) but I only remember the religious symbols being in the chapels. But, then again, maybe it's easy for me to ignore those things. Or maybe it's because I've lived in the South for most of my adult life and Catholics aren't very popular in the South. I don't know. I'm more concerned with the quality of care in a hospital than it's religious identity. As for me, the best care I ever received in my life was in a Baptist hospital in Texas. Nobody ever mentioned religion to me while I was there, but that was a long time ago when religion wasn't as public as it sometimes seems these days. How did we get to talking about hospitals? You all must have gotten into this while I was sleeping last night.

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

Let me just add that corporate hospitals are the worst and most hospitals in the US today are either owned by corporations.

 

[WAB]

I've been in quite a few Catholic hospitals, but I only remember the religious symbols being in the chapels. But, then again, maybe it's easy for me to ignore those things. Or maybe it's because I've lived in the South for most of my adult life and Catholics aren't very popular in the South. I don't know. I'm more concerned with the quality of care in a hospital than it's religious identity. As for me, the best care I ever received in my life was in a Baptist hospital in Texas. Nobody ever mentioned religion to me while I was there, but that was a long time ago when religion wasn't as public as it sometimes seems these days. How did we get to talking about hospitals? You all must have gotten into this while I was sleeping last night.

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

I am going to look into it, though I agree with Ruth Harris that there is no need to doubt Worldtraveller's word that he saw a cross in the hospital he was at.

However, I would have to wonder how WT wound up there, if not by choice? Perhaps WT will say; but it doesn't matter.

I do think it might be a tad extreme to literally be in fear for your personal safety simply by seeing a cross. But I do not doubt WT's veracity! Perhaps they were justifyably frightened, due to being in a strange location, or medication/disorientation, or the simple notion that one might have somehow wound up dressed in a hospital gown on a miserable bed in a freezing cold room owned and operated by some religious extremists. If WT was there by choice, or by necessity, and had knowledge of where they were being taken, I cannot imagine, myself personally, such a sense of fear to be totally warranted. But I am NOT WT.

All is good.

 

[Brian63]

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

Sarcasm noted. Ignorance also noted.

Sohy, you need to come to terms with the fact that there are certainly times when it is appropriate to tell personal stories, and there are also some better ways to tell those personal stories. There are also worse times and worse ways.

For instance, you should not talk about yourself just for the sake of talking about yourself. Sometimes it is better to have the restraint to not make your posts or other threads or conversations revolve around your long winded stories, or to even try to do so. Do not insert personal anecdotes as often as you tend to, and when you do you can make your relevant points much more succinctly. Have less selfishness and more humility in your writing and speaking, keeping the topic back on what is happening about other people. Not about yourself, over and over again.

Learn more about the concept of "conversational narcissism."

 

[WAB]

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

Sarcasm noted. Ignorance also noted.

Sohy, you need to come to terms with the fact that there are certainly times when it is appropriate to tell personal stories, and there are also some better ways to tell those personal stories. There are also worse times and worse ways.

For instance, you should not talk about yourself just for the sake of talking about yourself. Sometimes it is better to have the restraint to not make your posts or other threads or conversations revolve around your long winded stories, or to even try to do so. Do not insert personal anecdotes as often as you tend to, and when you do you can make your relevant points much more succinctly. Have less selfishness and more humility in your writing and speaking, keeping the topic back on what is happening about other people. Not about yourself, over and over again.

Learn more about the concept of "conversational narcissism."

I enjoy SOHY's stories!

Isn't this kind of admonishment better handled by a moderator???? Sheeeesh!

ETA: Brian, you talk about yourself A LOT. So do I. LOTS of members here do. This is mod territory. I think you are being an ass. Just my two cents.

Sorry, what I am saying is also mod territory, but I am afraid no-one else will come out and say it. I will take the risk because SOHY is a long-standing member and is not ignorant.

 

[Ruth Harris]

I've been in quite a few Catholic hospitals, but I only remember the religious symbols being in the chapels. But, then again, maybe it's easy for me to ignore those things. Or maybe it's because I've lived in the South for most of my adult life and Catholics aren't very popular in the South. I don't know. I'm more concerned with the quality of care in a hospital than it's religious identity. As for me, the best care I ever received in my life was in a Baptist hospital in Texas. Nobody ever mentioned religion to me while I was there, but that was a long time ago when religion wasn't as public as it sometimes seems these days. How did we get to talking about hospitals? You all must have gotten into this while I was sleeping last night.

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

I am going to look into it, though I agree with Ruth Harris that there is no need to doubt Worldtraveller's word that he saw a cross in the hospital he was at....

I should clarify that the experience I had with Catholic hospitals was many years ago, so I can't guarantee that it is still the same way. Things do change over time, particularly given the changes in law regarding medical facilities that receive tax dollars. But then Worldtraveller did not give a time frame for his experience either so it is very possible it was also years ago.

Sorry if I inadvertently misled anyone.

Ruth

 

[Ruth Harris]

Oh my. I'm getting personal again. The horror!

Sarcasm noted. Ignorance also noted.

Sohy, you need to come to terms with the fact that there are certainly times when it is appropriate to tell personal stories, and there are also some better ways to tell those personal stories. There are also worse times and worse ways.

For instance, you should not talk about yourself just for the sake of talking about yourself. Sometimes it is better to have the restraint to not make your posts or other threads or conversations revolve around your long winded stories, or to even try to do so. Do not insert personal anecdotes as often as you tend to, and when you do you can make your relevant points much more succinctly. Have less selfishness and more humility in your writing and speaking, keeping the topic back on what is happening about other people. Not about yourself, over and over again.

Learn more about the concept of "conversational narcissism."

Enough!

I have enjoyed your posts for years, but this reeks of arrogance on your part. As noted by another member, you also talk about yourself a great deal. And there is nothing wrong with that! Forums are intended to allow the sharing of as much (or as little) personal information as a member wants to share. I also enjoy SoHy's posts; they are very informative without being the tedious listing of "only the facts".

Ruth

 

[Brian63]

Isn't this kind of admonishment better handled by a moderator???? Sheeeesh!

Not sure why. There is no forum rule against being a conversational narcissist. It is just a personality trait that some people have. Other people have other personality traits they may find disturbing, but that does not mean it is illegal or against any forum rule even.

ETA: Brian, you talk about yourself A LOT. So do I. LOTS of members here do. This is mod territory. I think you are being an ass. Just my two cents.

Okay. But I believe calling another poster an "ass" would come closer to a rule violation than it is pointing out how they talk about themselves excessively.

 

[Brian63]

Enough!

I have enjoyed your posts for years, but this reeks of arrogance on your part. As noted by another member, you also talk about yourself a great deal. And there is nothing wrong with that! Forums are intended to allow the sharing of as much (or as little) personal information as a member wants to share. I also enjoy SoHy's posts; they are very informative without being the tedious listing of "only the facts".

Ruth

Well, we disagree on some points. But a shouting match is not going to resolve any disagreements.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I am going to look into it, though I agree with Ruth Harris that there is no need to doubt Worldtraveller's word that he saw a cross in the hospital he was at.

Not A crucifix, but one in every room I was wheeled by, and instead of typical scenery type artowrk along the halls, they were various saints and religious iconography.

However, I would have to wonder how WT wound up there, if not by choice? Perhaps WT will say; but it doesn't matter.

Note aboe I say I was wheeled. You actually don't have much of a choice in which hospital they take you to in an ambulance (and generally, it's the closest one, for obvious reasons).

I do think it might be a tad extreme to literally be in fear for your personal safety simply by seeing a cross. But I do not doubt WT's veracity! Perhaps they were justifyably frightened, due to being in a strange location, or medication/disorientation, or the simple notion that one might have somehow wound up dressed in a hospital gown on a miserable bed in a freezing cold room owned and operated by some religious extremists. If WT was there by choice, or by necessity, and had knowledge of where they were being taken, I cannot imagine, myself personally, such a sense of fear to be totally warranted. But I am NOT WT.

All is good.

Most hospitals have a fair bit of religous paraphanelia. This one was so over the top as to creep me out (you know those crucifixes that really emphasize the gore? most of them were like that, combined with the pictures it was disconcerting).
Also: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/health/catholic-hospitals-procedures.html

Just fucking read it, and then fuck off with your argument from personal incredulity.

And I do want to note that I've been in many other (even overtly catholic) hospitals and NOT had this impression, but I wouldn't voluntarily go back to that one (luckily, I'm living in that state anymore).