The Democratic Party has attractive positions for moderate republicians/center right voters

[starwater]

You can twist the facts all you want to "own the libs" we aren't buying it.

Because the libs aren't the libs anymore. I should know because I used to actually contribute to the democrats before becoming an independent which I am now.

If you are the least bit open minded you should be able to see this yourself. Axulus (the OP) is pretty conservative and now he is in agreement with you. Both the conservative and liberals are shifting their positions in many ways.

It used to be a liberal position to protect labor against capitalists. Not any more
It used to be a liberal position to stay out of sporting wars. Not any more.
It used to be a liberal position to protect and enjoy free speech. Not any more.

Got you to react!!!

 

[Swammerdami]

Sorry but when a small city in Ohio suddenly increases by 20,000 new comers, the borders are open. That's not propaganda thats just reality.

Are the Ilkists, Lickers and other Idiots even aware of the concept of visas and LEGAL immigration??

 

[laughing dog]

The truth is:

• America lost industrial jobs because it was cheaper to have poorer people do it overseas and innovation led to improvements in processes that led to fewer people and resources being needed for the work. Not because of immigrants.
• Health care is expensive, because it requires highly trained people with expensive machines, and our population is aging. Not because of immigrants.
• America already has a lot of jobs.

Wrong on all counts.
1. America lost industrial jobs because our government wanted this. They could have easily kept our high value manufacturing with the proper tax structure. But our government was purchased by the oligarchy to screw out domestic labor that already was in place. Unions are completely ineffective if a corporation can simply move out. Either the democrats or republicans could have prevented this.

2. Health care is expensive because the pharmaceutical oligarchy can make more profits this way. They have purchased our government to make sure this continues.

3. America does not have a lot of jobs and we are trending the wrong direction. China has surpassed the US in GDP. Furthermore, we don't really want just a lot of jobs what we want is a lot of good jobs that can provide good incomes.

China's nominal GDP is about $19 trillion while the US's is about $25 trillion. The gap in GDP per capita between those countries is even greater.

Unpacking China's GDP | ChinaPower Project

This ChinaPower tracker includes 10 charts with up-to-date data to help unpack key aspects of China's GDP.

chinapower.csis.org

Measuring GDP at Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) accounts for price level differences and typically has a large impact when comparing wealthy countries to developing countries. China’s nominal GDP is the second-largest after the United States, but measured at PPP, China’s GDP is larger than that of the United States.1

Well, if you are going to use adjustments, GDP at Purchasing Power Parity per capita is much higher in the US than China because China's population is 4 times that of USA's.

The US does have lots of jobs. The US uemployment rate is fairly low.

Your arguments are based on a very distorted view of reality.

 

[laughing dog]

You may not realize it, but you sound like a victim of a cult. You believe things that aren't true. You like the things you hear from the cult leader. I just ordered a book about how cults are formed and how they keep their members in the cult. Trump is one of the most obvious, harmful cult leaders in the country. I wish you would learn more about how he is manipulating people, instead of believing the claims that he and the MAGA leaders keep making. What exactly do you think these rich monsters are going to do for people like you, for the average American. Trump only care about the ultra wealthy crazies, like Musk, who gladly supports him for his own gain. Why do you despise or act like you despise hard working immigrants who take jobs that are in need of good workers, like farming, meat packing, healthcare. A good percentage of healthcare workers, especially aides are immigrants from countries like Haiti, and Mexico. I worked with a couple of them and I know the excellent nursing home where my mother spent her final days was mostly staffed by immigrants who provided her with excellent care, based on my knowledge of caring for older adults myself in long term care as an RN.

It doesn't feel like a cult to me. I think I know exactly what Trump and MAGA represent because they are so obvious. Anyone with an IQ above 20 can probably understand most if not all the ego flaws of Trump, but he does not scare me at all. What I fear much worse is what I do not know. And up until Trump/Harris debate I had no idea there was a small town in Ohio that had been taken over with immigrants.

And its not that I don't like other new comers...that's not the point. What I don't like is our government that does things in utter secrecy even if it is for my own good. For all I know, maybe America does need the immigration because our birth rates are too low. But do it up front and don't lie to us all!! Tell us the borders are open on purpose because our leadership thinks it the responsible thing to do. Tell us that we can expect some small cities to be taken over by new comers but don't worry about this, because in the longer run they will keep the economy on track so that the baby boomers can be supported in retirement. Don't act like theives in the night and then tell you did not know the borders were open and you could do nothing to stop this.

It is all this secrecy and stealth that I fear. Because usually it is the thieves in the night that you should be worried about.

If our borders were "porous", there'd be a lot more people coming into this country.

Compared to our neighbors to the south as well as many overseas, our country is a beacon of safety, prosperity and hope. It is because of our success (i.e. our greatness) that they wish to come here. That is a tribute to our country whether one likes it or not.
Our immigration issue is not the result of deliberate policy but of no policy. Our country has no consensus on the appropriate policy (whatever that may be).
It does not take a conspiracy to cause a lack of consensus. It only takes intransigence.

I struggle with your conspiracy driven view of the world. And I believe you are unduly overconfident about what you think Trump represents because his track record makes it obvious - he represents himself and nothing else. His history is replete with his broken promises. History shows anyone who is awake that nothing he says can be trusted.

The last time the US oligarchy imported cheap labor in this country at such a massive scale was when slaves of Africa were shipped into the new world. How did that work out long term for the US??

At those times, you and Axulus would have told us that these slaves were great thing for the American economy because cotton goods produced in the south would be more affordable to the middle class! And you would have said it with a straight face!

Please do not tell me what I would have said. I would never had said slavery was a great thing for the US economy because slavery is immoral which trumps the perceived benefit to the economy.

What oligarchy are you on about?

Your arguments are becoming more unhinged to reality with every post. I am worried for you.

 

[RVonse]

Why don't we accept immigration now?

Then why do all the countries in the world have borders?

Hell, you say everyone is a legal person so why do we need front doors on our homes, fences around our property, and even bars on windows sometimes. If you can honestly come to answer some of those questions you will realize why every country has borders and why sovereignty is important.

You may also come to realize why many wars get started and people die for their territory as well.

 

[laughing dog]

Why don't we accept immigration now?

Then why do all the countries in the world have borders?

Hell, you say everyone is a legal person so why do we need front doors on our homes, fences around our property, and even bars on windows sometimes. If you can honestly come to answer some of those questions you will realize why every country has borders and why sovereignty is important.

You may also come to realize why many wars get started and people die for their territory as well.

Sovereignty is important. So is good hygiene. Lots of things are important. What does immigration have to do with losing sovereignty?

 

[RVonse]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

 

[RVonse]

What does immigration have to do with losing sovereignty?

Immigration without control is an open border. And an open border is a country without sovereignty.

 

[laughing dog]

What does immigration have to do with losing sovereignty?

Immigration without control is an open border. And an open border is a country without sovereignty.

Why would anyone think that?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit.

You skipped the part about between the Civil War and today, like the Gilded Age, where the billionaire capitalist class controlled our government. Even helped start a fucking war (Spanish American War). Corporations in the 1950s led the move for "Under God" in order to push back against socialism and demands to have our labor properly rewarded, as well as economic security nets to protect us from pitfalls of life.

In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

That has been an American staple since slavery was introduced. It transitioned to most Americans (and immigrants) post slavery. Like the Railroads, and coal/steel industries. Corporations fought hard to restrict workers from organizing. People died.

Your complaints betray your ignorance on the history of American Labor. You make it sound like things are different today than they were. Things haven't changed that much. We just get hurt and die at work much less often.

 

[laughing dog]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

For someone who has openly supported free markets and capitalism and Donald Trump, you are sounding more like a Marxist.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why don't we accept immigration now?

Then why do all the countries in the world have borders?

Man, getting back into the US would be so much easier if the borders were as porous as some would suggest.

 

[Patooka]

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

So why do you unconditionally support policies that benefit oligarchs at the expense of the middle class?

 

[RVonse]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

For someone who has openly supported free markets and capitalism and Donald Trump, you are sounding more like a Marxist.

????? Ill make it clear then. Yes I do support free markets and capitalism. Those are not Marxist at all. And neither free markets, capitalism, nor Marxism has anything to do with the US being an oligarchy. Which I do not support US being an oligarchy at all.

Some may say that an oligarchy is reached during late state capitalism and that may eventually be a result. But IMO oligarchy is almost the exact opposite of a free market. A free market can only be free where there is competition.

 

[Axulus]

You have a propensity of believing outlandish lies you get from social media and exotic other sites online. So please, stop with your issues with lies. The borders aren't wide open. We are not being invaded. Stop believing the bullshit you are exposing yourself to.

Sorry but when a small city in Ohio suddenly increases by 20,000 new comers, the borders are open. That's not propaganda thats just reality.

What an insanely irrational definition. Hatians have been legally immigrating to the US since the 1980s. None of this is a secret.

We are a nation of immigrants. Do you know nothing of our history of immigration? Allowing some number of immigrants to the country is not "open borders" by any sane definition.

Do you have the same xenophobic worries about white immigrants moving to a city? Where is your outrage about the Irish quarter in Boston? They even display the Irish flag on their pubs and even their houses, the unpatriotic scum. Or if you want a smaller town, how about Scituate, MA which has 61.5% of its people of Irish ancestry.

Or do you only fear the blacks?

I don't fear any race. I fear the politicians who claim they have no responsibility to fix a broken border when they have no problem at all fixing borders for other countries. I fear their dishonesty more than any other.

Bipartisan border bill, Joe Biden said he would sign it, Trump didn't want it fixed because that would hurt his election chances, and effectively killed it.

That was a step in the right direction.

What border bill did Trump get passed? What wall did he get built? He was supposed to be some genius dealmaker and yet was too incompetient to make any deal with congress to get anything done. Don't listen to maligniant narcissists making empty promises and constantly spreading lies and fear.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

For someone who has openly supported free markets and capitalism and Donald Trump, you are sounding more like a Marxist.

????? Ill make it clear then. Yes I do support free markets and capitalism. Those are not Marxist at all. And neither free markets, capitalism, nor Marxism has anything to do with the US being an oligarchy. Which I do not support US being an oligarchy at all.

The US has always been a loosely held oligarchy. Who do you think the Founding Fathers were?

Some may say that an oligarchy is reached during late state capitalism and that may eventually be a result. But IMO oligarchy is almost the exact opposite of a free market. A free market can only be free where there is competition.

A "free market" is the economic equivalent of a perpetual motion machine. It is like a physics exam, where you need to determine the distance an object goes when fired at x degrees and y velocity... while neglecting wind, drag, and a number of other things.

 

[Patooka]

Which I do not support US being an oligarchy at all.

My dude, you've quoted Tucker Carlson as a reliable source of information and support a billionaire property developer with a long history of fucking over his workers out of a fair wage. Both of whom are the textbook definition of nepo babies, incidentally.

Hate to break it to you, but you very much support the US being an oligarchy.

 

[Axulus]

Anti-Demonization and spread of lies and hate about people living in the country. The lie about Hatians eating pets as one example.

If you care about reality, here is an actual video of Springfield, Ohio speaking with many people in this small town all expressing frustrations with the number of migrants that have overwhelmed their small midwest city.

It should be noted this producer does many other locations and is rarely if ever political in his stance. Leading me to believe the content is real and trustworthy. It should also be noted that the lie about hatians eating dogs was probably an exaggeration but eating of cats and geese was not. It is part of their culture. And finally, it should be noted that this is only the start of what will probably be more to come in other parts of our country with a Harris presidency.

In the past, the oligarchy outsourced factories to other countries. Now they want to move that same cheap labor into our country.

So done random guy pulls up unannounced telling some people he wants to interview them for his YouTube channel —about ‘what is going on around here.’ I would definitely not be inclined to be on the internet.

It genuinely does become an issue for communities when a large number of immigrants of any color or culture settle into a community, more so if there is a language difference, particularly schools and medical facilities. But people on this video are either grossly ignorant or out and out lying. No one has $30K in EBT benefits. Immigrants are not given thousands of dollars by the US government. Schools have English as a second language programs where students who are not yet proficient in English spend the bulk of their school day.

I highly doubt that 19 year olds are enrolling as freshmen in high school. Almost certainly, young adults would be directed to GED classes with other adults. No one is just paying for immigrants to fix their homes, but it is possible that some church groups do work with families to help them get necessities and to make sure homes are up to code.

My experience with immigrants is that they are willing to live with larger groups of people than most Americans consider, share resources well, and know how to look good for cheap. It takes courage and determination to succeed to be willing to leave your native land and live some place far from anything you know.

Fair enough. But it still looks suspiciously like a group effort managed by someone with deep pockets. Why did they all pick Springfield, Ohio en mass to settle? How did they know they were going to a particular location with prospects for work?

My great (great?) grandparents immigrated from Germany too but they did not come with food cards, housing, and expensive vehicles to settle in one place. Many of their other peers immigrating from Europe were lucky to settle in the same state less being focused in one particular town.

My primary care physician is a Sikh from Dearborn. Why are there so many Sikhs in Dearborn?

And how could my friend’s Italian grandmother live out her life, most of it in Little Italy, without ever learning English? Or produce grandchildren who earned Ph.D.s.

The difference is this. The difference is that back then we accepted immigration after it was legally agreed to by the US public. My ancestors were not illegal immigrants they were legal. And there were expectations put upon their arrival. The rest of the country knew what was going on when his family entered this country and were not left to wonder why new people were suddenly appearing. My ancestors had to pay for their own trip over here, and when they arrived had to pay for their own subsistence.

Ok good, these are valid issues to discuss. Why not stick to that instead of spreading lies, hate, fear and false conspiracies and supporting the politicians who do the same?

What do you mean "rest of the country knew what was going on"?

There is no mystery here on what is going on with Springfield, as we already explained. Anyone with a smartphone can look up information on immigrants living in the U.S. from Haiti and how many new arrivals there are to the U.S. each year. Most of them are here legally, including the ones in Springfield.

If any locals wanted to know more, all they need to do is come to their town halls or talk to their mayor. Or how about talking to their new neighbors? A novel concept, I know.

Also, I wouldn't at all be surprised if the city and Republician mayor welcomed them in to help fill jobs and revitalize the town. Not every city is hateful and fearful towards legal immigrants.

 

[laughing dog]

What oligarchy are you on about?

Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

What in the World: A new report finds that an elite few dominate US policy, the human error behind South Korea's ferry tragedy, and Algeria's uneasy status quo election.

www.bbc.com

Back before the civil war the oligarchy were the plantation owners. Today it is the billionaire capitalist class who control our government to their benefit. In particular, cheap labor either imported or by exporting operations enhances their profit so as to maintain ever higher wealth disparity.

For someone who has openly supported free markets and capitalism and Donald Trump, you are sounding more like a Marxist.

????? Ill make it clear then. Yes I do support free markets and capitalism. Those are not Marxist at all. And neither free markets, capitalism, nor Marxism has anything to do with the US being an oligarchy. Which I do not support US being an oligarchy at all.

Some may say that an oligarchy is reached during late state capitalism and that may eventually be a result. But IMO oligarchy is almost the exact opposite of a free market. A free market can only be free where there is competition.

If labor is a free market, then unfettered immigration is part of that free market. Yet you oppose unfettered immigration.
Oligarchy has competition. Pure monopoly is the only market structure without any competition. Oligarchs are simply acting in their self-perceived best interest, as does everyone in a free market. Yet you are complaining about oligarchs especially when they are "conspiring" to create and keep a free market in labor.

 

[RVonse]

Bipartisan border bill, Joe Biden said he would sign it, Trump didn't want it fixed because that would hurt his election chances, and effectively killed it.

That was a step in the right direction.

What border bill did Trump get passed? What wall did he get built? He was supposed to be some genius dealmaker and yet was too incompetient to make any deal with congress to get anything done. Don't listen to maligniant narcissists making empty promises and constantly spreading lies and fear.

As I recall, Trump was not holding any sort of government office when this bill came up yet somehow he killed it. And as I also recall, while the bill was addressing the border and having that title, it was not actually accomplishing anything productive to that end that could not be instantly done at the executive level.

In any case, it is an error on your part to call me a Trump fan which I am not. He has brought a lot of populous ideas forward but was terrible in the execution of any of it excepting his trade agreements. He never was nor is a politician.

Say what you would like about the maligniant narcissists making empty promises, at least they do us the service by informing the public of government stealth which goes by everyday. Trump's story of the dogs and cat lunacy was entertainment to laugh at but also served the purpose just how bad our borders have become.