The Democrats are going to rig the next election the same way they cheated last time

[Harry Bosch]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Would you agree that the evidence that you've provided so far (someone else quote "alleges circumstantial evidence") is pretty dang weak evidence?

 

[Ford]

. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Not only is that easily explainable it was even predicted beforehand.

Very easily. Here in AZ, we've had mail in voting for decades. Most voters send their ballots in the mail (and it is very secure - see the link in my above post) and a relatively small minority do in person voting.

Not all of them are willing to answer an exit poll. So it is perfectly reasonable that an exit poll could show one candidate ahead on election night, but when the mail in ballots are counted, that lead could shrink or vanish entirely.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

No, there were no states Trump was winning in the exit polls and then lost. In fact Biden underperformed the exit polling in Arizona.

Here is some posting from 2020 election night. Exit polling is always my immediate go to.

2020 Election Results

I have no idea how accurate exit polls are, but NY Times Michigan shows a blow out for Biden. Trump carried 7 pts among men, Biden 23 pts among women. That seems like a crazy swing. PA is much closer, Trump men by 8 pts, Biden women by 10 pts. WI is like Michigan (why did I abbrev. WI but...

iidb.org

Check out post 53 where I call Arizona for Biden (again election night). So I have no idea where you got your multiple statea claim.

 

[LoAmmo]

This is like trying to tell your dog that fraud on a level sufficient to swing presidential elections didn’t happen, in 2020 or any other year.
Sure, the dog might look at you, maybe even wag its tail as if to say, “I hear you,” but…really…it doesn’t. It hears noise, but isn’t really participating cognitively in an exchange of knowledge.
Woof!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The interesting thing about RVonse's post is the it was Biden who outperformed on the Exit Polls in WI, MI, and AZ, but didn't do as well in the final tally. Winning each of them, but by smaller totals. Yet, RVonse has this odd idea that it was the complete opposite. That can only really happen when someone isn't paying attention to current events and lets noise being the source of information.

 

[RVonse]

IMO ballet mailing should be illegal if they can not design a way to prevent fraud. This is exactly why the republicans felt (and still feel) the last election was stolen. Because if you can not prove fraud that did not mean it did not happen.

You've said some dumb things in the past, but this one surely takes the cake.

If you claim fraud, the burden of proof is on you.

And who the fuck cares what people "feel" about the election? If feelings were proof, then the Earth would be flat and Jesus would be coming back tomorrow for sure, because lots of people feel those things are true!

But that aside, you clearly haven't thought this through. What do we know about Republicans? They want power. It is their sole reason for existing as a party. To gain power in order to enact their agenda. We've seen how far they are willing to go in order to do this. Witness Mitch McConnell holding up Garland's nomination to the Supreme Court for almost a year on the bet that a Republican would win in 2016 and appoint a justice that was more amenable to their agenda.

Now, follow me on this...do you really think that McConnell and the rest of the Republican Party (the leaders, not the howler monkeys like MTG and Bobo) didn't look into this "election was stolen" stuff? Because I guarantee they looked at it very closely. Republicans were in charge of plenty of state governments in 2020, and the receipts would be available. They would no doubt have done a deep dive on every aspect of the election and if they believed there was "massive voter fraud," they'd have brought the proof by now. Yet they haven't done this. In my own state, the biggest county's Recorder (the office that runs the elections) did just such a deep dive, as he was a dedicated Trump supporter and Arizona was one of the states where "massive fraud" was alleged.

He found nothing.

But let's do a little thought experiment. Let's assume there really was all this proof of fraud. It follows that Republicans could use this proof to re-litigate the 2020 elections at every level. Not only that, but if they really had the goods, they could quite possibly jail the (no doubt Democratic) leaders of the plot(s), and use the evidence to utterly destroy the Democratic Party as a political force for at least a generation. Perhaps even forever. Pelosi, Schumer, AOC, and the rest of the GOP bogeymen would be either stripped of their offices or at least be rendered utterly un electable. The Democrats would be the "Party That Tried To Steal An Election." The GOP would become the permanent majority party, we'd be coming to the end of Trump's 2nd term, and there's even a chance that they'd have overturned the 22nd Amendment so that he could run for a third. Or having full control of every level of government, simply declare him to be king.

Do you really think that Mitch McConnell and the rest of the Republican leadership sat there in front of a pile of all this evidence and said "nah...we'll just settle back into minority party status and try again next time?"

I don't. Because that would be not just stupid, but a dereliction of duty. And this is how you know that THEY know there was no "massive voter fraud." Because if they truly believed this, they would have acted upon it. Instead, they go on friendly able talk shows and intone ominously about "irregularities" and "election integrity" but they never provide any actual evidence. It's a sham, and you fell for it hard. A lot of people have. Now you're doing mental gymnastics trying to defend the sham.

If there really was all this "proof" of "massive voter fraud," there is no way in hell the GOP would have slept on it.

Yes McConnel would have sifted through what was he could possibly find for evidence he could have. You are absolutely right that he probably did, no argument there. But the point is that our system is setup so poorly that fraud can still be going on that can not be seen or proven by officials.

It does not even matter to me at this point if the election was stolen or not. That's not really the point. What does matter (and should matter to you too) is that our election process is corrected so that this kind of election fraud CAN'T happen.

One extremely easy and IMO reasonable thing that could be changed right away is to make sure all ballots are filled out by people who prove they are citizens. That seems pretty easy and reasonable considering all the security passwords and measures everyone else in this country requires. But somehow the Democrats don't seem to want to ever let that happen for some reason. Which kind of leads me to believe the Republicans might actually be right about this.

 

[laughing dog]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Unless the mail in ballots show some extreme skew, so what?

I recall the My Pillow moron making claims about election fraud in a county on WI but he claimed a vote count that exceeded the number of registered voter, by a large number.

 

[laughing dog]

IMO ballet mailing should be illegal if they can not design a way to prevent fraud. This is exactly why the republicans felt (and still feel) the last election was stolen. Because if you can not prove fraud that did not mean it did not happen.

You've said some dumb things in the past, but this one surely takes the cake.

If you claim fraud, the burden of proof is on you.

And who the fuck cares what people "feel" about the election? If feelings were proof, then the Earth would be flat and Jesus would be coming back tomorrow for sure, because lots of people feel those things are true!

But that aside, you clearly haven't thought this through. What do we know about Republicans? They want power. It is their sole reason for existing as a party. To gain power in order to enact their agenda. We've seen how far they are willing to go in order to do this. Witness Mitch McConnell holding up Garland's nomination to the Supreme Court for almost a year on the bet that a Republican would win in 2016 and appoint a justice that was more amenable to their agenda.

Now, follow me on this...do you really think that McConnell and the rest of the Republican Party (the leaders, not the howler monkeys like MTG and Bobo) didn't look into this "election was stolen" stuff? Because I guarantee they looked at it very closely. Republicans were in charge of plenty of state governments in 2020, and the receipts would be available. They would no doubt have done a deep dive on every aspect of the election and if they believed there was "massive voter fraud," they'd have brought the proof by now. Yet they haven't done this. In my own state, the biggest county's Recorder (the office that runs the elections) did just such a deep dive, as he was a dedicated Trump supporter and Arizona was one of the states where "massive fraud" was alleged.

He found nothing.

But let's do a little thought experiment. Let's assume there really was all this proof of fraud. It follows that Republicans could use this proof to re-litigate the 2020 elections at every level. Not only that, but if they really had the goods, they could quite possibly jail the (no doubt Democratic) leaders of the plot(s), and use the evidence to utterly destroy the Democratic Party as a political force for at least a generation. Perhaps even forever. Pelosi, Schumer, AOC, and the rest of the GOP bogeymen would be either stripped of their offices or at least be rendered utterly un electable. The Democrats would be the "Party That Tried To Steal An Election." The GOP would become the permanent majority party, we'd be coming to the end of Trump's 2nd term, and there's even a chance that they'd have overturned the 22nd Amendment so that he could run for a third. Or having full control of every level of government, simply declare him to be king.

Do you really think that Mitch McConnell and the rest of the Republican leadership sat there in front of a pile of all this evidence and said "nah...we'll just settle back into minority party status and try again next time?"

I don't. Because that would be not just stupid, but a dereliction of duty. And this is how you know that THEY know there was no "massive voter fraud." Because if they truly believed this, they would have acted upon it. Instead, they go on friendly able talk shows and intone ominously about "irregularities" and "election integrity" but they never provide any actual evidence. It's a sham, and you fell for it hard. A lot of people have. Now you're doing mental gymnastics trying to defend the sham.

If there really was all this "proof" of "massive voter fraud," there is no way in hell the GOP would have slept on it.

Yes McConnel would have sifted through what was he could possibly find for evidence he could have. You are absolutely right that he probably did, no argument there. But the point is that our system is setup so poorly that fraud can still be going on that can not be seen or proven by officials.

It does not even matter to me at this point if the election was stolen or not. That's not really the point. What does matter (and should matter to you too) is that our election process is corrected so that this kind of election fraud CAN'T happen.

One extremely easy and IMO reasonable thing that could be changed right away is to make sure all ballots are filled out by people who prove they are citizens. That seems pretty easy and reasonable considering all the security passwords and measures everyone else in this country requires. But somehow the Democrats don't seem to want to ever let that happen for some reason. Which kind of leads me to believe the Republicans might actually be right about this.

if there was no fraud, then there is no need to raise taxes and reduce our freedoms to correct a nonexistent problem in order to satisfy a delusional sore loser and his gullble dupes.

 

[RVonse]

If it is so easy to cheat in elections using mail-in ballots the Republicans could have done it just as easily as the Democrats.

You might as well say God rigged the election if you can provide no evidence of the fraud.

But according to the Republican's there is a big difference in the pool of potential fraud Democrat versus what would be possible for Republicans. That is because (according to them) most of the illegals were motivated by Democrat entitlements to cross the border in the first place and their pool is huge. It would be huge stack of illegal ballots for Democrats versus Republican votes. See the above video.

So, since there’s no evidence of it, please explain how exactly an illegal immigrant votes by mail and gets it counted?

I'm not a fraud expert but even I can see how you could dupe the system. Just canvass immigrants with ballots when you bus them to their new motel rooms that you have just provided for them. Help them fill them out. Then mix those ballots at the post office with good ballots to the election office.

 

[starwater]

Ballet mailing. You must dance to the mailbox in ballet shoes.

 

[RVonse]

if there was no fraud, then there is no need to raise taxes and reduce our freedoms to correct a nonexistent problem in order to satisfy a delusional sore loser and his gullble dupes.

Touchee.

But really, how much is the need to raise taxes to simply require a drivers license or other proof of being an actual citizen?

 

[jonatha]

I'm not a fraud expert but even I can see how you could dupe the system. Just canvass immigrants with ballots when you bus them to there new motel rooms that you have just provided for them. Help them fill them out. Then mix those ballots at the post office with good ballots to the election office

I missed the part where you get their names on the voting rolls the ballots are checked against and their signatures on the lists of voters used to match those on the envelopes containing the ballots...

 

[laughing dog]

if there was no fraud, then there is no need to raise taxes and reduce our freedoms to correct a nonexistent problem in order to satisfy a delusional sore loser and his gullble dupes.

Touchee.

But really, how much is the need to raise taxes to simply require a drivers license or other proof of being an actual citizen?

Somebody has to do it. So either something else isn’t done or it will cost more.

If there is no fraud, why should voters be inconvenienced in order to satisfy a delusional crybaby sore loser and his gullible dupes?

 

[RVonse]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Would you agree that the evidence that you've provided so far (someone else quote "alleges circumstantial evidence") is pretty dang weak evidence?

Yes.

Would you agree it makes sense to fix a weak and vulnerable election system if it did not cost a lot of tax funds?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

if there was no fraud, then there is no need to raise taxes and reduce our freedoms to correct a nonexistent problem in order to satisfy a delusional sore loser and his gullble dupes.

Touchee.

But really, how much is the need to raise taxes to simply require a drivers license or other proof of being an actual citizen?

Let's look at Rhode Island which requires a photo ID and Connecticut that only requires evidence of ID and Massachusetts which is the wild west. CT, RI were 59 to 39 for Biden, MA was 65 to 32 (MA is pretty liberal). Regarding illegals, in Massachusetts:

However, first-time voters in federal elections, inactive voters, voters casting provisional ballots, and voters who are asked by a poll worker to provide ID due to reasonable suspicion are required to do so.

So any of those migrants flown to Martha's Vineyard would need to prove their Identification before voting in 2024. Also, there is the whole, you need to REGISTER TO VOTE!

Now, are you going to actually choose a position: there was fraud, we should cower in the threat of voter fraud, we must do everything we can (though I can't actually demonstrate otherwise) to prevent voter fraud.

 

[Ford]

If there really was all this "proof" of "massive voter fraud," there is no way in hell the GOP would have slept on it.

Yes McConnel would have sifted through what was he could possibly find for evidence he could have. You are absolutely right that he probably did, no argument there. But the point is that our system is setup so poorly that fraud can still be going on that can not be seen or proven by officials.

As ole' Ronny Raygun said, "well...there you go again."

See, what you just did there is called a baseless assertion. You simply stated that "our system is setup so poorly that fraud can still be going on that can not be seen or proven by officials." Simply saying it does not make it true. You have to show your homework, explain exactly how such a thing could happen, and then back it up with examples of such fraud actually happening. By the way, this is not the first time this sort of thing has been investigated. Trump claimed "widespread fraud" in the 2016 election, and when he took office appointed a blue-ribbon panel to "root out all the fraud,"

Awhile later, that panel quietly closed up shop, having found no evidence that any such thing happened. Here in Arizona, the GOP Senate hired the "Cyber Ninjas" to go through each and every single ballot to "find the fraud." The founder of the organization firmly believed the election was "stolen," and the entire operation - employees and volunteers - was staffed with people of the same mind. Yet after months of (again) looking at every single ballot, they found that there was no fraud, and by their count Biden even won the state by a few hundred more votes.

Again, the burden of proof is on you, the claimant. So far all you've done is make assertions and back them up with nothing more than "I can see how it could happen." Did you read the article I linked in my above post? You should. Here it is again. Here is an excerpt, but you really should read it all:

Maricopa County has used the same tabulation vendor and ballot printer, and has had many of
the same employees, for more than 20 years. This team oversaw Maricopa County's vote for
Trump in 2016, for Mitt Romney in 2012, for John McCain in 2008, and for George W. Bush in
2004. It administered the election of the continued Republican control of the Arizona state
legislature in 2020.
Through all these elections, there had never been a report of significant tabulation problems or
widespread fraud. Hardly anyone had heard of Dominion prior to November.
Maricopa County’s tabulation machines undergo a battery of federal, state, and county
certifications and tests. The tabulation software and hardware used by Maricopa County are
approved by the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, the Arizona Secretary of State, and the
United States Election Assistance Commission—a body that reported to Trump during his time
in office. Maricopa County only uses certified hardware and software. Before each federal
election, the Secretary of State conducts a “logic and accuracy test” to make sure the tabulation
machines accurately read the votes. This consists of inserting stacks of pre-marked ballots into
the machines and making sure the machines correctly tabulate the results. Prior to the
November 2020 election, Maricopa County’s tabulation machines performed this test with
100% accuracy.

It explains in great detail - with sources - why Maricopa County's election was free, fair, and secure. You do not seem to understand how election security works.

 

[Ford]

I'm not a fraud expert but even I can see how you could dupe the system. Just canvass immigrants with ballots when you bus them to there new motel rooms that you have just provided for them. Help them fill them out. Then mix those ballots at the post office with good ballots to the election office

I missed the part where you get their names on the voting rolls the ballots are checked against and their signatures on the lists of voters used to match those on the envelopes containing the ballots...

Yeah, huge red flag right there. Someone obviously doesn't know that each and every mail in ballot is verified against the database of registered voters. Each ballot comes in it's own envelope, so if a bunch of ballots were dropped off at the post office "mixed in" with the others, they'd end up in a trash bin eventually. After - of course - the extensive investigation into who was behind dropping off so many unverified ballots.

 

[ZiprHead]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Republicans have made it law that mail in ballot must be counted last. Then republicans can complain about mail in ballots changing the counts like there is fraud. Another bit of right wing lying you keep falling for.

And you cannot just drop a bunch of fraudulent ballots into the mix because if so the poll books would not match.

Disputing Trump, Barr (Trump's own guy) says no widespread election fraud

Rusty Bowers (R-AZ) says Giuliani told him: ‘We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence’

 

[Ford]

Rusty Bowers (R-AZ) says Giuliani told him: ‘We’ve got lots of theories, we just don’t have the evidence’

Rusty was one of the leading "old school" Republicans here in AZ. He was the Speaker of the House, a Mormon (which is a big thing here) and a fourth generation Arizonan. He's a conservative, to put it mildly, and was a Trump supporter. His long political career ended when he said that Trump lost, and he has become a pariah in the party he was a member of for his entire political life due to his honest testimony for the January 6th Committee. I highly recommend watching the full interview he did with PBS Frontline, where he explains his interactions with Giuliani, among other things. He knows the whole "election was stolen" thing is bullshit.

 

[Harry Bosch]

If ballot fraud is so easy and prevalent, there should be plenty of evidence of it. Yet, to date, no one has come up with any.

Also, the accusation that Democrats steal elections by ballot fraud sounds like an example of “Every accusation is a confession”. Remember the 2000 election?

They allege circumstantial evidence though. If memory serves there were a couple states Trump was winning on exit polls and then mail in ballots suddenly came in to completely reversed that trend.

Would you agree that the evidence that you've provided so far (someone else quote "alleges circumstantial evidence") is pretty dang weak evidence?

Yes.

Would you agree it makes sense to fix a weak and vulnerable election system if it did not cost a lot of tax funds?

Absolutely! We are in full agreement here. I think that our voting process is very loose and sloppy. This is a huge issue in that it causes people to lose confidence in our voting process. I'm with you a 100%. However, I have one very very big request: any changes to make the system better and more reliable must be done BEFORE the election. It's not fair to attempt to change the process after the election is over which is what Trump tried to do. Do you agree?