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The gender pay gap in Biden's White House

I can certainly understand this! I don't live in the U.S.A. either. And I can't begin to list the many issues in the U.S. that concern me. Topping the list is the high probability that elections beginning in 2022 will be much less democratic than we're used to, and that the U.S. will veer toward a fascist model. Also high on the list are systemic disinformation, climate change, gun violence, dysfunctional government, and growing intolerance and racism.

The tiny male-to-female W.H. salary gap (1% mean, and still smallish when measured by median)

Except it isn't "smallish". It's a far bigger gap than the gap reported by Pew and the US Census Bureau. If the White House is concerned about the median wage gap in the country (and it certainly appears to be, with its narrative around 'Equal Pay Day') then it has failed by its own standards.

is NOT on my list. Nor is it on yours, I guess: it sounds like you oppose use of this statistic (except when you think it shows Ds in a bad light).

I oppose the use of the statistic itself (whether mean or median) without controlling for non-gender factors known to influence earnings. The narrative built around the statistic is bullshit, and the putative goal (to reduce the gender pay gap to zero) is both impossible and undesirable.

You are concerned with the "hypocrisy" of Biden to allow any wage gap at all. (Had he hired more male stenographers and a few more female senior aides, you'd accuse him of trickery to fudge the statistic — did I guess right? Was there anything he could have done on this matter to win your approval?)

Of course. The White House could have reported the earnings of the White House staff, and said:

"The median salary of men in the White House is $100,000 and for women it is $80,000. We are confident that we did not discriminate by gender in hiring and setting salaries and we know we have created an inclusive workplace. Although there is a gender pay gap in the White House, it is justified by the different roles and experience that men and women have taken in the White House".


In a recent post I laughed at Trump's billing Don Jr.'s $7 Boy Scout membership to the Trump Foundation "charity"; I suppose many thought this concern too petty by far. We all have different pet issues that are objectively trivial yet seem important to us. Thanks for sharing yours.

Are you aware of your own condescending nastiness? I don't think there is anything "objectively trivial" about the false narrative around the gender pay gap. It's a false narrative aimed at attaining an impossible goal.
 
I am not upset by the "smallish" Biden White House median gender pay gap (which is larger than the US's and DC's median gender pay gap). I am upset with the Biden White House having a gender pay gap even as it promulgates the false narrative around the gender pay gap and believes gender pay equity is an ideal to strive for.



No, Republicans do not celebrate race and gender inequality, and neither do I. However, I do not believe in gender equity (that the two sexes could or should be the same on every conceivable measure) because I do not believe such a thing is biologically possible or even socially desirable. However, I do recall Ivanka Trump promulgating the same false pay gap narrative that the Biden White House does, and that was hypocrisy, too.



I have an interest in gender politics, especially gender politics in the West. The false pay gap narrative is as insidious in Australia as it is in America.

However, what I'm not interested in is yet another American with an imperialist attitude, "politely" wondering why I am interested in US politics. I reject this implicit attitude that I should stay in my lane.



You know, it's incredible the number of people on the left (on this board and elsewhere) who will accuse anybody on the right (or the perceived right, or the centre) of being mindless automatons and how effortlesslyblasé they are at dropping this insinuation. I listen to and read a variety of sources (including that of people whose ideology is the polar opposite of mine--I read the fucking Guardian for god's sake). But I would never and could never rely on a single figure with whom I agree without question. I have never met somebody else where I agree with all their opinions. Hell, I couldn't ever belong to a political party for the same reason--I can't imagine the hypocrisy of having to claim you believe something when you don't, because your opinion is at odds with the rest of your party.

So you're criticizing Biden for hypocrisy... while pretending to care about gender inequality to score a rhetorical point?

When did I pretend?
 
Not exactly true. I've wondered why you thought you knew/understood things about a country you've never visited better than people who have lived in that country all their lives do when they are trying to tell you you have something wrong. It's not hard to understand why you or anyone else in a different part of the world might get something wrong about life in the US. Certainly we misunderstand or don't understand a lot about other countries, either.

I never claimed to understand things about America better than Americans in some abstract sense. I simply do not fucking accept your epistemic fucking imperialism, and I am confident in my own numeracy to make claims about the difference between a mean and a median, even if they are means and medians about Americans.

Sure. I realize your confidence in your abilities to understand the differences between a mean and a median. You seem to have completely skipped the part upthread that discussed the usual use of mean and median when discussing earnings and demographic groups.


Your repeated mis-characterization and insult of me is noted. Again.

That you have repeatedly "politely" enquired about my interest in America as a non-American is not a mischaracterisaation. You also appear to be implying that anything I say about America is trumped by any American saying "nup".
 
That's 13.4% in Au vs 1% in the Biden administration. Why aren't you concerned that your Country is doing 13.4x worse than the Biden administration, if you are genuinely concerned about equality and equity?

Because I'm not concerned about "closing" the gender pay gap, which has a false narrative built around it. The Australian gender pay gap is 'worse' only if you believe in gender pay equity regardless of working circumstances.

Let's see the numbers.
So far you are offering only hot air. Where are your numbers, and where are your sources?
At least I provided numbers and sources.

Even if you had another "premise" to argue, it sounds to me like you're making a collectivist - actually communist - assertion that everyone should be paid the same, or equal numbers of people should be paid more than and less than some arbitrary amount that you can't provide.

Dude, you are just missing the point completely.
 
Researching the statistics of White House salaries is VERY low on my to-Do list, ...

The topic remains very low on my To_Do list, particularly since — as Metaphor seems to realize — there are many reasons for a slight gender "bias" even if avoiding that is a goal. Does anyone really think Jennifer Psaki would be replaced with a man, if that were the way to bring male pay up to "parity" with female?

The reason I chose to look further was to make this a case study into right-wing bullshit from "think" tanks like AEI and how such bullshit can fool even obviously intelligent people like Metaphor.

I started by clicking one of OP's links to get a list of 560 W.H. employees and their salaries. Almost the first thing I noticed was that there were a very large number of employees with exactly $80K for salary, and a large number with exactly $100k, with few in between. This gave me a hunch what might be happening. Otherwise I might not have pursued further.

I also noticed that 41 employees had salary of $0 — more on that below. There were also some salaries that were clearly "low" — prestigious Jeffrey Zients and Eugene Sperling get only $36k? A serious researcher would diagnose that, but I'm just on a lark.

I clicked another link to see what AEI Senior Fellow Mark J. Perry had to say on the subject. By the way, gender discrimination is a topic dear to Perry. According to Wikipedia "He claims to have filed over 100 complaints at universities across the US against affirmative action programs and female only scholarships for “illegal sex discrimination”, referring to himself as “one-man mission” to fix the programs. In June 2016 Perry filed a complaint with the Michigan Department of Civil Rights seeking the closure of Michigan State University's Women's Lounge, alleging that having a private place for women to study on campus discriminated against men, and was a violation of civil rights."

Anyway, Perry's report starts with
1. There are currently 518 paid employees listed in this year’s White House salary report: 304 female staffers and 214 male staffers. As you can see from the salary report, the White House provides employee names, positions, and salaries, but does not provide data on employees’ gender. Based on the names provided, the gender for the majority of employees is obvious based on first names (e.g., Thomas, Matthew, Maureen, Stephanie) and for those names that aren’t obvious (Nelvis, Casey, Machmud, Kelsey, Vy, etc.) I conducted basic Internet research that included Google searches (including news and image searches), Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn to determine gender.

He went to a lot of work (and guesswork) to determine gender! No mention of how he treated transsexuals?

560 employees reduced to 519 "paid" employees because 41 are shown with salary of $0. (How did Perry get from 519 to 518? I'll guess a clerical oversight by Mr. Perry given his busy schedule of perusing Twitter and Google Images to guess genders! Or more likely, supervising some AEI interns charged with this crucial research.)

The 41 unpaid employees include 28 males and 12 females (I'm guessing) so deleting them from the sample drove up male salary, whether median or mean, compared to female. (Does anyone doubt that Perry would have included them had that helped his argument?)

(Yes, 28+12 sum to only 40. I neglected to search Twitter or Google Images to guess the gender of Olatunde C. Johnson.)

I did go to the bother of guessing the gender of 519 paid employees. 252 seemed probably Female (F), 200 probably Male (M). and 67 Unknown (U). Comparing these subtotals with Perry's, we can assume that most of the U's were Female. For each of three groups (M, F and F+U) I computed the salary at various percentiles. ("Median" is synonymous with "50th percentile." @ Metaphor: Would you agree that showing several percentile salaries is more informative? Do you think Perry and AEI want to be "informative"?)
Code:
    Percentile    M       F      F+U
        90%    $155k   $155k   $155k
        80%    $130k   $130k   $130k
        70%    $110k   $110k   $110k
        60%    $104k   $100k   $100k
        55%    $100k   $100k   $100k
        50%    $100k    $80k    $80k
        45%     $80k    $80k    $80k
        40%     $80k    $80k    $80k
        30%     $77k    $62k    $62k
        20%     $62k    $62k    $62k
        10%     $58k    $48k    $48k
As you see, my "research" agrees with Perry's as to the 50%. BUT if we had chosen any other reasonable percentile — 40%, 45%, 55%, 60% — the peculiar bulge that Perry and Metaphor are so fond of would disappear!

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I show the 10th and 30th percentiles also, even though they may support the Perry-Metaphor thesis. Raise your hand if you think a "scholar" like Professor Perry would have been so bold, were the effect reversed.

Speaking of "scholars," do TFT'ers think Perry observed that other percentiles (40, 45, 55, 60, etc.) argued against his position? And therefore suppressed this obvious and more complete analysis? I think it's almost as likely that this Professor lacked the cognition or statistical know-how to derive the statistic in the first place!

By the way, this post contains a slightly subtle test.

N Creel qrsraqre zvtug fnl:
"Fvapr gur zrqvna znl or n zrnfher cersreerq ol 'yvorenyf,' bayl vg znggref be fubhyq or choyvfurq."

Nalbar znxvat guvf pynvz vf rvgure irel hapbzsbegnoyr jvgu fgngvfgvpf be vf vagryyrpghnyyl qvfubarfg.

 
YAAAaaawn.

I'm "missing the point entirely", I'm numerically ignorant, I don't understand what inequity is... Meanwhile neither J8 nor Meta provides sources for the numbers they bandy abut as if they were freshly pulled from their nether orifice.

I absolutely understand what a median is and what a mean, or average is. What I don't understand is this seemingly neurotic fixation on one to the exclusion of the other.
Sure, the mean can be warped by a few people making vast sums while the majority wallows in slave-wage poverty. The median can be similarly warped by discrete groupings of moderate and very low or very high wages. Fixation on one without considering the other, bespeaks an unwillingness to confront the reality of the situation. So when we get vacuous assertions with no numerical or source information, and accusations of "missing the point" without any concise expression of the fabled "point", it is hard to believe that the thesis of Biden's poor performance is offered in anything like good faith. This thread was initiated to demean and criticize the Biden whitehouse, and in order to do so, must assiduously ignore the previous administration's record as well as the records of the main complainant's Country.

LET'S SEE THE NUMBERS

They're NOT 'beside the point". If there is a point, which I now doubt.

So you're criticizing Biden for hypocrisy... while pretending to care about gender inequality to score a rhetorical point?

When did I pretend?

Exactly. You've made it rather obvious that other than as a blunt instrument with which to attack the lib'ruls, you don't give a fuck about the plight of the "losers".
 
Sure. I realize your confidence in your abilities to understand the differences between a mean and a median. You seem to have completely skipped the part upthread that discussed the usual use of mean and median when discussing earnings and demographic groups.


Your repeated mis-characterization and insult of me is noted. Again.

That you have repeatedly "politely" enquired about my interest in America as a non-American is not a mischaracterisaation. You also appear to be implying that anything I say about America is trumped by any American saying "nup".

I certainly do not believe that any American has more or better to say about the US than you do.

I do, however, believe in expertise and have seen you absolutely disregard the expertise of some posters when it contradicts your stated opinion or interpretation of data.

Let me put it a different way: Were I to ask a question about computers or computer programming, I would listen to and be interested in hearing what any of the posters here have to say about whatever issue I inquired about--regardless of their nationality or the country they were working from. Same about a lot of other subjects. Discussions regarding legalization of prostitution with people in other countries have prompted me to look at the ways other countries handle prostitution. At a conference, I happened to strike up a conversation with a climate expert from Sweden and I was both fascinated and alarmed by what he had to say. I've read with great interest what posters in other countries had to say about how their health care works and the same with regards to other systems of education. Except in the broadest ways, I understand much less about other countries' political systems.

Of course any US system is up for fair criticism by anyone from any country, period. Or the US as a nation or a people or whatever. Anyone may disagree with any other poster about anything. Certainly, I think that posters other than me make fair points--excellent points, actually. This applies to you as well. I even understand why the US dominates a lot of discussion here.

My difficulty comes in when someone dogmatically digs their heels in and insists that they know or understand something about a system in the US when it is pretty obvious to me that they are misunderstanding something key to understanding the system. FFS, if I were to start to criticize Australia's education system or health care system, I would quickly be out of my depth in certain details and it would be obvious to anyone who was familiar with Australia's health care or education system. And to me, as well. Even though I've spent some bit of time talking with people from Australia about these subjects and Americans who have lived in Australia as well.

Nor do I think that Biden is beyond criticism! I am profoundly grateful that he was elected rather than the other guy but Biden wasn't in my top 4 candidates and I was extremely upset when he belatedly decided to join the race. The most obvious reason is that he's too old in my books, as are Trump and Warren (who seems much more vigorous than any of the male candidates near her age), who was my favorite candidate. Sanders never made my list because of his age, although there was enough to make me not want him as a candidate if he had been 20 years younger. Only part of the age issue is age/health related. In the case of Biden, I am well aware of that generation's ingrained attitudes as a generation and I have been concerned about whether or not Biden would transcend some of those attitudes. Because Trump's administration so understaffed various parts of the federal government--which was a significant issue with regards to how well those agencies worked---and because Trump so obviously had little understanding or expertise in any aspect of the office he held or the workings of the federal government and heavily relied on those who would reflect back to him his own opinions, I think most Americans expected and are somewhat relieved that Biden pulled heavily from those who worked with him in the Obama administration. I've also been thrilled to see that he's expanded far beyond those who have been around the White House and has made a point to include people with different perspectives. Yeah, I'm happy he's included more women and more persons of color. It's about damn time.

I am thrilled that Biden defeated Trump and I believe that much of the world agrees. I am fairly happy with his performance so far, although it has not yet been 6 months. I have no concerns that he will not give me plenty to be angry about over the next few years.

I don't give a rat's ass whether you like the US, Biden, US politics, the US system of education or health care or whether you agree with me about any of it. Any of that is open for discussion!
Name calling and mischaracterization --not so much.

I don't care if you like me or agree with me or do not--which is quite fortunate.

With regards to me pointing out that someone with actual expertise in how means and median are used in similar discussions of wages and demographics and trends, etc. it matters not one tiny bit WHO that someone was or what country they come from. Every discipline has its conventions! That makes arguing about the details more productive because everyone is talking about the same thing. Nationality had nothing to do with anything I wrote in this thread. Someone who has some expertise in labor economics weighed in on how means and median are typically used. THAT is what mattered to me. Not that poster's nationality or yours.

As I've said before, my husband is an economist at a university and a fair number of our friends are economists. Because of this, I've actually heard of and am familiar with the AEI and am aware of the shift in how it's regarded among at least some of those economists. Just as I know more than I care to about soccer/ and university politics, how economic policy affects (insert aspect of society) and other boring stuff. Basically, I know enough to ask someone who knows more or where to read more if I am interested in learning more. Same thing with carpentry, plumbing, house wiring, why my washing machine misbehaves, etc.
 
I've decided to repost this table for emphasis.

Code:
    Percentile    M       F      F+U
        90%    $155k   $155k   $155k
        80%    $130k   $130k   $130k
        70%    $110k   $110k   $110k
        60%    $104k   $100k   $100k
        55%    $100k   $100k   $100k
        50%    $100k    $80k    $80k
        45%     $80k    $80k    $80k
        40%     $80k    $80k    $80k
        30%     $77k    $62k    $62k
        20%     $62k    $62k    $62k
        10%     $58k    $48k    $48k

To me, this table demonstrates clearly that the peculiar "disparity" bulge at 50th percentile is happenstance. The AEI analysis therefore becomes, whether intentionally so or not, malarkey.

I am curious whether Perry's supporter(s) will acknowledge this.
 
He went to a lot of work (and guesswork) to determine gender! No mention of how he treated transsexuals?

Although he uses the term 'gender', he was probably referring to sex, since gender identity is a thought in a person's head.

The 41 unpaid employees include 28 males and 12 females (I'm guessing) so deleting them from the sample drove up male salary, whether median or mean, compared to female. (Does anyone doubt that Perry would have included them had that helped his argument?)

Please don't project your own suspicions onto everybody else.

I did go to the bother of guessing the gender of 519 paid employees. 252 seemed probably Female (F), 200 probably Male (M). and 67 Unknown (U). Comparing these subtotals with Perry's, we can assume that most of the U's were Female. For each of three groups (M, F and F+U) I computed the salary at various percentiles. ("Median" is synonymous with "50th percentile." @ Metaphor: Would you agree that showing several percentile salaries is more informative? Do you think Perry and AEI want to be "informative"?)

Whether something is informative or not does not depend merely on providing (more) information (or at any rate, more data). Lawyers sometimes use discovery to serve an overwhelming amount of documents to the opposition, not to inform but to make information harder to obtain.

As you see, my "research" agrees with Perry's as to the 50%. BUT if we had chosen any other reasonable percentile — 40%, 45%, 55%, 60% — the peculiar bulge that Perry and Metaphor are so fond of would disappear!

I've never seen someone use the 45%ile for anything in any context. But in terms of the gender pay gap, the median is used.

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I show the 10th and 30th percentiles also, even though they may support the Perry-Metaphor thesis. Raise your hand if you think a "scholar" like Professor Perry would have been so bold, were the effect reversed.

The median is a measure of centre, and it is special. It is the best representation of the typical earnings. I mean, why do you think the gender pay gap uses measures of centre and not the 90th%ile?

Speaking of "scholars," do TFT'ers think Perry observed that other percentiles (40, 45, 55, 60, etc.) argued against his position? And therefore suppressed this obvious and more complete analysis? I think it's almost as likely that this Professor lacked the cognition or statistical know-how to derive the statistic in the first place!

I think you need to make a case that these other percentiles make any sense at all to use.

By the way, this post contains a slightly subtle test.

N Creel qrsraqre zvtug fnl:
"Fvapr gur zrqvna znl or n zrnfher cersreerq ol 'yvorenyf,' bayl vg znggref be fubhyq or choyvfurq."

Nalbar znxvat guvf pynvz vf rvgure irel hapbzsbegnoyr jvgu fgngvfgvpf be vf vagryyrpghnyyl qvfubarfg.


V'z fher guvf znqr frafr gb lbh ng gur gvzr.
 
YAAAaaawn.

I'm "missing the point entirely", I'm numerically ignorant, I don't understand what inequity is... Meanwhile neither J8 nor Meta provides sources for the numbers they bandy abut as if they were freshly pulled from their nether orifice.

I provided my source in the first line of the first post.

I absolutely understand what a median is and what a mean, or average is. What I don't understand is this seemingly neurotic fixation on one to the exclusion of the other.
Sure, the mean can be warped by a few people making vast sums while the majority wallows in slave-wage poverty. The median can be similarly warped by discrete groupings of moderate and very low or very high wages. Fixation on one without considering the other, bespeaks an unwillingness to confront the reality of the situation. So when we get vacuous assertions with no numerical or source information, and accusations of "missing the point" without any concise expression of the fabled "point", it is hard to believe that the thesis of Biden's poor performance is offered in anything like good faith. This thread was initiated to demean and criticize the Biden whitehouse, and in order to do so, must assiduously ignore the previous administration's record as well as the records of the main complainant's Country.

You are simply wrong about what the point of the thread was. I'm in a good position to know because I wrote the OP. The point was to highlight the idiotic wrongness of the gender pay gap narrative.

Exactly. You've made it rather obvious that other than as a blunt instrument with which to attack the lib'ruls, you don't give a fuck about the plight of the "losers".

What losers? You assume that a gender pay gap must imply winners and losers? Why?
 
Swammerdami’s illuminating analysis of the data illustrates the problem of drawing a conclusion about the distribution if a population from a single measurement. It makes the accusation of hypocrisy on the part of the Biden administration on this issue hard to maintain by anyone with intellectual integrity. It makes it painfully clear that Mr. Perry is an ideological hack who gives support to the old adage “Figures don’t lie, but liars will figure.”

The rhetoric if the OP makes risible The claim that it is an attack on gender pay gap arguments.
 
The point was to highlight the idiotic wrongness of the gender pay gap narrative.

Ok, so now you're saying there is no meaningful gender pay gap, and if there is, it's Biden's fault.
While the other side of your mouth laments the horrible inequity wrought upon Whitehouse employees...
Oooookay, Meta.

Swammerdami’s illuminating analysis of the data illustrates the problem of drawing a conclusion about the distribution if a population from a single measurement. It makes the accusation of hypocrisy on the part of the Biden administration on this issue hard to maintain by anyone with intellectual integrity. It makes it painfully clear that Mr. Perry is an ideological hack who gives support to the old adage “Figures don’t lie, but liars will figure.”

The rhetoric if the OP makes risible The claim that it is an attack on gender pay gap arguments.

Exactly.
 
You are simply wrong about what the point of the thread was. I'm in a good position to know because I wrote the OP. The point was to highlight the idiotic wrongness of the gender pay gap narrative.

Ya know [MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION]; , here's a problem.
I agree with you on this part. I agree that to an enormous extent the "pay gap" is now mostly about women choosing their own priorities like men do. But they tend to prioritize differently from men. They tend to prioritize flexibility, secure working environment, transportable skills and other things more than men. The tradeoff is lower income. The wage gap is primarily the collective choices women make compared to the ones men make.

But that wasn't at all clear in the OP. You knew what the point was, but even I(who agrees with you) didn't see anything like that. Given your OP history, like Cornell and Vermont and such, you kinda need to be very clear.

Tom
 
You are simply wrong about what the point of the thread was. I'm in a good position to know because I wrote the OP. The point was to highlight the idiotic wrongness of the gender pay gap narrative.

Ya know [MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION]; , here's a problem.
I agree with you on this part. I agree that to an enormous extent the "pay gap" is now mostly about women choosing their own priorities like men do. But they tend to prioritize differently from men. They tend to prioritize flexibility, secure working environment, transportable skills and other things more than men. The tradeoff is lower income. The wage gap is primarily the collective choices women make compared to the ones men make.

But that wasn't at all clear in the OP. You knew what the point was, but even I(who agrees with you) didn't see anything like that. Given your OP history, like Cornell and Vermont and such, you kinda need to be very clear.

Tom

That's only part of the story.

Women DO tend to value flexibilty, etc. At least women with children do, or those who are planning to have children. Why is this less a concern for men?

Traditionally, women were compensated at lower rates than men were because they were women. Likewise, professions that are heavily female staffed tend to be compensated at lower rates, despite requiring as much or more education, skill, etc. WHY?

There is a current nursing shortage--has been for years. WHY? This is a case where the obvious market solutions (higher compensation, more flexibility, etc). has not been instituted to encourage more nurses although the nursing shortage has been ongoing for years. WHY?.
 
You are simply wrong about what the point of the thread was. I'm in a good position to know because I wrote the OP. The point was to highlight the idiotic wrongness of the gender pay gap narrative.

Ya know [MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION]; , here's a problem.
I agree with you on this part. I agree that to an enormous extent the "pay gap" is now mostly about women choosing their own priorities like men do. But they tend to prioritize differently from men. They tend to prioritize flexibility, secure working environment, transportable skills and other things more than men. The tradeoff is lower income. The wage gap is primarily the collective choices women make compared to the ones men make.

But that wasn't at all clear in the OP. You knew what the point was, but even I(who agrees with you) didn't see anything like that. Given your OP history, like Cornell and Vermont and such, you kinda need to be very clear.

Tom

That's only part of the story.

Women DO tend to value flexibilty, etc. At least women with children do, or those who are planning to have children. Why is this less a concern for men?

Traditionally, women were compensated at lower rates than men were because they were women. Likewise, professions that are heavily female staffed tend to be compensated at lower rates, despite requiring as much or more education, skill, etc. WHY?

There is a current nursing shortage--has been for years. WHY? This is a case where the obvious market solutions (higher compensation, more flexibility, etc). has not been instituted to encourage more nurses although the nursing shortage has been ongoing for years. WHY?.

You are responding to my post by asking me why women choose differently than men, or why women "traditionally" got different results.

Why are you asking me those questions? Why not ask women, instead of an egalitarian gay male?

I'm pretty sure I know why. Feel free to give me another explanation.
Tom
 
As you see, my "research" agrees with Perry's as to the 50%. BUT if we had chosen any other reasonable percentile — 40%, 45%, 55%, 60% — the peculiar bulge that Perry and Metaphor are so fond of would disappear!

I've never seen someone use the 45%ile for anything in any context. But in terms of the gender pay gap, the median is used.
...
The median is a measure of centre, and it is special. It is the best representation of the typical earnings. I mean, why do you think the gender pay gap uses measures of centre and not the 90th%ile?

Speaking of "scholars," do TFT'ers think Perry observed that other percentiles (40, 45, 55, 60, etc.) argued against his position? And therefore suppressed this obvious and more complete analysis? I think it's almost as likely that this Professor lacked the cognition or statistical know-how to derive the statistic in the first place!

I think you need to make a case that these other percentiles make any sense at all to use.

Good! We have reduced the question to a straightforward one involving only intuition and grasp of statistics and mathematics. (Unless your claim is that gender pay gap is a special case where one must first discard all one's knowledge of relevant math and statistics.)

Swammi said:
The Board has several posters with excellent grasp and intuition of mathematics. Bomb#20 comes to mind (not to diminish others among the board's mathematicians).

Will you nominate Bomb#20 or some other mathematician to arbitrate our dispute (which now seems to be about statistics, not politics)?
This was off-topic. Still I'm a relative newcomer and am curious who the Board's best systems analysts are. Messrs Ipetrich and Bomb are my nominees. Who else? I nominate Mr. Bomb because I've seen a number of his correct analyses and don't recall an incorrect one. (I think he failed to admit that his claim about pi assumed what it was trying to prove, to wit that pi is a Normal Number, but that error, if any, is irrelevant to any practical engineering.)

Swammi said:
I want to ask the nominee whether, in the presented context, the 50th percentile value has some intrinsic mathematical importance that would not be possessed by, say, the average of the 45th and 55th percentile values.

OK?

Is gambling allowed on this Board?
RUDE! Knock it off.

Still I am proud that my brief effort with the data found a fatal (or at least fatalish) flaw in Professor Perry's argument.[
Start another thread for details, e.g. raw data./I] Unless of course, Metaphor is right, and we should ignore the equalities across a very broad range except for a very thin slab near 50% ! (Like the Butterfly ballots almost 21 years ago, Serendipity worked against the truth-tellers!)


And this is sincere. You will earn much respect, Mr. Metaphor, if you can study the posted table and admit that,
Yes, the insistence solely on 50% — single parameter no less — gives an exaggerated look at the more general statistic — perhaps a smoothed median! BTW I myself have witnessed successful solutions and for a strong non-trivial objective like this at least two statistical parameters would be used.

. I wonder if some staffer charged with assigning ranks and salaries, tried to hit a jackpot! Perry's Bulge at 50% is rather weird. Why not the bulge at 56% instead? Or whatever? Is it an anomaly of the algorithm used in hiring while meeting a pay equality objective. OTOH, that the data has this specific peculiar shape MIGHT, just might be evidence of sabotage!

Or, sincerely, — maybe you, Metaphor, have good math intuition — forget our dispute and study the table I showed without regard to its application. Can you understand the point I'm making about the "bulge" near 50% being like happenstance? (I am rooting for you!)
 
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I want to ask the nominee whether, in the presented context, the 50th percentile value has some intrinsic mathematical importance

I’m sure I’m as confused as accused, because it seems to me that there is nothing magical about the median. It doesn’t reveal anything about real life distributions if, in real life, earnings around the median are vastly discrepant from or much rarer than the highs or the lows.
Is that wrong? Enlighten me, please!
 
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The ranked wages from 46th to 54th percentile show $20k higher pay (specifically $100k instead of $80k) for males;
But this is against a background from 28% to 99% of exact equality.

I do not claim that the Perry Bulge, or whatever you call it, is non-existent. I simply claim that the Bulge should be treated as exaggerating the specific median measure: don't treat this stat with its full $20k weight. (Or, as alluded earlier, use a multi-parameter model.)
 
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That's only part of the story.

Women DO tend to value flexibilty, etc. At least women with children do, or those who are planning to have children. Why is this less a concern for men?

Traditionally, women were compensated at lower rates than men were because they were women. Likewise, professions that are heavily female staffed tend to be compensated at lower rates, despite requiring as much or more education, skill, etc. WHY?

There is a current nursing shortage--has been for years. WHY? This is a case where the obvious market solutions (higher compensation, more flexibility, etc). has not been instituted to encourage more nurses although the nursing shortage has been ongoing for years. WHY?.

You are responding to my post by asking me why women choose differently than men, or why women "traditionally" got different results.

Why are you asking me those questions? Why not ask women, instead of an egalitarian gay male?

I'm pretty sure I know why. Feel free to give me another explanation.
Tom

The questions were in response to your post but,as with any other post on this forum, open to discussion by anyone who chooses to engage.
 
Why are you asking me those questions? Why not ask women, instead of an egalitarian gay male?

I'm pretty sure I know why. Feel free to give me another explanation.

I was pretty sure before. Now it's even more evident.
Tom
 
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