The horrible horrible world of sports

[DrZoidberg]

It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

Yeah, I get tired of reading how I don't work because I think inertia is a poor excuse for poor behavior. .

 

[Toni]

It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

I guess I suffered under the delusion that sports was a meritocracy, if an imperfect one. Also the delusion that human beings are supposed to be decent to one another, at least in public, and save their childish prejudices for private and at least recognize that it is wrong to mistreat people because of their race, sex, gender, gender identity, etc.

Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone. Without realizing it or without intention, I tend to revert to the accent and colloquialisms of my childhood when I am with family and friends from that area. However, I learned, as apparently so did the people I grew up with, that certain words and phrases have strongly negative racial overtones and while they were commonly used in my childhood, once I realized what those words and phrases meant, I stopped using them. People can and do learn and change their behavior, adapt to situations.

When I worked in a fairly international setting, I was always very careful about how I spoke to ensure that co-workers and others for whom English was a second language could understand me and not be confused by accent or colloquialisms. Among colleagues in my branch of science, I use certain terms that I wouldn't use at home and refrain from discussing things that I know would upset family ---or that would break confidentiality. In a professional setting, I would never swear, for example and I am careful to maintain a professional demeanor, no matter how another person is behaving.

Regardless of setting or situation, I don't use racist or sexist language, because I think it's wrong, hurtful, demeaning and ignorant and not reflective of my values or opinions or decent human behavior.

Even children speak differently among each other and among their close friends than they do with parents and teachers.

If children are expected to know how to speak with respect to others, why cannot sports figures do the same?

Racism and sexism have no place in sports.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.

I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.

I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

 

[Toni]

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.

I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes, it's 'just sports.' Athletes getting millions of dollars to entertain millions of people.

Athletes with a significant chance of making a career of selling orange juice or shoes. Meaning that they will get paid to share their opinions BECAUSE they can be expected to reach and influence a large audience with their opinions.

Who WANT their opinions on chewing tobacco held in high esteem and altering people's spending habits, but their comments on race and gender should be ignored because it's 'just sports.'

They have a larger platform to shape opinion with than some politicians. They do not get to have it both ways jus tbecause they're 'dumb jocks.'

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.

I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports.

And to answer that question, we go to a visibly angry Jackie Robinson, who is holding a metal baseball bat in a... *splat*

Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

They can be whatever they want to. Why are we not allowed to have opinions? Why is it in Dr. Zoidberg's utopia, only assholes matter (#OAM)?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

So are we drawing the line at beliefs, verbal abuse, physical abuse?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone.

Not everyone.
I'm thinking of a candidate for President who was filmed admitting to bragging about sexual assault.
He dismissed criticism based on the conversation being 'locker room talk.' The direct implication being that if such behavior was tolerated in certain enclaves, he should be forgiven for using outside of such enclaves. For getting caught.

This is not uncommon. many people defend certain words or phrases by claiming it was acceptable somewhere else, such as the past, the distant past, the less PC past, the military, sports, seminary, or 'locker rooms.'
Well, so was slavery and wife-beating. Grow up or shut up.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

 

[Toni]

Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone.

Not everyone.
I'm thinking of a candidate for President who was filmed admitting to bragging about sexual assault.
He dismissed criticism based on the conversation being 'locker room talk.' The direct implication being that if such behavior was tolerated in certain enclaves, he should be forgiven for using outside of such enclaves. For getting caught.

This is not uncommon. many people defend certain words or phrases by claiming it was acceptable somewhere else, such as the past, the distant past, the less PC past, the military, sports, seminary, or 'locker rooms.'
Well, so was slavery and wife-beating. Grow up or shut up.

Yeah, he was allowed to act and speak that way. If he faced negative i sequences: money and attention dried up, he is t dumb enough not to modify his public behavior. But he apparently rly appeals to those who think that being rich and famous gives you license to treat others like dirt and disrespectful language is merely being ‘authentic.’

 

[Keith&Co.]

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yeah, he was allowed to act and speak that way. If he faced negative i sequences: money and attention dried up, he is t dumb enough not to modify his public behavior. But he apparently rly appeals to those who think that being rich and famous gives you license to treat others like dirt and disrespectful language is merely being ‘authentic.’

Well, Florida Man is just the Ur-Lord of such people. Those that insist "I should be permitted to do this here because i am permitted to do it there." (or 'then' or 'among them.')

My grandmother grew up in Florida a zillion years ago. She insisted, almost to the say she met my fiancé, that black people preferred to be called 'Darkies,' because that's what she was taught to call them in the Dark Ages.

Papa John's founder kept complaining that he couldn't use the n-word the way KFC's Colonel used to. "HE got away with it, why can't I?"

If there's any place set up where it's safe to be sexist, racist, etc. then certain people will try to use that to justify the same behavior farther afield.

 

[funinspace]

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.

I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

I'm with Keith here, other than I have a BS degree in EE. However, at least in the early 1980's the engineering department provided no curriculum to create academic credentials to help in this regard. From what I gather, it seems that most engineers are not the most adept at political correctness, yet I seemed to have little trouble not inserting my foot in my mouth during my professional career. As Keith already suggested rocket science nor deep pondering of Plato is required to treat others with respect. It is a pretty simple formula...though Christian nationalism seems to be more and more confused, at least in the US.

And at least in a few organized sports, they are still allowed to act like adolescents when on the field as they get into fights. I can imagine if I punched or tackled a college as he pissed me off; some how I don't think I'd have a job the next day. Yet football stars get a slap on their pinky for their childish behavior...these guys are already coddled more than enough...

 

[Emily Lake]

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.

It saddens me that I can't tell if you're serious or not.

 

[bilby]

The coaching staff and players of the England football team have recently demonstrated a far better command of sensitivity and inclusiveness than their nation's government.

I don't think that sport is the problem.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

Really? I think that says more about your assumptions than mine.

Having any demands on deological purity in sports is silly. How about keeping all politics out of sports? How can that be a bad thing?

 

[Swammerdami]

The coaching staff and players of the England football team have recently demonstrated a far better command of sensitivity and inclusiveness than their nation's government.

I don't think that sport is the problem.

And, IIRC, Colin Kaepernick was well accepted by his fellow athletes, black or white. It was the Trump-Hannity-Carlson ilk that were implicitly racist when they attacked him.

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.

It saddens me that I can't tell if you're serious or not.

It also saddens me a little that YOU can't tell Moogly and Keith are being sarcastic.


Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?

You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?