DBT
Contributor
Where do you think the desire to move your arm comes from?
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Features
The human mind
- Thread starter Speakpigeon
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fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
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Again you try to mask things. Please distinguish between urge, thirst, and desire.. This should be interesting.
Then there is the distinction between urge and intention even though readiness precedes them both. Libit wasn't studying intention he was studying whether preparation for movement signalled as readiness to act preceded urge similar to what was found in Cannon-Bard structured sequence or followed James-Lang urge preceded readiness structured sequence.
I believe he was pretty sure the Cannon Bard paradigm extended to cognitive neural activity. Only if urge (intention) precedes neural readiness can autonomy be supported. It wasn't. So down goes all that 2500 to 250 years ago fiction about the distinction between man intentional God and other animal machine.
The distinction isn't reflexive versus intentional its between unintentional and intentional
Then there is the distinction between urge and intention even though readiness precedes them both. Libit wasn't studying intention he was studying whether preparation for movement signalled as readiness to act preceded urge similar to what was found in Cannon-Bard structured sequence or followed James-Lang urge preceded readiness structured sequence.
I believe he was pretty sure the Cannon Bard paradigm extended to cognitive neural activity. Only if urge (intention) precedes neural readiness can autonomy be supported. It wasn't. So down goes all that 2500 to 250 years ago fiction about the distinction between man intentional God and other animal machine.
The distinction isn't reflexive versus intentional its between unintentional and intentional
untermensche
Contributor
When the sensation of thirst reaches a threshold the mind decides how it will satisfy it. There are many ways to do it.
If the cup is there the mind just tells the brain to move the arm and get it if that is the choice.
The desire to pick up the cup flows from the mind's choice of what it wants.
DBT
Contributor
You are saying that the mind is an independent observer of the activity of the brain and that at some point it decides to intervene using it's own independent will? Is that correct?
untermensche
Contributor
DBT
Contributor
That's not what I said, or how it works.....you forget the little detail of organs sending signals to the brain, which interprets a certain signal as being hunger, another as thirst, another as a stomach ache, etc, etc...bring this to conscious attention in order to take action.
Not without a brain that makes it happen.
The brain is creating mind - which is a conscious mental representation of the world, an experience of environment and self - in order to interact, respond, experience and survive.
untermensche
Contributor
To experience means one thing experiencing some other thing that is not itself.
The mind is that which experiences all things.
How it arises is totally unknown.
What it is is totally unknown.
What it does is known. It experiences. It is that which experiences. And we know it experiences created products, not the world, because it experiences color.
The mind is that which experiences all things.
How it arises is totally unknown.
What it is is totally unknown.
What it does is known. It experiences. It is that which experiences. And we know it experiences created products, not the world, because it experiences color.
fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
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It's pretty clear that the being, not the mind, experiences. The being being the total physical, chemical, and neural suites of one. At least such would be interesting rather than a word play game such as creating object fiction like mind. No way to rescue Socrates sir.
untermensche
Contributor
What is clear is the being uses an autonomous mind to decide which ideas it will hold and which it will reject.
Some desire to just abandon reason and follow the dictates of Christianity or neuroscience but in so doing they have expressed their autonomy.
Every attempt you make to convince me your ideas have more truth is an expression of an autonomous mind.
Some desire to just abandon reason and follow the dictates of Christianity or neuroscience but in so doing they have expressed their autonomy.
Every attempt you make to convince me your ideas have more truth is an expression of an autonomous mind.
DBT
Contributor
You keep saying 'autonomous mind' when all evidence supports brain generated mind.
You persist in ignoring means of production.
'Your' conscious mind cannot access the underlying production activity carried out by the brain, which gives you/conscious mind the impression of ultimate agency, a sense of autonomy where no autonomy actually exists.
It is a feedback loop that's missing information input from the production side of conscious brain activity.
That is the point where your idea of autonomous mind goes wrong.
fromderinside
Mazzie Daius
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We just went through a chapter where obvious chemically derived impulses generate urge (Cannon et al). Still you hold to something called mind for autonomy which is about as sketchy a construct as has ever been put forth. Failure to account for variables is not a demonstration of a machine driving autonomous behavior. Why can't you get it that if there is autonomy, something you've not yet demonstrated in any way, it is much more globally originated .
Obvious predispositions to behave this way or that are programmed into the individual, activations of one sort or another originate locally and systemically, as evidence of chemical and underlying arousal and automating nervous system development illustrate. Evidence for modifiable local controls arise in most responding and effecting components of the behaving animal. Clearly if there is any capacity for autonomy it is embodied in the genome as expressed.
You have already cut yourself off at the pass by insisting the mind isn't physical but rather emergent -and as I've remarked emergence is counter to the general precepts of physics. Why not consider a totality of behavior which seems to suggest some level of apparent autotomy.
It isn't clearly, but such thinking isn't foreign to even those of us who pretend to claim some experience in science.
untermensche
Contributor
The mind is that which acts on urges.
And the mind is that which autonomously decides to not act on an urge.
It forces the body to not eat the ice cream today.
And the mind is that which autonomously decides to not act on an urge.
It forces the body to not eat the ice cream today.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
The brain creates the “mind” and it creates the “things for the mind to experience.”
As previously noted, you’ve fucked yourself.
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untermensche
Contributor
As has been explained to you to no avail saying the brain creates both that which experiences and the things it experiences is not problematic in the least.
The brain also controls respiration which has nothing to do with consciousness.
Assigning multiple functions to the brain is not problematic in itself.
The brain also controls respiration which has nothing to do with consciousness.
Assigning multiple functions to the brain is not problematic in itself.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
Strawman.
Once again, you’ve fucked yourself and now you’ve stuffed some straw to try to cover the wet spot. Bad form.
untermensche
Contributor
You are deluded.
Since you have nothing of any substance to say, good luck.
Your kind needs it.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
Pathetic evasion. You just keep digging yourself in deeper, doubling-down on vitriol instead of addressing the fact that you’ve completely eviscerated your own argument.
If the brain creates the “things” the “mind” experiences, that would necessarily include the following two scenarios:
Mind Experience Package 1: ordering the brain to move the hand to pick up the cup.
Mind Experience Package 2: hand moving to pick up the cup.
Mind Experience Package 2: hand moving to pick up the cup.
You agree that it is the brain that creates MEP2 for the “mind” to experience, but you are just desperately trying to avoid the fact that it must also be true that the brain creates MEP1 as well.
But in MEP1, the “mind” is not in fact ordering the brain to do anything; it is the brain creating the illusion—the experience—of the “mind” ordering the brain to do something.
What you want is for MEP1 to be something that the “mind” experiences without the brain creating that experience, but you can’t ever get there. This is, again, why you so desperately try to fiat the notion of autonomy and/or distinctness, but you can’t ever do anything more than just petulantly demand that it be so. It just must be or else your entire position collapses.
Which is, of course, why your entire position collapses.
untermensche
Contributor
All you have said is you don't like the fact that the mind is multifaceted with more than one function.
You have said no more than that.
What you don't like is meaningless.
When you get to the point where you are talking about more than what you don't like you will begin to say something.
You have said no more than that.
What you don't like is meaningless.
When you get to the point where you are talking about more than what you don't like you will begin to say something.
Koyaanisqatsi
Veteran Member
Yet another pathetic strawman.
The brain creates the experience of “mind ordering brain to move hand to pick up cup” for the “mind” to experience.
You can’t avoid it.
untermensche
Contributor
The brain creates the cup for the brain to experience.
And the only way to pick it up is by ordering the brain to do it.
Try it.
The hand will not move without the mental command.
You lie if you say it will.