The human mind

[steve_bank]

If mind is separate and distinct from body, what is it made up of and how does it work?

It is connected to the body, connected to the brain, not separate.

It is something that arises from some activity in the brain but that includes a lot of things. Is the blood flow a necessary component? You won't have a mind without it.

The mind is a product of activity it is not the activity.

We are only at a stage where we can observe the activity.

We have no idea how or which activity is creating the mind.

n
So you are saying that mid is a function of brain and is not independent of brain?

Mind has no reality other than chemical activity in the brain, yes or no?

 

[steve_bank]

You will have to explain precisely what an autonomous mind means.

That will lead going over to the lengthy thread on free will.

I do not think we are capable of making a completely unconditioned response. Freedom of choice is not autonomous mind.

 

[DBT]

We have no idea what the body is or what the mind is.

All we can do is say that our experiences are true or they are delusions.

But to say they are delusions means nothing can be believed.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you say here is right.....how does it help establish your claim for autonomy of mind?

Can you explain?

If the mind does not have autonomy then talk of "belief" is meaningless.

Talk of "logic" is meaningless. Talk of "justice" is meaningless.

If a mind is not free to decide what to believe, what is logical, or what is just then the judgements are meaningless.

If the human mind does not have the freedom to design a car or building or paint a picture that has never existed then those things could not exist.

Autonomy is a given if the world makes sense.

That is why it is a given in the real world where people are punished for their decisions.

You only punish that which could have done differently.

What you mean is the intelligence to design or create, not autonomy.


Some minds do not have that capacity.

You are conflating the terms and references in an attempt to justify your claim of autonomy of mind.

If punishment works as a deterrent, it works because others see the consequences of taking the option that results in punishment, which is intelligence, not autonomy of mind.


Capacity, the ability to design, create or make rational decisions is not determined by the mind, but the brain.

 

[untermensche]

That’s not “autonomy.” That’s “choice.” Being able to choose between different actions prior to making them only requires the ability to abstract and “role play” with an analogue of the individual superimposed into those abstractions.

To make a choice about ideas either requires some genetic mechanism that somehow knows about ideas that have never existed before or an autonomous mind that understands even new ideas.

 

[untermensche]

If the mind does not have autonomy then talk of "belief" is meaningless.

Talk of "logic" is meaningless. Talk of "justice" is meaningless.

If a mind is not free to decide what to believe, what is logical, or what is just then the judgements are meaningless.

That may or may not be true, for any given definition of "meaningless", but it's not an argument about the state of the world. There's no a priori reason to assume that it is meaningful.

Nobody ever said the world had meaning.

What is being said here is ideas have meaning. And to use ideas in a meaningful way requires an understanding of the ideas and the autonomy to decide which ideas are good and which are not.

If the human mind does not have the freedom to design a car or building or paint a picture that has never existed then those things could not exist.

That's not an argument, that's a proclamation.

Arguments are made up of proclamations.

Plate tectonics creates ridges, coast lines, wind erosion dune patterns that have "never existed" too - every day.

Those do not involve planning.

To plan something new and then to build what you plan requires autonomy.

Planning is an autonomous activity. It is creating the future with the will.

Autonomy is a given if the world makes sense.

The world is under no obligation to "make sense" (to you).

What a miserably worthless platitude. And a total non sequitur.

The mind gives meaning to the world.

With a mind the world does have meaning.

If the mind has autonomy.

If autonomy is a delusion then there is no meaning anywhere.

That is why it is a given in the real world where people are punished for their decisions.

You only punish that which could have done differently.

If that is so (and there are philosophies that consider the goal of punishment to be primarily determent, in which case it doesn't follow because with a change of pull- and push factors, someone who could not have done differently could maybe only have done differently), it shows at best that punishment is irrational.

How do you deter something that does not have the freedom to decide?

The notion of autonomy is not so easily waved away. It is an intertwined part of human society.

Every single society that initiated a justice system and punished people for sins or crimes has totally accepted the idea of human autonomy.

If scientists actually believed this bullshit they would be up in arms and demanding radical change.

But since they don't it must be assumed they have autonomously decided for themselves it is really total bullshit.

 

[untermensche]

If the mind does not have autonomy then talk of "belief" is meaningless.

Talk of "logic" is meaningless. Talk of "justice" is meaningless.

If a mind is not free to decide what to believe, what is logical, or what is just then the judgements are meaningless.

If the human mind does not have the freedom to design a car or building or paint a picture that has never existed then those things could not exist.

Autonomy is a given if the world makes sense.

That is why it is a given in the real world where people are punished for their decisions.

You only punish that which could have done differently.

What you mean is the intelligence to design or create, not autonomy.

You are using the word "intelligence" as a smoke screen.

But the intelligence to plan is the autonomy to decide specifically what you will and will not do in regard to some ideas in the mind.

 

[Jokodo]

Nobody ever said the world had meaning.

What is being said here is ideas have meaning. And to use ideas in a meaningful way requires an understanding of the ideas and the autonomy to decide which ideas are good and which are not.

If the human mind does not have the freedom to design a car or building or paint a picture that has never existed then those things could not exist.

That's not an argument, that's a proclamation.

Arguments are made up of proclamations.

Plate tectonics creates ridges, coast lines, wind erosion dune patterns that have "never existed" too - every day.

Those do not involve planning.

To plan something new and then to build what you plan requires autonomy.

Planning is an autonomous activity. It is creating the future with the will.

Autonomy is a given if the world makes sense.

The world is under no obligation to "make sense" (to you).

What a miserably worthless platitude. And a total non sequitur.

The mind gives meaning to the world.

With a mind the world does have meaning.

If the mind has autonomy.

If autonomy is a delusion then there is no meaning anywhere.

That is why it is a given in the real world where people are punished for their decisions.

You only punish that which could have done differently.

If that is so (and there are philosophies that consider the goal of punishment to be primarily determent, in which case it doesn't follow because with a change of pull- and push factors, someone who could not have done differently could maybe only have done differently), it shows at best that punishment is irrational.

How do you deter something that does not have the freedom to decide?

The notion of autonomy is not so easily waved away. It is an intertwined part of human society.

Every single society that initiated a justice system and punished people for sins or crimes has totally accepted the idea of human autonomy.

If scientists actually believed this bullshit they would be up in arms and demanding radical change.

But since they don't it must be assumed they have autonomously decided for themselves it is really total bullshit.

In other words, you have no argument.

Ironic, though, that you'd use the word "platitudes" in your defense. It's your most burning indictment.

 

[untermensche]

I give a series of arguments.

And instead of addressing any of them you pull the claim out of your ass that none exist.

Thanks for trying.

 

[fromderinside]

We have no theory that tells us what matter is.

 Standard Model

Guide: particle = matter.

Nope.

Yup!

 

[untermensche]

Nope.

Yup!

What makes up a quark?

You don't understand the difference between modeling behavior and knowing what a thing is.

You are no philosopher.

 

[steve_bank]

I give a series of arguments.

And instead of addressing any of them you pull the claim out of your ass that none exist.

Thanks for trying.

We do not seeing you as making arguments, you make assertions often counter to current science and evidence.

If mind is distinct from body as you assert how does it work and is it operating independent of brain.?

The heart is a distint opart of the body and we know how it works. If mind is a distinct part how does it work and what is the relation to brain?

Calling mind distinct as part of a metaphysical debate on mind as a talking point is fine. What is the physical reality?

We are all conditioned from birt by surroundings, sight, sounds, language, and observation. It is impossible to say one can make a totally unbiased decision.

Why buy a Ford instead of a Chevey? Your choice will be in part due to years of exposure to advertising and how you subjectively feel how it looks with you in it. And that is based in cultural conditioning.

 

[untermensche]

I give a series of arguments.

And instead of addressing any of them you pull the claim out of your ass that none exist.

Thanks for trying.

We do not seeing you as making arguments....

Who is this we?

I answer your arguments and the arguments of others.

I see no group arguments.

If mind is distinct from body as you assert how does it work and is it operating independent of brain.?

I specifically told you it is intimately connected to the brain.

Some kind of activity, we don't know what, is creating the mind.

But it is not a thing made of matter.

It is a capacity that arises from matter and can influence matter.

 

[DBT]

'We' as your opponents on this issue don't see you as making a valid argument.

Sure, you do reply.....but your replies are only made up of claims and assertions.

Making claims ad assertions is not a valid form of argument.

 

[DBT]

If the mind does not have autonomy then talk of "belief" is meaningless.

Talk of "logic" is meaningless. Talk of "justice" is meaningless.

If a mind is not free to decide what to believe, what is logical, or what is just then the judgements are meaningless.

If the human mind does not have the freedom to design a car or building or paint a picture that has never existed then those things could not exist.

Autonomy is a given if the world makes sense.

That is why it is a given in the real world where people are punished for their decisions.

You only punish that which could have done differently.

What you mean is the intelligence to design or create, not autonomy.

You are using the word "intelligence" as a smoke screen.

But the intelligence to plan is the autonomy to decide specifically what you will and will not do in regard to some ideas in the mind.

Intelligence is not a smokescreen. Intelligence means the difference between understanding or failing to understand something, the difference between being able to do something and not being able to do it.

Take two different minds, one mind has the capacity or ability to grasp mathematics, calculus, etc, while the other struggles, never quite being able to master the basics, yet alone becoming proficient.

The difference being, not autonomy of mind, but how each brain is wired; neural architecture. The mathematician did not choose his or her capacity for math, the one who is struggling with math did not choose their own condition.

Mind, with its collection of attributes abilities, is the work and expression of each brain.

The mathematician may be good at what he does, but cannot do mechanical jobs, change a tire, check the oil level, while the maths struggler may be an excellent mechanic.

It's all in the brain, Mr Untermesche, your whole experience of the world and self.

 

[untermensche]

'We' as your opponents on this issue don't see you as making a valid argument.

Sure, you do reply.....but your replies are only made up of claims and assertions.

Making claims ad assertions is not a valid form of argument.

I have no opponents.

I have a few gnats that have crazy ideas like the autonomous movement of the arm is a delusion.

Ideas like the entire criminal justice system is based on a delusion.

 

[DBT]

'We' as your opponents on this issue don't see you as making a valid argument.

Sure, you do reply.....but your replies are only made up of claims and assertions.

Making claims ad assertions is not a valid form of argument.

I have no opponents.

I have a few gnats that have crazy ideas like the autonomous movement of the arm is a delusion.

Ideas like the entire criminal justice system is based on a delusion.

That's interesting, nothing you say actually relates to the errors in your position being pointed out.

Arms do not autonomously decide to move. If your arm moves, it is due to either nerve twitch, reflex action or motor function performed by the brain either consciously or unconsciously. The initiation of movement preceding conscious awareness by milliseconds.

As for the issue of deterrence, that has been explained. To whatever degree deterrence works, it works because it sets an example of what can happen to you if you decide to steal, kill or do whatever society has prohibited. You understand the penalties and act accordingly....if your brain is rational, if you are not impulsive.....

 

[untermensche]

You don't have the slightest clue how the movement of the arm is initiated.


And I have dissected a human. I know more about the anatomy than you ever will.

 

[DBT]

What poor response. When you say what you said about not knowing how movement is initiated, can't you see the irony of your own position?

Or maybe you would like to explain motor function according to your knowledge?

 

[fromderinside]

Bold statements from the might be pretender.

What you are is a poster of declaratives without backing beyond what's going on in your dusty little brain.

So you say I don't this and I can't that without rules or foundations. Philosopher? Soothsayer and quacken reciter perhaps.

Conceptions such as Standard Model theory resulted in the building of a large magnifying energy hammer that was used to confirm model predictions in experiments are repeatable and visible to all who care to see.

Then on the other hand we have untermenche bloviating. Ironic juxtaposition? Exactly.

You aren't one of those he's my kid and "I'll-do-with-her-as-I-want" Know Nothings are you? Yano one who claims they can do whatever in spite of demonstrated harm so doing causes?.

Your ilk caused the black plague then denied it when they were shown evidence they actually were responsible. That is one good reason Peter was hung upside down.

Very small step that from reasoned thinking confirmed by evidence. Very serious consequences. Such is why philosophy lasted through the dark ages then died when the experimental method was used consistently.

Your interpretation is noted, recorded, put before the observers. have fun waving your hands about how your flat earth concept works.

Oh? Too harsh. Your words without substantiation. Your responsibility.

Philosophize that.

 

[untermensche]

What poor response. When you say what you said about not knowing how movement is initiated, can't you see the irony of your own position?

Or maybe you would like to explain motor function according to your knowledge?

I have forgotten more about motor function than you will ever know about it.

And nobody has the slightest clue how the initiation of movement occurs.

You display an incredible ignorance on that subject.