The idea of an infinite past

[untermensche]

There is nothing that says that the universe must appear whole. The universe can have changed a lot.... even began with an infinite time already there.

If infinite time is already there you are saying it is possible for an infinity to somehow appear whole.

Is it possible for all the fractions between zero and one to appear whole? How would that happen?

If an expressed infinity is impossible then one cannot already be anywhere.

 

[bilby]

Your position is explained in one word.

Miracle. Your infinity looks very much like the Christian God. Another infinity that just appears whole.

There's no "My infinity" you imbecile. YOU are the one making a claim...

Your position is that an infinity is possible if one somehow appears whole by magic.

NO!

My position is that an infinite past is possible UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW THAT IT IS NOT. You are the claimant; The burden of proof is YOURS.

You can ONLY convince others of the truth of your claim that an infinite past is impossible BY SHOWING THAT IT ENTAILS A CONTRADICTION.

That's it.

Anything else is meaningless bluster.

IF you could show that an infinite past was impossible, THEN you would have surely done so by now.

You have failed. Repeatedly. Nobody else is therefore required to give a single flying fuck about your unsupported claim. If you refuse to use reason and logic, then you refuse to be taken seriously. It's on YOU - Either prove that your claim is well founded, or withdraw it, or continue to be thought a fool.


ETA - On the plus side, you can add the Straw Man fallacy to your tally. You are well on the way to collecting the whole set, and demonstrating to the world your inability to grasp, not just some, but ALL of the fundamentals of reason and thought.

 

[untermensche]

My position is that an infinite past is possible UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW THAT IT IS NOT.

You are claiming it is possible for an infinity to just appear whole. And in the past.

How would that happen?

 

[bilby]

My position is that an infinite past is possible UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW THAT IT IS NOT.

You are claiming it is possible for an infinity to just appear whole. And in the past.

How would that happen?

I have made NO CLAIM AT ALL; I have just asked you to support yours.

I have repeatedly and explicitly said that I am not making any claims, other than that you have failed to prove your claim; and that anything not proven to be impossible is, by definition, possible.

My position is that an infinite past is possible UNLESS SOMEONE CAN SHOW THAT IT IS NOT. You are the claimant; The burden of proof is YOURS.

There's no "My infinity" you imbecile. YOU are the one making a claim. I am merely pointing out that you have failed to support that claim.

...

You made a claim. You cannot or will not support that claim with reason or logic. Your claim fails. What I do or do not believe is of no relevance whatsoever to these simple facts.

You have not demonstrated that there is no contradiction between the definition of an infinity and a completed infinity.

Shifting the burden of proof didn't work before; What makes you imagine that it is suddenly not a fallacy now?

So since a clear contradiction exists we are done.

No clear contradiction has been presented. You just declared that I needed to demonstrate that one does not, which is the (rather tired) logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

I think you need to learn how to think; You are clearly unqualified to attempt the proof that you are trying to achieve.

What you do or do not know is of little import. The question is, can you demonstrate that an infinite past necessarily entails a contradiction?

If you can, then you have proven it to be impossible, and your claim must be accepted by all reasonable people. Until you do, your claim remains unproven, and no reasonable person need give it any credence.

Your initial objection in this thread was based on assuming your conclusion - the logical fallacy of question begging, or circular reasoning. That's not going to work. If we assume that the past is infinite, then it is incorrect to assume that the past cannot contain an infinite amount of changes - that second assumption only holds if we have concluded that our first assumption is false, and we hadn't got there yet.

You new objection is based on reversal of the burden of proof - you are asking me to prove that the assumption that the past is infinite is a statement of fact; But I need not do this. You are claiming that it is false, so YOU must demonstrate that it entails a contradiction.

And you must do so without the use of fallacious logic.

How would I prove it is possible? I wouldn't. I would simply point out that the basic principles of logic and reason indicate that I need not do so. YOU need to EITHER show that it is impossible - that it entails a contradiction - OR withdraw your claim that it is impossible.

Have you perhaps suffered a brain injury that limits your short-term memory? Because the regularity with which you repeat logical fallacies after they have been pointed out to you suggests some kind of pathological inability to learn. That's now SIX times I have pointed out the use of that ONE fallacy by you in a thread with just 44 posts.

Are you engaged in an attempt at a place in the Guinness Book of Records for 'most logical fallacies in one discussion thread'?

 

[untermensche]

I have made NO CLAIM AT ALL; I have just asked you to support yours.

I asked if it is possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one.

You said it was possible if an infinity of time magically appeared to allow it.

You are claiming it is possible for an infinity of time to just appear. By magic. A miracle.

Do you now take back the claim?

Do you still think it is possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one?

 

[bilby]

I have made NO CLAIM AT ALL; I have just asked you to support yours.

I asked if it is possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one.

You said it was possible if an infinity of time magically appeared to allow it.

You are claiming it is possible for an infinity of time to just appear. By magic. A miracle.

Do you now take back the claim?

Do you still think it is possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one?

OK, let's briefly revisit that conversation, (as you appear to be suffering some selective amnesia) and see whether there are any hints there as to why I am not still discussing that claim:

Sure it's possible. It would take an infinite amount of time

So we can begin to write out all the fractions between zero and one and after some time, infinite time, we will write them all out?

After infinite time, sure. Why not?

Why do you conflate 'infinite time' with 'some time'? 'Some time' might (by a dishonest or uncomprehending person) be construed to imply 'finite time' - and clearly, if it does, then no, we will not write them all out after 'some time'. only after infinite time.

Of course, this is irrelevant to a discussion of an infinite past, which by definition does not 'begin', and so is not analogous to any activity that is described with the phrase "So we can begin to..."

So it is, YET AGAIN, a non-sequitur to your claim that an infinite past is impossible.

Have you now abandoned that claim? Because you seem disinclined to address it at all - Instead we are discussing fractions between zero and one, which are as far as I can see, an unrelated topic.

I can see why, if you are incapable of supporting your initial claim, you might want to change the subject; But I feel absolutely zero inclination to assist you in such diversionary tactics.

Now:

Can you show that assuming an infinite past necessarily entails a contradiction? If you can, then please do so. If you cannot, then please withdraw your claim.

 

[untermensche]

You made the claim that it is somehow possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one.

You said it depended on how much time you were given.

Do you still believe this?

Do you still think it is in any way possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one?

This is a crucial point for an understanding of my position.

If you think they can somehow all be expressed then you have to defend it.

If you think they cannot you have to admit an infinity (at least one) cannot be made real.

 

[bilby]

You made the claim that it is somehow possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one.

You said it depended on how much time you were given.

Do you still believe this?

Do you still think it is in any way possible to express, make real in some way, all the fractions between zero and one?

This is a crucial point for an understanding of my position.

If you think they can somehow all be expressed then you have to defend it.

If you think they cannot you have to admit an infinity (at least one) cannot be made real.

I shall take your insistence on changing the subject as a 'no' to my last question then.

Back to 'ignore' you go. Life's too short for discussions with people who cannot or will not learn how to reason.

 

[untermensche]

You offer no rational arguments.

Ignoring these kinds of discussions would be a good thing for you to do.

You will not even try to look at a real infinity or look at the implications of trying to imagine a real infinity.

You are really a waste of my time and efforts.

 

[Lion IRC]

Never ending thread.

 

[Juma]

You offer no rational arguments.

Ignoring these kinds of discussions would be a good thing for you to do.

You will not even try to look at a real infinity or look at the implications of trying to imagine a real infinity.

You are really a waste of my time and efforts.

Effort? What fuckin effort? You are just reapeating yourself over and over again without ever putting ANY effort in trying to understand any other view than your own retarded litania.

 

[Kharakov]

Never ending thread.

It's for kitties, and physicists who like wool.

 

[untermensche]

Do you think it is possible for all the fractions between zero and one to be expressed? To appear in the real world in some way.

 

[Kharakov]

Do you think it is possible for all the fractions between zero and one to be expressed? To appear in the real world in some way.

Not using finite descriptors, or incorrect descriptions of the real continuum.

You can't describe continuous reality (which exists) without introducing the concept of infinity (limits). There is no smallest fractional length of distance in the continuum.

There is a smallest detectable "length" of spacetime resolution at our scale of EM interaction, but I don't know all of the variables that go into it (it's below Planck scale, and depends on how far away the furthest GRB that can still be discerned as a GRB is (keeping in mind redshift from spacetime expansion- at some point, a GRB would not be discernible from other lower energy radiation)).

 

[untermensche]

Do you think it is possible for all the fractions between zero and one to be expressed? To appear in the real world in some way.

Not using finite descriptors, or incorrect descriptions of the real continuum.

You can't describe continuous reality (which exists) without introducing the concept of infinity (limits). There is no smallest fractional length of distance in the continuum.

There is a smallest detectable "length" of spacetime resolution at our scale of EM interaction, but I don't know all of the variables that go into it (it's below Planck scale, and depends on how far away the furthest GRB that can still be discerned as a GRB is (keeping in mind redshift from spacetime expansion- at some point, a GRB would not be discernible from other lower energy radiation)).

So is that yes or no?

Can all the fractions between zero and one ever be expressed? Can they all be made real?

Why is this question so hard?

The answer is clear.

And the fact is an infinite past is as possible as expressing all the fractions between zero and one in the past.

 

[fromderinside]

What is it about ability for one to express that makes not being able to do so unreal? Obviously we have any 0,1 interval really bound by any set of 0.1 interval instances one chooses to express. Just because one can create greater and greater subdivisions within that interval does not make that interval unreal. It is 0.1 whatever units.

What is not possible is for one to count all the possible fractions in the interval. It's not with number or interval it is with human capacity to attain completion of counting of possible fractions within the interval. The interval is real, The failure is with humans having the capacity to delineate all fractions in the interval over any number of human lifetimes. Not a problem of numerical reality. A problem for humans to successfully count subintervals.

Your problem is conflating human or any other counting machine's capacity with reality.

 

[untermensche]

Just because one can create greater and greater subdivisions within that interval does not make that interval unreal.

What exists between the interval is an infinity.

And we can try to make the infinity real in some way to see if an infinity can be made real.

Making a fraction real is acknowledging it in some way, expressing it in some human way.

Otherwise it is purely imaginary.

Can all the fractions between zero and one be made real?

Can we start expressing them and finish expressing them all?

 

[Kharakov]

Do you think it is possible for all the fractions between zero and one to be expressed? To appear in the real world in some way.

Not using finite descriptors, or incorrect descriptions of the real continuum.

You can't describe continuous reality (which exists) without introducing the concept of infinity (limits). There is no smallest fractional length of distance in the continuum.

There is a smallest detectable "length" of spacetime resolution at our scale of EM interaction, but I don't know all of the variables that go into it (it's below Planck scale, and depends on how far away the furthest GRB that can still be discerned as a GRB is (keeping in mind redshift from spacetime expansion- at some point, a GRB would not be discernible from other lower energy radiation)).

So is that yes or no?

Si, es si o no.

Why is this question so hard?

Too much calcium? I think salt helps.

And the fact is an infinite past is as possible as expressing all the fractions between zero and one in the past.

5

 

[untermensche]

And the fact is an infinite past is as possible as expressing all the fractions between zero and one in the past.

Deal with it.

It is a fact. Even if some are too blind to understand.

A real infinity is a fantasy. It is not something that could ever possibly exist.

 

[Kharakov]

I'm pretty sure you've demonstrated your coders have deliberately made you spout nonsense, sprinkled with a few truths they desire to associate with incorrect thinking.

I know I've been trolled into making comments that discredit me.... but that was the price I had to pay to learn the truth.

Discredit yourself first, and the corrupt will teach you the truth. It's the only path to knowledge.