• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The meaning of infinity

No. Numbers can have infinite decimals and still be computable. If there is a program that can compute the decimal to arbitrary precision, then the number is said to be computable.

And to correct an earlier post of yours: 0.999... is a real number. It denotes the limit of a particular geometric series, and that limit is 1.

How does 0.999... resolve to 1 as a limit?
Seriously, steve_bank, this is basic undergraduate level real analysis. If you're not familiar with this stuff, there's no shame in it. But you shouldn't be trying to educate anyone else about real numbers if so.

Formally: any infinite decimal x.x0x1x2x3... literally denotes the limit of the series

\(x + \frac{x_0}{10} + \frac{x_1}{100} + \frac{x_2}{1000} + \frac{x_3}{10000} + \cdots\).

The limit of a series, in general, is the limit, should it exist, of the sequence of initial prefix sums of the series. So for decimals, that means that

x.x0x1x2x3...

is the limit of the sequence

\(x, x + \frac{x_0}{10}, x + \frac{x_0}{10} + \frac{x_1}{100}, x + \frac{x_0}{10} + \frac{x_1}{100} + \frac{x_2}{1000}, x + \frac{x_0}{10} + \frac{x_1}{100} + \frac{x_2}{1000} + \frac{x_3}{10000} + \cdots\)

The limit of a sequence, in general, is defined as that number, should it exist, that the sequence eventually becomes arbitrarily close to. Formally, given a sequence { xn }, the sequence converges to some limit l if and only if, given an arbitrary rational error threshold ε > 0, there exists a point N such that, for all n > N, |xn - l| < ε.

In other words, no matter what error threshold you give me, I can name a point in the sequence after which I stay within that threshold of the limit.

This limit is guaranteed to exist in the general case of infinite decimals due to the least upper bound property, which must itself be either taken as an axiom, or else established by a Construction of the real numbers.

However, for the trivial case of 0.999..., we have a very simple geometric series, the limit being defined as the limit of

0
0.9
0.99
0.999
...

and that limit is easy to establish. I say it is 1. Because if you give me a rational error threshold ε = p/q with p,q > 0, I can take the (q+1)th term in the sequence. The difference between 1 and this term is 1/10^q < 1/q < p/q. That difference decreases for all later terms, so from the (q+1)th term, we stay within the error threshold, satisfying the defining property of the limit.

Hence, 0.999... = 1.

I assure you that none of these are tricks, nor any of it esoteric calculus. These are the formal definitions. They are precisely what mathematicians have in mind when they talk about real numbers and limits, and what they require to meet their demands for rigor. They are not simply running with their vague intuitions gathered from playing with calculators.

This stuff may not apply when you're doing number crunching with a computer, and it might not apply in pharmacy, but it's what the actual mathematicians have been talking about for the last century and a half when making and reasoning with these distinctions.
 
From this I conclude that we know there are non-computable numbers, an uncountable infinity of them, but we don't necessarily know which numbers would be non-computable.

My point essentially is that if we can't compute a number then we don't know its decimal expansion so we can't possibly know it's not computable.

So non-computable numbers are numbers we don't know are not computable... :rolleyes:

I hope you like that piece of mathematical humour.
EB
Yes, it's a pretty funny situation, and it's almost true. The only way to get most non-computable numbers is to use a random number generator and get infinitely lucky. And yes, for those, you won't know its not computable. There's nothing but chance to stop a random number generator from fortuitously generating, say, pi divided by the square root of 293,866, and if it ever did you'd never notice.

However, although it's a bit of a trick to do it, there are specific numbers we can actually prove are non-computable. The most famous is called "Chaitin's Constant". It's actually a family of related constants. The idea is you construct a procedure for randomly generating any possible computer program. Here's one. Roll three dice. Read the numbers that come up as a 3-digit base-6 number from 0 to 215. If the number is ASCII for a legal character in C, put that character in your program, and then pick up the dice and do it again. Otherwise, stop -- you've finished generating the program. Every different procedure will give a different "Chaitin's Constant" that's only valid for that procedure. Chaitin's Constant for a given procedure is the probability that a program generated by that particular random procedure never goes into an infinite loop. It's not a computable probability because there's no algorithm for looking at an arbitrary program and figuring out if it ever goes into an infinite loop. We can compute the first few digits of one of these constants pretty easily because a random procedure is much more likely to generate a short program than a long one, and with short programs it's usually pretty easy to prove whether they go into an infinite loop. But the digits get harder and harder to compute as you go deeper into the constant, and eventually you get to a point where you can't find a way to get any more digits.
 
"3.14" is simply a terse notation for a finite series -- it means "3 + 1/10 + 4/100". With me so far?

So "0.999..." is the same terse notation but this time for an infinite series -- it means "0 + 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...".

So let x = 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 90/10 + 90/100 + 90/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 9/1 + 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 9/1 + x

Therefore, 9x = 9

Therefore, x = 1

So 0.999... = 0 + 1

An out of use but applicable term, gobbledygook. x = 0.999... No matter how many terms you use 1/x will never = 1. As the number of terms get large it will approach 1 asymptoticaly but it will be > 1. Take your calculator and calculate 1/0.9, 1/0.99,1/0.999... to the max digits on your calculator and see what happens. All arithmetic is finite. I nelieve entropy also applies to math. In every calculaion there can be loss of information. Rounding and truncation. Entropy as defined by Shannon in Information Theory.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gobbledygook.

Definition of gobbledygook
: wordy and generally unintelligible jargon
I take it "gobbledygook" is what you're calling my proof, rather than what you're calling your reply, although I'm pretty sure I didn't use any words as jargony as "entropy". Be that as it may, I wrote a proof. If 0.999... does not equal 1, even though that's the conclusion of a proof, then the proof must have an error in it. So which step in my proof do you think is incorrect? Which line is the first line that's false?
 
I'm not sure how something can be both ''infinite in some way and yet finite''
How about the infinity of rationals between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1?


Depends on the terminology and definitions being used. Some things may be defined into existence, mathematical constructs, etc. It's not something that I would consider to be actually infinite. Not like an actual Infinite Universe or an Infinite Multiverse where the 'infinity of rationals' between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1 does not compare.
 
I'm not sure how something can be both ''infinite in some way and yet finite''
How about the infinity of rationals between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1?


Depends on the terminology and definitions being used. Some things may be defined into existence, mathematical constructs, etc. It's not something that I would consider to be infinite.

The infinite series at both ends are not "bounded" in the sense they have a finish point. They are endless.

They just have points they can never reach.

They are still two series without end.

That is what an infinite series is.

None can actually exist since they have no end.
 
Potentially infinite is not the same as actually infinite. Open ended sets are potentially infinite while a Universe or Multiverse, if Infinite/Eternal, is actually Infinite.
 
Potentially infinite is not the same as actually infinite. Open ended sets are potentially infinite while a Universe or Multiverse, if Infinite/Eternal, is actually Infinite.

Infinite universes would mean universes without end.

It is impossible to have any such potentiality actually fulfilled.
 
Potentially infinite is not the same as actually infinite. Open ended sets are potentially infinite while a Universe or Multiverse, if Infinite/Eternal, is actually Infinite.

Infinite universes would mean universes without end.

It is impossible to have any such potentiality actually fulfilled.

I can't say that it is impossible. I am just making a distinction between open ended, potential infinity, and an actual Infinity, an infinite, eternal Universe or Multiverse...if such a thing exists.
 
Potentially infinite is not the same as actually infinite. Open ended sets are potentially infinite while a Universe or Multiverse, if Infinite/Eternal, is actually Infinite.

Infinite universes would mean universes without end.

It is impossible to have any such potentiality actually fulfilled.

I can't say that it is impossible. I am just making a distinction between open ended, potential infinity, and an actual Infinity, an infinite, eternal Universe or Multiverse...if such a thing exists.

Something without end is physically impossible.

It has no meaning in reality.

In reality if something exists it can be counted.

If a universe exists it can in theory be counted. There can not be universes without end.

That is a childish fantasy. A product of too many comic books.
 
"3.14" is simply a terse notation for a finite series -- it means "3 + 1/10 + 4/100". With me so far?

So "0.999..." is the same terse notation but this time for an infinite series -- it means "0 + 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...".

So let x = 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 90/10 + 90/100 + 90/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 9/1 + 9/10 + 9/100 + 9/1000 + ...

Therefore, 10x = 9/1 + x

Therefore, 9x = 9

Therefore, x = 1

So 0.999... = 0 + 1

An out of use but applicable term, gobbledygook. x = 0.999... No matter how many terms you use 1/x will never = 1. As the number of terms get large it will approach 1 asymptoticaly but it will be > 1. Take your calculator and calculate 1/0.9, 1/0.99,1/0.999... to the max digits on your calculator and see what happens. All arithmetic is finite. I nelieve entropy also applies to math. In every calculaion there can be loss of information. Rounding and truncation. Entropy as defined by Shannon in Information Theory.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gobbledygook.

Definition of gobbledygook
: wordy and generally unintelligible jargon

It's not generally unintelligible just because you don't understand it.
 
I'm not sure how something can be both ''infinite in some way and yet finite''
How about the infinity of rationals between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1?

Oh, right, brilliant! If you're serving all the answers on a plate the guy will never learn anything!

That was a baby step. He could have done it on his own. You would need to restrain your impulse.
EB
 
From this I conclude that we know there are non-computable numbers, an uncountable infinity of them, but we don't necessarily know which numbers would be non-computable.

My point essentially is that if we can't compute a number then we don't know its decimal expansion so we can't possibly know it's not computable.

So non-computable numbers are numbers we don't know are not computable... :rolleyes:

I hope you like that piece of mathematical humour.
EB
Yes, it's a pretty funny situation, and it's almost true. The only way to get most non-computable numbers is to use a random number generator and get infinitely lucky. And yes, for those, you won't know its not computable. There's nothing but chance to stop a random number generator from fortuitously generating, say, pi divided by the square root of 293,866, and if it ever did you'd never notice.

However, although it's a bit of a trick to do it, there are specific numbers we can actually prove are non-computable. The most famous is called "Chaitin's Constant". It's actually a family of related constants. The idea is you construct a procedure for randomly generating any possible computer program. Here's one. Roll three dice. Read the numbers that come up as a 3-digit base-6 number from 0 to 215. If the number is ASCII for a legal character in C, put that character in your program, and then pick up the dice and do it again. Otherwise, stop -- you've finished generating the program. Every different procedure will give a different "Chaitin's Constant" that's only valid for that procedure. Chaitin's Constant for a given procedure is the probability that a program generated by that particular random procedure never goes into an infinite loop. It's not a computable probability because there's no algorithm for looking at an arbitrary program and figuring out if it ever goes into an infinite loop. We can compute the first few digits of one of these constants pretty easily because a random procedure is much more likely to generate a short program than a long one, and with short programs it's usually pretty easy to prove whether they go into an infinite loop. But the digits get harder and harder to compute as you go deeper into the constant, and eventually you get to a point where you can't find a way to get any more digits.

Yes, I was aware of Chaitin's Constant but I have to admit my brain isn't properly trained to deal with the explanation of it provided by Wiki. It all seems to rest on the Turing machine and the halting problem. Well, I'll wait to get an upgrade to try that.

Still, the way you explain it, it seems you've just explained how to compute it and we don't actually compute just because it would "get harder and harder", which seems to be a good allegory for computing infinite series of digits.
EB
 
From this I conclude that we know there are non-computable numbers, an uncountable infinity of them, but we don't necessarily know which numbers would be non-computable.

My point essentially is that if we can't compute a number then we don't know its decimal expansion so we can't possibly know it's not computable.

So non-computable numbers are numbers we don't know are not computable... :rolleyes:

I hope you like that piece of mathematical humour.
EB
Yes, it's a pretty funny situation, and it's almost true. The only way to get most non-computable numbers is to use a random number generator and get infinitely lucky. And yes, for those, you won't know its not computable. There's nothing but chance to stop a random number generator from fortuitously generating, say, pi divided by the square root of 293,866, and if it ever did you'd never notice.

However, although it's a bit of a trick to do it, there are specific numbers we can actually prove are non-computable. The most famous is called "Chaitin's Constant". It's actually a family of related constants. The idea is you construct a procedure for randomly generating any possible computer program. Here's one. Roll three dice. Read the numbers that come up as a 3-digit base-6 number from 0 to 215. If the number is ASCII for a legal character in C, put that character in your program, and then pick up the dice and do it again. Otherwise, stop -- you've finished generating the program. Every different procedure will give a different "Chaitin's Constant" that's only valid for that procedure. Chaitin's Constant for a given procedure is the probability that a program generated by that particular random procedure never goes into an infinite loop. It's not a computable probability because there's no algorithm for looking at an arbitrary program and figuring out if it ever goes into an infinite loop. We can compute the first few digits of one of these constants pretty easily because a random procedure is much more likely to generate a short program than a long one, and with short programs it's usually pretty easy to prove whether they go into an infinite loop. But the digits get harder and harder to compute as you go deeper into the constant, and eventually you get to a point where you can't find a way to get any more digits.

Note: just to be clear: the non-computability of such numbers is a property of the problem stated (that states which value we want to compute) not a property of numbers (as in the set of reals).
 
Phil Scott said:
DBT said:
I'm not sure how something can be both ''infinite in some way and yet finite''
How about the infinity of rationals between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1?

Depends on the terminology and definitions being used. Some things may be defined into existence, mathematical constructs, etc. It's not something that I would consider to be infinite.

The infinite series at both ends are not "bounded" in the sense they have a finish point. They are endless.

They just have points they can never reach.

They are still two series without end.

That is what an infinite series is.

None can actually exist since they have no end.

Bravo! Every one of these statements here is wrong!

Let's take it one step at a time.

The infinite series at both ends are not "bounded" in the sense they have a finish point. They are endless.

Phil Scott didn't say anything about any "series". He talked about all the rationals between 0 and 1. That's a set and more specifically that's an interval, not a series.

So the set of all rationals between 0 and 1 is bounded by 0 and 1 in the sense that each rational between 0 and 1 is greater than 0 and smaller than 1. So, 0 and 1 are the bounds of the interval.

The interval between 0 and 1 contains an infinity of rationals.

So, this is one example of something which is infinite in some way and bounded in another way.

They just have points they can never reach.

We're not talking of series here so this is just wrong.

Still, we can define series of rational numbers on the interval between 0 and 1 so that their limits is 0 or 1. For example, the limit of the series 0 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8... is 1, which is a rational number included in the interval [0, 1]. Whether the series ever reaches 1 is an interesting but entirely metaphysical question. Nobody has the answer to it.

Still, this is irrelevant to the issue of something infinite in a way and bounded in another way like the interval of rationals between 0 and 1 because that's a set and an interval, not a series.

Also, series may not be appropriate because I don't think we could define a series of rationals with 1 as a limit that would include all rationals between 0 and 1.

They are still two series without end.

Wrong. We're not even talking about series here.

That is what an infinite series is.

Wrong. Infinite series can have a limit and therefore be bounded by it.

Also, an infinite series can include its bound. Whether such a limit is also its "end" is a metaphysical question.

None can actually exist since they have no end.

That's a non-sequitur. Why would the fact that there is no end to something implies it doesn't exist? Beats me.
EB
 
I'm not sure how something can be both ''infinite in some way and yet finite''
How about the infinity of rationals between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1?


Depends on the terminology and definitions being used. Some things may be defined into existence, mathematical constructs, etc. It's not something that I would consider to be actually infinite. Not like an actual Infinite Universe or an Infinite Multiverse where the 'infinity of rationals' between 0 and 1, being bounded by both 0 and 1 does not compare.

How does it not "compare"? The rationals is a pretty good conceptual representation of a space that would be infinitely divisible, which ordinary space might well be for all we know. How does it not "compare"?
EB
 
From this I conclude that we know there are non-computable numbers, an uncountable infinity of them, but we don't necessarily know which numbers would be non-computable.

My point essentially is that if we can't compute a number then we don't know its decimal expansion so we can't possibly know it's not computable.

So non-computable numbers are numbers we don't know are not computable... :rolleyes:

I hope you like that piece of mathematical humour.
EB
Yes, it's a pretty funny situation, and it's almost true. The only way to get most non-computable numbers is to use a random number generator and get infinitely lucky. And yes, for those, you won't know its not computable. There's nothing but chance to stop a random number generator from fortuitously generating, say, pi divided by the square root of 293,866, and if it ever did you'd never notice.

However, although it's a bit of a trick to do it, there are specific numbers we can actually prove are non-computable. The most famous is called "Chaitin's Constant". It's actually a family of related constants. The idea is you construct a procedure for randomly generating any possible computer program. Here's one. Roll three dice. Read the numbers that come up as a 3-digit base-6 number from 0 to 215. If the number is ASCII for a legal character in C, put that character in your program, and then pick up the dice and do it again. Otherwise, stop -- you've finished generating the program. Every different procedure will give a different "Chaitin's Constant" that's only valid for that procedure. Chaitin's Constant for a given procedure is the probability that a program generated by that particular random procedure never goes into an infinite loop. It's not a computable probability because there's no algorithm for looking at an arbitrary program and figuring out if it ever goes into an infinite loop. We can compute the first few digits of one of these constants pretty easily because a random procedure is much more likely to generate a short program than a long one, and with short programs it's usually pretty easy to prove whether they go into an infinite loop. But the digits get harder and harder to compute as you go deeper into the constant, and eventually you get to a point where you can't find a way to get any more digits.

Note: just to be clear: the non-computability of such numbers is a property of the problem stated (that states which value we want to compute) not a property of numbers (as in the set of reals).

As far as I understand it, Chaitin is a way of identifying numbers that are not computable. So, non-computability is a property of those numbers unless you can explain why Chaitin doesn't work.
EB
 
Phil Scott didn't say anything about any "series". He talked about all the rationals between 0 and 1. That's a set and more specifically that's an interval, not a series.

The rationals appear on a line. They are a series along that line.

The line approaches 1 but does not ever get there.

It is not bounded in the sense that 1 is a final destination.

The series is unbounded and endless.

Thinking about an infinite series as a set is just an abstraction.

It does not change the series in one way.

You have nothing but some magical thinking about the concept of a set.

A set can be imagined to contain an infinite series but in reality no such series can be contained.
 
Note: just to be clear: the non-computability of such numbers is a property of the problem stated (that states which value we want to compute) not a property of numbers (as in the set of reals).

As far as I understand it, Chaitin is a way of identifying numbers that are not computable. So, non-computability is a property of those numbers unless you can explain why Chaitin doesn't work.
EB

I suspected that you should believe something like that. Thats why i wrote the post.
There is nothing special with the numbers themselves, its just a problem of identifying which number.
It has nothing incommon with incommensrable numbers, transcendet numbers etc.
 
Phil Scott didn't say anything about any "series". He talked about all the rationals between 0 and 1. That's a set and more specifically that's an interval, not a series.

The rationals appear on a line. They are a series along that line.

The line approaches 1 but does not ever get there.

It is not bounded in the sense that 1 is a final destination.

The series is unbounded and endless.

Thinking about an infinite series as a set is just an abstraction.

It does not change the series in one way.

You have nothing but some magical thinking about the concept of a set.

A set can be imagined to contain an infinite series but in reality no such series can be contained.
Decimal numbers, real numbers etc are ALL abstract concepts.
 
Back
Top Bottom