The NFL Fumbles the Ball

[laughing dog]

So, does the NFL suspend Adrian Peterson for his alleged domestic violence crime of beating his child with a switch?

Well, the team already did suspend him. It is an interesting case because hitting kids is not illegal in many states, and would not have been prosecuted in this case if the mother of that child did not pursue a prosecution. IOW, it is almost more of a case of him getting prosecuted for hitting someone else's kid than for hitting his own.

This was no ordinary "spanking". He used a stick and inflicted numerous bruises and cuts on a 4 yr old child. (source: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11514522/adrian-peterson-minnesota-vikings-indicted-child-case). The statement from the local indicting DA says it all here:

In Texas, Grant said, "parents are entitled to discipline their children as they see fit, except when that discipline exceeds what the community would say is reasonable." In Peterson's case, Grant said, the grand jury found Peterson's discipline exceeded a reasonable standard.

This is an egregious case of violence against a child. Beating a child is not excusable. The argument that this is about discipline is shallow since Ray Rice was also "disciplining" his fiance, yet the NFL took action against Rice.

 

[Sabine Grant]

It is also interesting because of the racial disparity in the use of spanking. If it became consistently illegal and was consistently and unbiasedly enforced, there would be disproportionate number of blacks in jail for it, and of black players being banned for it. That would then of course be used by many to claim racism by the NFL and cops.

Yes there has been a lot of apologetics for Peterson around the internet using that strange bit of cultural relativism. Rules should be applied consistently and equally. No double standard should be applied either on account of gender or of race.

Actually, I would contend that there would be a disproportionate number of religious adults in jail. The reason being that (considering the predominant religion in the US being Christianity) the Bible encourages the use of the "rod" to discipline children( and mind you with the specific to "not spare the rod"). However, I am not seeing much of an outrage regarding the use of the "rod" in such religious families. Better to nominate Blacks as the one group most susceptible to use physical force to discipline their children.

The reality remains that the intent behind any use of physical force for the purpose of disciplining children is to induce/cause physical pain while being misguided to believe that corporal punishment is an effective form of disciplining children. Essentially whether it be spanking/hitting by hand or with an accessory such as a paddle, a stick etc...it comes down to physical abuse of the child. Many people do not realize that is what it is.

Ideally all parents regarding of their ethnicity, gender, origin, sexual orientation etc...ought to educate themselves as to what has been established by experts in the domain of pediatric psychology. Rather than doing it due to religious commands or doing it because their parents did it and their grand parents did it etc...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Based on the allegation, what Petersen did was not discipline. Breaking the skin is not discipline, it is abuse. While spanking(s) may not be effective, it really should not be considered at the same level of allegedly causing multiple cuts on a four year old.

And am I the only one that had to look up what a switch was?

And regarding the effectiveness of spanking, I really don't give a flip what studies are saying right now. As a relatively new parent, I am absolutely crazy that after the 20th century, there is little in the way of academic consensus in raising infants and kids. So I'm left with doing what I had done to me when I was a kid. If getting whapped with an angry beaver when I did something wrong was good enough for me as a child...

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Based on the allegation, what Petersen did was not discipline. Breaking the skin is not discipline, it is abuse. While spanking(s) may not be effective, it really should not be considered at the same level of allegedly causing multiple cuts on a four year old.

And am I the only one that had to look up what a switch was?

And regarding the effectiveness of spanking, I really don't give a flip what studies are saying right now. As a relatively new parent, I am absolutely crazy that after the 20th century, there is little in the way of academic consensus in raising infants and kids. So I'm left with doing what I had done to me when I was a kid. If getting whapped with an angry beaver when I did something wrong was good enough for me as a child...

My Gramma used to make us cut our own switches. And don't come back with some little 4 inch twig unless you wanted twice as many lashes. If you cried, you were told to be quiet and was beaten until you were. If you didn't cry, you were beaten harder until you did. all the while that old lady was talking to you and punctuating every word with a lash across your legs.

I was lucky.

When she used to beat my momma, when she was finished she used cut the whelps open to let out the blood and puss. And unlike me or her brother, Momma couldn't wear wear pants to school.

 

[doubtingt]

Yes there has been a lot of apologetics for Peterson around the internet using that strange bit of cultural relativism. Rules should be applied consistently and equally. No double standard should be applied either on account of gender or of race.

Actually, I would contend that there would be a disproportionate number of religious adults in jail.

Yes, but also a disproportionate number of blacks. They aren't mutually exclusive. I have listened to a lot of ESPN this week and have heard only 3 regular analysts on ESPN really defend Peterson's actions as no big deal. All of them were black analysts who implied this was par for the course among black families, especially in the South.
That was no surprise to me since I am quite familiar with the term "switch" and have always heard it used by blacks, and am familiar with the formal studies showing much higher frequency of spankings as discipline among blacks.

The reason being that (considering the predominant religion in the US being Christianity) the Bible encourages the use of the "rod" to discipline children( and mind you with the specific to "not spare the rod"). However, I am not seeing much of an outrage regarding the use of the "rod" in such religious families. Better to nominate Blacks as the one group most susceptible to use physical force to discipline their children.[

Blacks are not the "one group", but they are one of the groups most frequently using abuse as a form of discipline, and would definitely be disproportionately represented among those punished for it, if it was prosecuted without racial bias. Yet that disparity would be dishonestly presented as "evidence" of racism and injustice by the many of the very people claiming to want Peterson punished in this case.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Abuse victims commonly defend the abuser and the abuse.

This is nothing new.

The use of the switch goes back to slavery.

When your child behaved or spoke in a manner displeasing to the master, or more commonly to the mistress, the master could beat your child or you could. That master could beat him with a whip, or you could beat him with a switch. The master could beat him until he passed out or you could beat him until he cried out. You could "put the fear of God" into your child, or watch your child be sold from you.

This was the way for generations.

All the way through Jim Crow, which did not end until roughly fifty years ago.

And some argue, it still hasn't.

 

[doubtingt]

Abuse victims commonly defend the abuser and the abuse.

This is nothing new.

The use of the switch goes back to slavery.

When your child behaved or spoke in a manner displeasing to the master, or more commonly to the mistress, the master could beat your child or you could. That master could beat him with a whip, or you could beat him with a switch. The master could beat him until he passed out or you could beat him until he cried out. You could "put the fear of God" into your child, or watch your child be sold from you.

Sure. No doubt there are many reasons directly or indirectly tied to slavery for greater use of violence by blacks against there kids. Just as with their greater use of violence against their spouses, and against other members of their community.
But that doesn't change the fact that proper and unbiased law enforcement should result in disproportionately more blacks being punished for child abuse, just as it should result in more black in prison for nearly all violent crimes.
That it why it is so absurdly dishonest for people to point to racial disparities in incarceration as evidence of racial bias in law enforcement.

 

[Derec]

The use of the switch goes back to slavery.

I don't doubt it does. What I have a problem with is slavery still being used as an excuse for such things a century and a half later.

 

[Derec]

When she used to beat my momma, when she was finished she used cut the whelps open to let out the blood and puss. And unlike me or her brother, Momma couldn't wear wear pants to school.

Jesus! No wonder your mother grew up to be a domestic abuser (re your story of how your mother used to beat your father unconscious when he got drunk).

 

[Derec]

Actually, I would contend that there would be a disproportionate number of religious adults in jail. The reason being that (considering the predominant religion in the US being Christianity) the Bible encourages the use of the "rod" to discipline children( and mind you with the specific to "not spare the rod"). However, I am not seeing much of an outrage regarding the use of the "rod" in such religious families. Better to nominate Blacks as the one group most susceptible to use physical force to discipline their children.

I do not doubt Bible-believing Christians have a higher incidence of support for corporal punishment but the fact is that Peterson has had a lot of defense by other blacks on explicitly racial (and regional, i.e. "southern blacks"), not religious, grounds.

If you have an issue with blacks being "nominated" here, take it up with those doing the nominating when they defend Peterson on racial grounds. People like, but hardly limited to, Charles Barkley.

 

[RavenSky]

And regarding the effectiveness of spanking, I really don't give a flip what studies are saying right now. As a relatively new parent, I am absolutely crazy that after the 20th century, there is little in the way of academic consensus in raising infants and kids. So I'm left with doing what I had done to me when I was a kid. If getting whapped with an angry beaver when I did something wrong was good enough for me as a child...

You are aware that this is precisely Petersen's argument too?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Abuse victims commonly defend the abuser and the abuse.

This is nothing new.

The use of the switch goes back to slavery.

When your child behaved or spoke in a manner displeasing to the master, or more commonly to the mistress, the master could beat your child or you could. That master could beat him with a whip, or you could beat him with a switch. The master could beat him until he passed out or you could beat him until he cried out. You could "put the fear of God" into your child, or watch your child be sold from you.

Sure. No doubt there are many reasons directly or indirectly tied to slavery for greater use of violence by blacks against there kids. Just as with their greater use of violence against their spouses, and against other members of their community.
But that doesn't change the fact that proper and unbiased law enforcement should result in disproportionately more blacks being punished for child abuse, just as it should result in more black in prison for nearly all violent crimes.
That it why it is so absurdly dishonest for people to point to racial disparities in incarceration as evidence of racial bias in law enforcement.

your assumption is that the legal system is righteous all the way through.

But if it starts in error, it will carry that error all the way through.

A man is looking for his glasses. He is all over the living room, looking in drawers, flipping cushions on the sofa. His wife asks him, "Where was the last place you had them?"

"In the bedroom."

"Why are you looking in here?"

"The light is better in here."

Police tend to concentrate their efforts in poor and/or minority neighborhoods. If that's where you look most, guess who you find most.

This helps explains that while drug use breaks fairly evenly between black and white people, arrests are skewed toward black people.

Poverty spawns criminal behavior, and black folk are disproportionally poor. but you end that problem by ending poverty not locking up poor people.

As for corporal punishment, an interesting thing is that yes, you will hear people, say my age, talk about how we were brought up and how whipping did us good, but when my generation is asked specific questions like, why would spank a child, for what specific acts, how often did you spank your child as opposed to how often you were spanked, you find each generation spanks less and less.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

When she used to beat my momma, when she was finished she used cut the whelps open to let out the blood and puss. And unlike me or her brother, Momma couldn't wear wear pants to school.

Jesus! No wonder your mother grew up to be a domestic abuser (re your story of how your mother used to beat your father unconscious when he got drunk).

My mom landed one knockout punch after being swung on and having him miss, which was scene every time and the times numbered three in a 59 year marriage.

You see, my father had nine brother, eight of whom married and all of whom beat their wives, some more than others. So when family got together and my father and "the boys" would get drunk, poppa would get to feeling he needed to show his brothers that he too was the man of his house. My mother wasn't any of her sisters-in-law. She hit back.

And after more than a decade of working with abused and battered women, I can understand why she did.

I doubt you ever will.

 

[doubtingt]

Sure. No doubt there are many reasons directly or indirectly tied to slavery for greater use of violence by blacks against there kids. Just as with their greater use of violence against their spouses, and against other members of their community.
But that doesn't change the fact that proper and unbiased law enforcement should result in disproportionately more blacks being punished for child abuse, just as it should result in more black in prison for nearly all violent crimes.
That it why it is so absurdly dishonest for people to point to racial disparities in incarceration as evidence of racial bias in law enforcement.

your assumption is that the legal system is righteous all the way through.

I am not assuming anything about the legal system. I am saying that a disparity of greater % of blacks being punished for violent crimes implies nothing about any racism within the current criminal justice system, because such a disparity is just as consistent with a perfect and a non-racist current system.
There may be and likely is racism within the justice system and with other aspects of current society that contribute to criminal behavior. But the evidence of those things must be more direct, and cannot be inferred backwards from disparities in the outcomes of the criminal justice system itself as you and others here so frequently do.

For example, after the NFL puts policies into place and this current situation blows over, 5 years from now the effect of the policies will be that black players are more likely to be suspended, fined, or banned from the league. It is a virtual certainty that if that stats came out in some media outlet that all the usual suspects here would trot it out as evidence that the NFL is racist in its rules enforcement, even though such a disparity is what a fair and non-racist NFL policy would produce, given the greater number of black players who beat their kids and wives (assuming that the same pattern holds in the NFL as in the general population).

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So, what if we are all overlooking something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/02/us-head-injuries-idUSTRE75101D20110602

How many head traumas from football do you think Rice and Peterson have endured over their lifetimes?

 

[laughing dog]

your assumption is that the legal system is righteous all the way through.

I am not assuming anything about the legal system. I am saying that a disparity of greater % of blacks being punished for violent crimes implies nothing about any racism within the current criminal justice system, because such a disparity is just as consistent with a perfect and a non-racist current system.
There may be and likely is racism within the justice system and with other aspects of current society that contribute to criminal behavior. But the evidence of those things must be more direct, and cannot be inferred backwards from disparities in the outcomes of the criminal justice system itself as you and others here so frequently do.

You appear to misunderstand the argument. That disparity is consistent with the theory of a racist criminal justice system: it literally supports that theory. Nothing you argue contradicts that. The only thing you really can claim is that disparity is not convincing proof to you. Which would be relevant if anyone is making the claim that it is convincing proof.

 

[bigfield]

So, what if we are all overlooking something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/02/us-head-injuries-idUSTRE75101D20110602

How many head traumas from football do you think Rice and Peterson have endured over their lifetimes?

Nice find.

There have been calls in Australia for young adults to be barred from high-risk sports once they have suffered three concussions. The subject got a lot of media attention after AFL player Scott Stevens was forced into retirement due to brain damage, and again recently as Jonathan Brown was forced into retirement by concussion.

To employ a rule like that at all levels of American football, from grass roots to the NFL, would be incredibly difficult as many organisations would be unwilling to enforce it, but the positive consequences could be massive, not just for domestic violence but for mental health in general.

 

[doubtingt]

So, what if we are all overlooking something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/02/us-head-injuries-idUSTRE75101D20110602

How many head traumas from football do you think Rice and Peterson have endured over their lifetimes?

Its possible, but its pretty tough to tease apart the causality is such a study, given that being an aggressive person makes you more likely to get a head injury.
Even if one assumes a injury->violence causal relationship, the rates of violence were only 20% lower among those without head injuries. That means when those with head injuries committed violence, it had nothing to do with the injury 80% of the time.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So, what if we are all overlooking something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/02/us-head-injuries-idUSTRE75101D20110602

How many head traumas from football do you think Rice and Peterson have endured over their lifetimes?

Nice find.

thanks

There have been calls in Australia for young adults to be barred from high-risk sports once they have suffered three concussions. The subject got a lot of media attention after AFL player Scott Stevens was forced into retirement due to brain damage, and again recently as Jonathan Brown was forced into retirement by concussion.

To employ a rule like that at all levels of American football, from grass roots to the NFL, would be incredibly difficult as many organisations would be unwilling to enforce it, but the positive consequences could be massive, not just for domestic violence but for mental health in general.

Well, ever since these incident blew up, there has been something off about the debate. Something missing. No matter how you framed the initial question, the NFL always fades to the back ground and it becomes about the players and what's wrong with them.

Well, what if Football is what's wrong with them?

 

[doubtingt]

I am not assuming anything about the legal system. I am saying that a disparity of greater % of blacks being punished for violent crimes implies nothing about any racism within the current criminal justice system, because such a disparity is just as consistent with a perfect and a non-racist current system.
There may be and likely is racism within the justice system and with other aspects of current society that contribute to criminal behavior. But the evidence of those things must be more direct, and cannot be inferred backwards from disparities in the outcomes of the criminal justice system itself as you and others here so frequently do.

You appear to misunderstand the argument. That disparity is consistent with the theory of a racist criminal justice system: it literally supports that theory.

The disparity is just as consistent with the theory of a non-racist criminal justice system. Thus, the fact that there are disparities has zero impact upon the probability that the justice system is racist. Therefore, it does not "support" that theory and is not evidence for it. Consistency between a fact

Imagine that you show me a 4 of diamonds in a card deck. Then, I say the card you just showed me is a 4 of diamonds. The fact that was correct is "consist with" the theory that I have ESP. IS that support for and evidence for the theory that I have ESP? No, because what we already know about the world says that I would be correct, even without ESP because I saw the card.

Nothing you argue contradicts that. The only thing you really can claim is that disparity is not convincing proof to you.

No, it isn't even evidence in favor of that theory, not only to me. but to all rational people capable of evidence based reasoning and who grasp the principles of scientific thinking.

The disparity is an irrelevant fact in relation to whether their is anti-black racism in the system, because it is predicted to be true whether or not any such racism exists.